Thiago Silva

KingMessi

SiempreBlaugrana
I feel like you guys aren't seeing eye to eye on the definition of a large club. Leo_Messi, I feel, defines a large club in terms of prestige, historical success, current success, the size of the global fanbase, and the strength of the squad. Whereas Juvens is looking at present success.

By the latter definition, PSG is most definitely at least top 10 in Europe and an argument could be made for them being top 5. By Leo_Messi's definition, even if we only like ~15 years back, I'm sure Manchester United or AC Milan would make the list before PSG does.
 

Jair Ventura

New member
I feel like you guys aren't seeing eye to eye on the definition of a large club. Leo_Messi, I feel, defines a large club in terms of prestige, historical success, current success, the size of the global fanbase, and the strength of the squad. Whereas Juvens is looking at present success.

I think you're correct for the most part. Though, I include strength of squad in my analysis.

By the latter definition, PSG is most definitely at least top 10 in Europe and an argument could be made for them being top 5. By Leo_Messi's definition, even if we only like ~15 years back, I'm sure Manchester United or AC Milan would make the list before PSG does.

I think AC Milan is a perfect example of why historical success is irrelevant in these discussions. It's nice to have trophies to point to from 25 year ago, but unless you're winning right now that isn't doing much for you today or in the future.
 

KingMessi

SiempreBlaugrana
I think you're correct for the most part. Though, I include strength of squad in my analysis.

I think AC Milan is a perfect example of why historical success is irrelevant in these discussions. It's nice to have trophies to point to from 25 year ago, but unless you're winning right now that isn't doing much for you today or in the future.

Yes, strength of the squad, second time around, I mashed together with present success, because a strong squad usually sets up you for success.

And I agree with you. You always have to keep your eyes forward, because it's not about what you've done in the past, it's about what you're doing now, and what you'll be doing in the future.
 

Leo_Messi

New member
Yes, you're jealous of PSG's wealth. Tell us more.



- Moscow is an outlier for obvious reasons, while Turkey has only been a member of the European union since 2005.

- London supports 13 professional teams and features over 80 amateur leagues. Not sure what you're talking about here.

But hey, what are some of the other cities that fit the criteria of most populated in Europe?

3. London - Chelsea, Arsenal

4. Saint Peterburg - Zenit

6. Madrid - Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid

7. Rome - Roma, Lazio

9. Paris - PSG

16. Barcelona - Barcelona

17. Munich - Bayern Munich

19. Milan - A.C. Milan, Inter Milan


You're wrong, again.



I apologize, I didn't realize you couldn't read, but I guess I should've taken a hint by now. In any case, the article featured a CEIS report about the top talent producing clubs of the big 5 leagues. Barca ranked number 1, PSG ranked number 5. That's the association.



*yawn*

As I am making fun of your inability to answer this simple question:

"Which clubs in Europe, beyond Barca, RM, and Bayern are larger/stronger/more capable than Paris? I'll wait as you struggle to come up with more than three or four clubs, all of which will be debatable. Afterwards, once we've determined that Paris is among the top 10 clubs in Europe, when 5 years previous they weren't even top 30, you'll be forced to concede that you were wrong to contradict a point that was relatively inarguable."

Still waiting.



One can hope.

Are you joking again? FCB is a richer club so what is there to be jealous about? Of being a toy in the hands of rich Qatari Bedouins? Of only becoming relevant due to Qatari oil and gas money? Of being ridiculed/disliked in all of Europe for that alongside Man City and similar nouveau riche clubs? Of being sanctioned by UEFA due to violating the FFP rules?

What I wrote are facts. Everyone knows about them.

You are clueless as usual. Since when has Turkey become a part of the EU?:lol:

Your list is useless. What is so hard for you to grasp? PSG is nowhere near being one of the most supported teams in Europe. Paris or not.

Do you expect me to read a whole report? You were quoting La Masia which was totally irrelevant.

Yet funnily enough you were unable to mention even 3-4 homegrown talents of any worth.

Stronger in terms of what? Capable in terms of what? Of only being able to reach the CL quarterfinals in the span of 4 seasons?

Juventus, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Atlético Madrid, AC Milan, Inter, Dortmund, Chelsea, Ajax, Marseille etc. (countless of other clubs) are all bigger clubs historically and more decorated clubs just to mention a few besides those you listed yourself.

In terms of actual performances in Europe in the past 4 seasons then Chelsea, Dortmund, Juventus and Atlético Madrid.

PSG is number 11 on the UEFA coefficient list (team ranking) since the 2010-2011 season.

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2015.html

So as I wrote since the beginning then you are not close to being the 4th strongest team in Europe as you delude yourself with. At least this is not what the ground realities (results) tell us. Only in terms or revenue but you don't win trophies for such an "achievement" at all and especially not in your case.:lol:
 
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Vlom

Previously known as Mehssi
Wut ? Jaleous of PSG's wealth ? Seriously Juvens now that's a eurosport forum level of comment ..
 

Leo_Messi

New member
Wut ? Jaleous of PSG's wealth ? Seriously Juvens now that's a eurosport forum level of comment ..

How can I as a FCB socio be jealous of a club like PSG? I am not sure if he realizes that FCB's revenue is bigger than that of PSG and that the value of FCB as a club is several times bigger than that of PSG. Let alone our assets being much more valuable.

If those Qataris (he seems to admire them a lot) who helped transform PSG from mediocrity overnight due to oil/gas money could buy FCB tomorrow they would leave PSG in an instance.

Jealous.:lol:

But indeed I do have a problem by principle with oil clubs such as Man City and PSG. That's why I enjoy their constant failures in Europe. Long may they continue.
 
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Jair Ventura

New member
Are you joking again? FCB is a richer club so what is there to be jealous about? Of being a toy in the hands of rich Qatari Bedouins? Of only becoming relevant due to Qatari oil and gas money? Of being ridiculed/disliked in all of Europe for that alongside Man City and similar nouveau riche clubs?

The envy is real.

Of being sanctioned by UEFA due to violating the FFP rules?

Isn't Barca under a transfer ban?

Your list is useless. What is so hard for you to grasp? PSG is nowhere near being one of the most supported teams in Europe. Paris or not.

On the contrary, the list has plenty of use. It emphatically contradicts your statement of:

By that logic the best clubs would be based in the most populous cities of Europe (Moscow, Istanbul, London and Paris) but they are not.

Let's move along now.

Do you expect me to read a whole report? You were quoting La Masia which was totally irrelevant.

Not at all. Which is why I linked a graph reflecting the data, but I guess clicking on it proved too difficult for you. The report itself featured the same graphs, so I assume scrolling down a bit most have been equally as trying.

Yet funnily enough you were unable to mention even 3-4 homegrown talents of any worth.

Adrien Rabiot, Alphonse Arreola, Jean Kevin Augustin.

Stronger in terms of what? Capable in terms of what? Of only being able to reach the CL quarterfinals in the span of 4 seasons?

Stronger in terms of quality of their current squad. More capable in terms of producing talent, activity and success on the transfer market, winning league titles.

Juventus, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Atlético Madrid, AC Milan, Inter, Dortmund, Chelsea, Ajax, Marseille etc. (countless of other clubs) are all bigger clubs historically and more decorated clubs just to mention a few besides those you listed yourself.

If you want to continue discussing "historical success and decorations" you should find a new thread to do it in and a new person to do it with. Everyone else has agreed we're discussing current success, being it's most appropriate to the context of the discussion, continuing to stray away to talk about irrelevancies does nothing but take away from the discussion. It's borderline trolling.

In any case, quite ironic that you continually insult PSG for only reaching the quarter finals three times in three seasons, citing that fact as being one of the reason they can't be considered a top club when many of the clubs you've cited above haven't reached the quarters at all: Liverpool, Arsenal, AC Milan, Inter, Ajax, and Marseille. And if they have, they've recently struggled: Man U, Dortmund.

In terms of actual performances in Europe in the past 4 years then Chelsea, Dortmund, Juventus and Atlético Madrid.

I notice how you've stretched the frame of reference to 4 seasons when it originally was three, after Paris was purchased by the Qatari's, but whatever.

Paris dispatched Chelsea this season. Outplayed them through both legs, even down to 10 men.

Dortmund not only excited the UCL earlier than Paris this season but are below .500 in their own league. They're looking at failing to qualify for either the CL or the Europa.

Juventus - Comparable. Don't believe their roster is as talented nor are they aren't as strong financially - Meaning they have to sell their Pogba whereas Paris gets to hold onto their Veratti. Monaco certainly played Juventus better than they've played Paris, looking relatively equal all things considered, only losing due to a questionable penalty call. But, Juventus is fair.

Atletico may have been awesome last season, but they aren't the same side. Pretty much all I said of Juventus applies to this Atletico as well. Their roster isn't as strong, they aren't as prepared for the future, and they aren't as competitive on the transfer market. But, fair though.

So, at best that's 7 clubs that are superior to PSG continentally by your own admission, a few of which are more than arguable, yet Paris isn't one of the largest clubs in Europe?

PSG is placed 11 on the UEFA coefficient list ranking of teams since the 2010-2011 season.

http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2015.html

I know. What's hilarious is you've been harping on UEFA coefficients, about that being the end all be all, and then went onto name a bunch of clubs that are supposedly superior to Paris that fall under them in the UEFA club coefficients.
 

Jair Ventura

New member
How can I as a FCB socio be jealous of a club like PSG? I am not sure if he realizes that FCB's revenue

I'm not sure you realize that revenue is irrelevant to wealth, but PSG is closing even that gap.

is bigger than that of PSG and that the value of FCB as a club is several times bigger than that of PSG. Let alone our assets being much more valuable.

Sure, yesterday and today. But that won't be the case in 10 years.

But indeed I do have a problem by principle with oil clubs such as Man City and PSG. That's why I enjoy their constant failures in Europe. Long may they continue.

*shrugs*

We all have our principles. Mine dictate I have a problem with debtors clubs. :lucho2:
 

Vlom

Previously known as Mehssi
Sure, yesterday and today. But that won't be the case in 10 years.

Omg .. are you trying really hard for us to hate PSG or what ?

The level of arrogance is sky high ! Suddenly, I'm happy we took PSG to the freaking cleaners !!!
 

Icarium

Lifestealer
debtors? lol... we are not the one who got fined for ffp violation. Remember? and that 200M a year sponsorship deal. what a joke. FFP is just a useless regulation and it is only helping uefa to fill their pockets.
 

Jair Ventura

New member
Omg .. are you trying really hard for us to hate PSG or what ?

I'd wager I don't have much say on the matter one way or the other.

The level of arrogance is sky high ! Suddenly, I'm happy we took PSG to the freaking cleaners !!!

It isn't arrogance, it's economics. PSG was purchased in 2011 for $130 million. 3 years later, in May of 2014, they were valued at $415 million, placing them 15th on the list of the worlds most valuable clubs in only their first appearance. If this rate of growth continues, and all indications are that it will so long as investments remain consistent, Paris could break into the top 10 in as little as 2 years, and the top 5 in 5-10.
 
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KingMessi

SiempreBlaugrana
I'd wager I don't have much say in the matter one way or the other.



It isn't arrogance, it's economics. PSG was purchased in 2011 for $130 million. 3 years later, in May of 2014, they were valued at $415 million, placing them 15th on the list of the worlds most valuable clubs in only their first appearance. If this rate of growth continues, and all indications are that it will so long as investments remain consistent, Paris could break into the top 10 in as little as 2 years, and the top 5 in 5-10.

You ought to know that that rate will likely not stay constant.
 

Bertus

New member
Omg .. are you trying really hard for us to hate PSG or what ?

The level of arrogance is sky high ! Suddenly, I'm happy we took PSG to the freaking cleaners !!!
Arrogance?

Reminds me who was the arrogant board who believed twice in a row that they could force their way and steal TS and marquinhos from PSG.

Who was the arrogant retard that led Barca to pursue TS till the very end in summer 2013 leading the club to not sign anyone.

Who was the arrogant Boss that plainly said in a press conference "I don't understand why a player (TS in this case) would not pick Barca".

Barca did many mistakes because of that arrogance.

A chance Lucho is not the same and usually has plan B or even plan C.

But even so, the arrogant board continue to make retarded signing like Douglas and Vermi.

No one can call PSG or their fans arrogant when looking at what Barca did because of their high attitude towards Clubs that are not called RM or Bayern.
 

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