Champions League Semi Final: Liverpool - FC Barcelona 4-3 agg.

[LMTR14]

Anyone else losing all respect for Liverpool? All Barca social media pages are flooded with arrogant pool fans claiming how they are going to smash us. I've never understood why they were so hated despite being so unsuccessful in their recent history, but am learning fast - they show zero respect for Barca.

English clubs in my eyes all blend together. that's also why I'm not interested in that league at all, just like with italian clubs. after watching football for almost 30 years (granted, I used to be much more interested in the domestic (Austrian) league for the longest time - certainly not anymore) in my mind e.g. Inter doesn't have any other reputation than e.g. Chelsea. I don't like any Italian or English club, but I don't really hate any either.

and that is how we all should view them tonight - just a nondescript stepping stone on our path to the final. doesn't really matter whether we are playing good this season or not - we still won almost all games and just need to convert the chances we certainly will get tonight and we will go through. suarez and coutinho will decide our fate tonight

ps: if coutinho fucks up tonight, I never want to see him in our colours again. that guy has been getting on my nerves heavily recently. suarez can still stay next season as a sub and "special team" against opponents who have been booked (seriously, I would use him for that)

 

[sickstar]

Its no use bringing samples of matchs seasons ago

Latest performance of barcelona against levante was not really convincing, but it's understandable as we only need a win to lift the trophy and maintain fitness, avoid injury in the face of liverpool's meetup.

This match we should perform with higher motivation, especially messi. As i said, i barely have watched any liverpool's match so i cant comment.

What aspect are the most dangerous from them? In attacking role. Of course the forward, but other than that ? Really have little knowledge about them.

 

[Howlgrana]

English clubs I see as the mortal enemy - physical football that favours strength and speed is the antithesis of what Barcelona stand for. Some EPL clubs are worse than others of course but ultimately the whole league is a pernicious influence on footballing philosophy because of this ideology of strength, speed and machoness above all else.

This is why the stakes are high in this match - can the skill and tekkers of Barca beat the strength and speed of the athletes of Liverpool

 

[Centauri B]

48 hours exactly for the game. Will be our first real match against Champion material this season, hope we play our best this season, we will almost certainly need to.

This is our biggest game since 2015. Our players need to bring on their A game. Beat Liverpool -> Another Treble.

English clubs I see as the mortal enemy - physical football that favours strength and speed is the antithesis of what Barcelona stand for. Some EPL clubs are worse than others of course but ultimately the whole league is a pernicious influence on footballing philosophy because of this ideology of strength, speed and machoness above all else.

This is why the stakes are high in this match - can the skill and tekkers of Barca beat the strength and speed of the athletes of Liverpool

These are tired old cliches. Liverpool have very gifted football players who are also at their prime age-wise, which means they can run more than average. We have to deal with this.

You weren't a barca fan when we played Juve? We created 0 chances in 2 legs, and noone was surprised.

You are very badly mistaken.

In the tie against Juventus of two years ago, we were far the better team in both legs and created more chances. The xG stats confirm it.

Just like one poster said earlier, there was an excellent chance for Iniesta to make it 1-1 after an awesome dribble and pass from Messi. Suarez also had a great chance, again after an awesome dribble and pass from Messi. Neymar also had some decent chances.

In these games, scoring the first goal is crucial. Juventus went 1-0 inside the first 10 minutes and then scored a fantastic second through Dybala (I don't think he has done anything good ever since) This allowed to just sit back with all players and just try and hit us on the counter or through set-pieces.

Barcelona going to Anfield with 1-0 win. We would be fucked. They will crush us at Anfield. We need at least 2 or 3 goals and zero for them to go through from this.

Beat them 1-0 at home, and then the chances of also beating at Anfield, rise immensely.

 

[Howlgrana]

These are tired old cliches. Liverpool have very gifted football players who are also at their prime age-wise, which means they can run more than average. We have to deal with this.

Yes of course they have skill. It is not a cliche though. I was born and live in England and have studied this for my university degree many years ago. The EPL is a little better now but coaches here will pick youth players (pre-16) based on strength and 'pace' above skill. An Iniesta or Xavi (or Arthur) would have never got out the youth footy system here 15 years ago or now.

 

[sickstar]

So i went and watch their huddersfield match preview.

Salah seems to be quite in a quite dazzling condition atm, quick feet, the energy, the high confidence. He's a constant threat. Two goals plus one assist.

Also mane nearly had a header hattrick if his third attempt didnt hit the post. He's good in air.
Also they have players with good long ball pass.

It may perhaps due to huddersfield was late to anticipate the pass/ give too much space and also weak in positioning, or it is liverpool who is that good.

Huddersfield actually has some decent chances but their finishing was so poor.
So i wouldn't say that liverpool's defence is without hole.

 

[Howlgrana]

So i went and watch their huddersfield match preview.

Salah seems to be quite in a quite dazzling condition atm, quick feet, the energy, the high confidence. He's a constant threat. Two goals plus one assist.

Also mane nearly had a header hattrick if his third attempt didnt hit the post. He's good in air.
Also they have players with good long ball pass.

It may perhaps due to huddersfield was late to anticipate the pass/ give too much space and also weak in positioning, or it is liverpool who is that good.

Huddersfield actually has some decent chances but their finishing was so poor.
So i wouldn't say that liverpool's defence is without hole.

Huddersfield are absolutely shite though so it is hard to gauge. Letting the Scousers score in the first 8 seconds remember...at Anfield, is only gonna lead to domination and embarrassment for a bottom of the table club.

 

[Ursegor]

Now, hold on a minute.

What are the huges hole in the squad? That we don't have a world class RB? Heh, neither does anybody else. Our striker is past it? Could be. Europe's top teams all have 30+ strikers. Benzema, Ronaldo, Aguero, Lewandowski, Diego Costa etc.

This is a actually a great example why I hate long-winded Internet discussions. It will take walls of texts to make myself abundandly clear.

I said our problem is that Messi does not play on the right wing and the lack of elite rightback amplifies the right-wing problem even more. I did not say we have no elite rightback and that alone is a problem.

The big criticism that we are talking about here is that we do not play the classic Barca Cruyff way, right? Right. Now explain to me how you want to play positional football with a high press with a player who walks around 87 out of 90 minutes with almost 0 defensive contribution, no off the ball movement other than running into the box for Alba return balls and who takes up whichever positions he wants whenever he feels like it? No matter how good he might be with the ball at his feet.

There would be only 2 solutions to mitigate Messi's shortcomings. 3 man backline (good luck with the likes of Pique and Busquets) or go back to false 9 system with 2 hardworking goalscoring wingers (also good luck with Malcom and Dembélé, if you think these are the hardworking goalscoring wingers that we should base a system around).

Then, what is the big hole in the squad? We have no rightwinger + we have no elite rightback who can dominate the side on his own like Alves could. So we have Roberto/Semedo running, stopping and then passing back or sideways as they have no one to combine with. We have Rakitic assuming Messi's defensive responsibilities, he has been Messi's personal water carrier ever since he joined. Messi's role, when he isn't an out and out false 9, requires us to do things differently and dare I say, makes it impossible to play any sort "Cruyffian" football.

 

[serghei]

This is a actually a great example why I hate long-winded Internet discussions. It will take walls of texts to make myself abundandly clear.

I said our problem is that Messi does not play on the right wing and the lack of elite rightback amplifies the right-wing problem even more. I did not say we have no elite rightback and that alone is a problem.

The big criticism that we are talking about here is that we do not play the classic Barca Cruyff way, right? Right. Now explain to me how you want to play positional football with a high press with a player who walks around 87 out of 90 minutes with almost 0 defensive contribution, no off the ball movement other than running into the box for Alba return balls and who takes up whichever positions he wants whenever he feels like it? No matter how good he might be with the ball at his feet.

There would be only 2 solutions to mitigate Messi's shortcomings. 3 man backline (good luck with the likes of Pique and Busquets) or go back to false 9 system with 2 hardworking goalscoring wingers (also good luck with Malcom and Dembélé, if you think these are the hardworking goalscoring wingers that we should base a system around).

Then, what is the big hole in the squad? We have no rightwinger + we have no elite rightback who can dominate the side on his own like Alves could. So we have Roberto/Semedo running, stopping and then passing back or sideways as they have no one to combine with. We have Rakitic assuming Messi's defensive responsibilities, he has been Messi's personal water carrier ever since he joined. Messi's role, when he isn't an out and out false 9, requires us to do things differently and dare I say, makes it impossible to play any sort "Cruyffian" football.

But, wouldn't you say Messi's position is something that lies within the attributes of the manager? What is the manager if not the person who sets the tactics and gives the players tactical roles to fulfill? One would say that finding a balanced shape which includes Messi is the no1 objective of a Barca manager in the 2010's. By your own accord, Valverde is not doing a great job, since, in your opinion, there are huge holes in the team.

You think every single manager in world football would be unable to make Messi a bit more disciplined and consistent with his workrate? I disagree if so. The Messi problem has been made worse by managers who gave him way too much freedom, because it was an easy and sure way to win league titles almost. It started with Tito, and now continues with Valverde 6 years later. With Lucho, in 2014-15 Messi has been the best because he was also the most disciplined regarding the space he operates in.

Alves never did the flank on his own mind you. That's why we talk about Alvessi here, there was always some partnership involved. We played a very clear 4-3-3 during almost all of Alves' time here so he had a partner in that flank to combine with constantly. So what we're asking from our RBs is something we didn't even ask from Alves, which in my opinion is the best fullback I've seen since 1998 since I started following football seriously.

But, again, it comes to the same point. Whose job it is to solve Messi's positional chaos if not the manager's (and obviously the player in question)? Messi and Valverde are first to blame for this issue, which, when Messi is not in god-mode (which is happening more frequently at this level), has been one of the main causes in the last 3 years in our CL failures. The overall shape of the team is more important than one player's individual performance.

 

[TrueCule]

This is a actually a great example why I hate long-winded Internet discussions. It will take walls of texts to make myself abundandly clear.

I said our problem is that Messi does not play on the right wing and the lack of elite rightback amplifies the right-wing problem even more. I did not say we have no elite rightback and that alone is a problem.

The big criticism that we are talking about here is that we do not play the classic Barca Cruyff way, right? Right. Now explain to me how you want to play positional football with a high press with a player who walks around 87 out of 90 minutes with almost 0 defensive contribution, no off the ball movement other than running into the box for Alba return balls and who takes up whichever positions he wants whenever he feels like it? No matter how good he might be with the ball at his feet.

There would be only 2 solutions to mitigate Messi's shortcomings. 3 man backline (good luck with the likes of Pique and Busquets) or go back to false 9 system with 2 hardworking goalscoring wingers (also good luck with Malcom and Dembélé, if you think these are the hardworking goalscoring wingers that we should base a system around).

Then, what is the big hole in the squad? We have no rightwinger + we have no elite rightback who can dominate the side on his own like Alves could. So we have Roberto/Semedo running, stopping and then passing back or sideways as they have no one to combine with. We have Rakitic assuming Messi's defensive responsibilities, he has been Messi's personal water carrier ever since he joined. Messi's role, when he isn't an out and out false 9, requires us to do things differently and dare I say, makes it impossible to play any sort "Cruyffian" football.

Alba does what Alves in his prime did. In Pep's era we had a world class right back and average LB in Abidal. Now it's vica versa. We have a world class LB and an average RB. Roberto and Semedo both do their job just fine.

 

[Lightning f57]

Hi everybody, new to this forum and I am a Liverpool fan.

I thought I would converse with you guys to get your views on the match up. I know there is allot being said at other forums and social media outlets and some Liverpool fans going over the top, the fans I know are being cautious and measured. Here is my thoughts and reasons on why I think Barca are favourites for the semis.

- Serial winners over many years, winning the CL not that long ago, a number of that experience squad remains so will deal good in pressure situations.
- Un-beaten at Camp Nou in Europe since 2013 - that place is a fortress.
- We dont have great away form, the Bayern game was different because I think Kovac messed up the formation and strategy, Bayern played too cagey and had a few players suspended.
- We still have PL obligations and have tough away game this Saturday, Barca can rest most of their players now the league is wrapped up.
- Not 100% sure Firmino is fit, he sets the tempo for the high press with the team a key cog in Klopps strategy.
- You have Messi!!

I believe the team see themselves as underdogs, Liverpool has emerged the last year or so but its still work in progress.

 

[serghei]

So, [MENTION=12215]Ursegor[/MENTION], since you don't want to write walls of text, I guess your overall view on Messi, Valverde and the reasonable expectations from this team is the following:

Messi is unable to follow tactical plans and instructions under any manager, and Valverde should be excused of any issues which derive from Messi's positional deficiencies. He's doing the best he can with a situation which is already past the point of no return.

So, what Valverde is doing with this situation is trying to minimize the way in which Messi's poor workrate and positional game is affecting us. Trying to treat the effect, rather than cure the cause so to speak. And we should all be grateful, because, with a team that has clear issues, he's found ways to dominate both Atletico and Real Madrid, and win probably back to back domestic doubles. Which is more than we can realistically expect with this team at this stage.

Am I close?

If we couple that with your comments on the other team, Liverpool for instance, in this semifinal it's two visibly flawed teams put under pressure, and all that's left in this tie is to see who cracks up under pressure. And your money are on Liverpool cracking and us winning the whole thing.

 

[BigBarcaBoy]

Yes of course they have skill. It is not a cliche though. I was born and live in England and have studied this for my university degree many years ago. The EPL is a little better now but coaches here will pick youth players (pre-16) based on strength and 'pace' above skill. An Iniesta or Xavi (or Arthur) would have never got out the youth footy system here 15 years ago or now.

Aa someone who watches a fair bit of academy football in england now that is certainly changing for the better

 

[Howlgrana]

Aa someone who watches a fair bit of academy football in england now that is certainly changing for the better

It's still far behind Spain though, but I am glad it is changing.

EDIT: Another key thing in the style of football is the climate. Spain is a hot country, you run around like a headless chicken in that heat you're knackered. That's why there is more emphasis on running and fitness in EPL, the climate allows it. So although EPL is getting more technique based coaching, it will never be as advanced as Spain as there will always be this need for running and speed/strength.

 

[henias]

How ironic for Valverde fans to complain about being too harsh on EV, yet is constantly whining about how the squad is never ever good enough for him. As long there's no Xavi and Iniesta, they are all incapable of playing decent football, even less so than EPL teams.

This excuse has been used countless times even when we had Andre Gomes. Yet we are back with it again this season, something to fall back on in case EV fails.

EV's faults are clear to see, which will come biting back at him if we are not careful or Messi having an off day. His approach has always been "try something that previously worked or gotten results and hopefully it works out", but he has no inkling about making use of the players strength to the best of their abilities. They are also always fillers to accomodate the seniors, less so for the greater good of the whole team.

A "poisoned chalice" as I may put it, while it may seem like a flawless bed of roses, underlying cracks and slow development of the squad can cause us to go stagnant once again.

At this stage the lack of competition from the Spanish league has been giving him loads of leeway and room for mistakes, but imagine having a much tougher competition, something like Roma could happen again.

No way EV can keep relying on veterans to pull a rabbit out of the hat. Evidently, Messi is extremely motivated this year and so if anything happens, I don't think there should be excuses. It's honestly the best chance to win a treble, I won't be too sure about this next season.