Messi vs CR7 in CL

Cruyff-Total Football said:

Tell me one player who could create chances for Messi as consistently as Kroos, Isco, Asensio, Modric, Marcelo other than Iniesta, I will accept that I'm biased.

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Man, a lot of those passes he receives are good passes, but are not jaw dropping stuff that leaves Ronaldo completely alone for a tap in. Many many many Barca fans completely underrate 2 key parts in Ronaldo's goals that are just his own mastery of being a fucking legendary striker. One is his movement. He just roasts opponents with his diverse tactics of baiting defenders, faking near post claims than going for the far post corner instead, attacking channels frequently, pulling defenders around then accelerating when they are flat footed, there's a whole array of diversion tactics before any kind of service is made that can be found in textbook attacking tactics and ploys. And some of those tactics he uses are probably custom made for specific defenders. They probably discuss those things in tactical sessions before the game. Because defenders, like attackers, have strong points and weak points. Like Suarez is not great in link-up and has a heavy touch a lot of times, some defenders are more likely to be tricked by some specific movements. You see, defenders aren't magicians. They don't have 360 degrees vision, there's a lot of things that happens around them, but they are positioned in a way where they can always be tricked. You think you're right next to Ronaldo but before you know it, he's somewhere else poping up and scoring and you're left marking no one. The game favors attackers.

And that's only the movement part that allows him to get on the perfect trajectory of a lot of passes, crosses, cutbacks etc. that are not 'genius playmaking' stuff as it's made out to be. But it's not enough to get you there, you have to have the right shooting technique to score once that gap in time and space is created and the defender is caught off guard. And he has that too. His 1st goal vs Juve is hugely underrated and is even more of a proof of his amazing killer instincts than the praised overhead kick (for good reason). The amount of space he has to place a shot there is minimal and the window of opportunity is slim. Gap is there for a very short time, and there's 2 Juve players I think who would've got there and blocked the shot, but Ronaldo goes for a quick, sharp, outside of the boot finish, a very difficult shot technically. You have to time that perfectly because a split second late and it's a misshit (and Ronaldo has had miss hits specifically because he goes for technically complex executions a lot of time). Some other striker would've went with the classic execution, which would've take a longer prep time, and the play would've ended with a last minute tackle by Chiellini and people praising him for being this old school great defender. But the gap was there, and Ronaldo choose the right execution, this very sharp touch with the exterior of the boot and it's 1-0 in the 3rd minute. Hammerblow for Juve. Imagine starting a game in which away goals are key and being 1-0 down in 5 mins.

So, bottom line, Ronaldo is an expert at moving, attacking space and tricking defenders. That's why he always appears to be in space in areas where it's usually very crowded. Because he moves a lot. And he is also pretty great at shooting the ball.

People on here are trying to make it sound like Messi has been some hero in these recent CL campaigns while the rest of the team let him down. That's completely false and deluded.

We were poor in the 2013, 2014, 2016 and 2017 CL campaigns, even terrible at times with Messi. Messi wasn't some standout player in those knockout stages putting on heroic performances while the rest of Barca crumbled. He was playing very ordinary himself and wasn't exempt from criticism, especially during those Atletico matches.

The only people on here who need to wake-up are those who refuse to accept that Barca and Messi have been poor in the CL KO stages in recent years (2015 excluded).

Devils said:

People on here are trying to make it sound like Messi has been some hero in these recent CL campaigns while the rest of the team let him down. That's completely false and deluded.

We were poor in the 2013, 2014, 2016 and 2017 CL campaigns, even terrible at times with Messi. Messi wasn't some standout player in those knockout stages putting on heroic performances while the rest of Barca crumbled. He was playing very ordinary himself and wasn't exempt from criticism, especially during those Atletico matches.

The only people on here who need to wake-up are those who refuse to accept that Barca and Messi have been poor in the CL KO stages in recent years (2015 excluded).

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I agree almost completely but 2013 (messidependencia) and 2017 campaigns we also had a disastrous midfield/defense.

2014 and 2016, messi could have and should have done A LOT more versus atletico. those 2 were completely winnable ties, seeing as real beat atletico 4 times in a row in the same period. especially 2016 when he had suarez, snakemar jr., and some semblance of a midfield.

serghei said:

Man, a lot of those passes he receives are good passes, but are not jaw dropping stuff that leaves Ronaldo completely alone for a tap in. Many many many Barca fans completely underrate 2 key parts in Ronaldo's goals that are just his own mastery of being a fucking legendary striker. One is his movement. He just roasts opponents with his diverse tactics of baiting defenders, faking near post claims than going for the far post corner instead, attacking channels frequently, pulling defenders around then accelerating when they are flat footed, there's a whole array of diversion tactics before any kind of service is made that can be found in textbook attacking tactics and ploys. And some of those tactics he uses are probably custom made for specific defenders. They probably discuss those things in tactical sessions before the game. Because defenders, like attackers, have strong points and weak points. Like Suarez is not great in link-up and has a heavy touch a lot of times, some defenders are more likely to be tricked by some specific movements. You see, defenders aren't magicians. They don't have 360 degrees vision, there's a lot of things that happens around them, but they are positioned in a way where they can always be tricked. You think you're right next to Ronaldo but before you know it, he's somewhere else poping up and scoring and you're left marking no one. The game favors attackers.

And that's only the movement part that allows him to get on the perfect trajectory of a lot of passes, crosses, cutbacks etc. that are not 'genius playmaking' stuff as it's made out to be. But it's not enough to get you there, you have to have the right shooting technique to score once that gap in time and space is created and the defender is caught off guard. And he has that too. His 1st goal vs Juve is hugely underrated and is even more of a proof of his amazing killer instincts than the praised overhead kick (for good reason). The amount of space he has to place a shot there is minimal and the window of opportunity is slim. Gap is there for a very short time, and there's 2 Juve players I think who would've got there and blocked the shot, but Ronaldo goes for a quick, sharp, outside of the boot finish, a very difficult shot technically. You have to time that perfectly because a split second late and it's a misshit (and Ronaldo has had miss hits specifically because he goes for technically complex executions a lot of time). Some other striker would've went with the classic execution, which would've take a longer prep time, and the play would've ended with a last minute tackle by Chiellini.

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When I saw that goal, it was so arcade. They could've practiced the same sequence of movements with Isco and Asensio for 50 times in training. It was so arcade. It's not momentary decision from Isco, Ronaldo and Benzema. Isco knew when to cross and where to cross, Benzema knew how to deceive those brainless idiots and Ronaldo knew when to start the run and he finished it with the least time consuming and most efficient way towards the least accessible corner of goal.

The only consequential statement I can infer from that is, Zidane knew Chellini and Barzagli are old craps who wait until the last second tackle of the ball and he sequenced this same pattern in training grounds. It was ridiculous and horrendous defending from them. They didn't learn from the third goal Ronaldo scored in the last final.

I hate Ronaldo not because he plays for RM but because of what he is. But I always want to reason. There's much much more to the goals RM score. They live for CL matches. They prepare much better than everyone else. For international break, Valverde said that it will give him more time to analyze matches. And considering that league was over long before for RM, they're putting it all towards CL matches. They don't need international break to analyze. They play only one tournament.

KingLeo10 said:

I agree almost completely but 2013 (messidependencia) and 2017 campaigns we also had a disastrous midfield/defense.

2014 and 2016, messi could have and should have done A LOT more versus atletico. those 2 were completely winnable ties, seeing as real beat atletico 4 times in a row in the same period. especially 2016 when he had suarez, snakemar jr., and some semblance of a midfield.

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2013 should have an asterisk because we didn't have a manager for most of that season but Messi was still performing very well in the domestic competitions. We were still quite poor in CL though. Getting battered by Milan at in Italy an then making a great comeback (inspired by Leo). Then beating PSG on away goals in which both matches ended a draw and then getting battered by Bayern of which Leo was out injured.

2016/2017, we were horrid in the CL and everyone shares blame on that and not even Leo can be exempt from that. Just awful. Barcelona nor Messi deserved any praise for that campaign.

To be honest timing also plays its part. Real Madrid's peak era is coming at a time when there is no other elite team out there, only oil money pretenders like PSG and City who are not great overnight just because they spent trillions.

During our peak with Xavi and Iniesta we competed against Alex Ferguson's CL winning Manchester United team (including Ronaldo at that time), against Chelsea with Cech, Terry, Lampard, Essien, Ballack, Drogba all in their primes, against the best Inter Milan team in their entire history pulling the most memorable park-the-bus performance of all time and of course against Real Madrid themselves who went on to win La Liga with 100 points under Mourinho.

Against whom is Real competing these days? Bayern with 35 year old wingers, Atletico who are punching way above their weight, Juventus who were only great for a short time when they had that Marchisio-Vidal-Pirlo-Pogba midfield (a team like Tottenham should have annihilated them this season) and a Barca which needs to play defensive football now because you can't do much else with a midfield consisting of Gomes, Paulinho, Rakitic, Sergi Roberto and Iniesta on his last legs.

Tough luck. There is no other great team out there. We somehow compete with tactical discipline + Messi + lots of experience. That's all.

Devils said:

People on here are trying to make it sound like Messi has been some hero in these recent CL campaigns while the rest of the team let him down. That's completely false and deluded.

We were poor in the 2013, 2014, 2016 and 2017 CL campaigns, even terrible at times with Messi. Messi wasn't some standout player in those knockout stages putting on heroic performances while the rest of Barca crumbled. He was playing very ordinary himself and wasn't exempt from criticism, especially during those Atletico matches.

The only people on here who need to wake-up are those who refuse to accept that Barca and Messi have been poor in the CL KO stages in recent years (2015 excluded).

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No one is saying that Leo was superb in those games but football is a team sport! Maybe there is a small amount of games where one player can decide on his own but in CL where you play against Real, Bayern, Juve etc. if entire team sucks there is no chance in hell one player can do it all alone. If you don't have support of your teammates than you can't do shit. During last 3 years entire Real is working perfectly in CL so Ronaldo only has to do his share of work while in some games we hopped that Messi will do it all alone. We expected from him to create and score. Basically to provide an assist to himself! I will never say that Ronaldo isn't a superb player, of course he is, but lets' be honest here and admit that Real currently has better and more compact team overall especially in the midfield.

The one who scores will always be a hero, maybe even sometimes when others deserve a praise more than scorer does. We have a perfect example when we beat RM last year. It was all about Messi but let's be honest that run from Roberto was more impressive than the goal alone. The point is, if team functions Messi will be superb so will Ronaldo but if entire team plays bad there is basically zero chance that only one player alone can change the course of the game. As I said it can happen but hardly against stronger teams so that's the reason why Leo can sometimes win the game alone against Malaga but not against Juve or Real.

Raketa10 said:

Goal scoring: 0,80 vs 0,81 ratio. If you are talking ONLY about goal scoring than why are you mentioning elimination rounds? Stay consistent than.

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Alright, I agree that it sometimes seem a bit arbitrary where to draw the line - most goals in CL QF is not exactly something meaningful if you look at it beforehand..
But let us be clear: This is not a discussion about who is best, but who scores the most decisive goals and how many of the in CL. And in that specific discussion Ronaldo has gone further than Messi in the recent years.

No-one says that Messi can't keep up with him during his later years or even end up scoring more in total in CL, but the last 3 years Ronaldo has been more safe to rely on in decisive CL-moments.. And it is perfectly possible to say that without it being an attack on Messi..

Stoichkov1 said:

Messi has been running 8km per match since 2012.

In 2015 he had good performances but actually he was running 8km per match like every year.

He didn't run less against Roma yesterday.

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I'm not talking about running and distance covered. I'm talking specifically about Messi's lack of movement in possession leading to a congested area in the center of the pitch, not helping opening up passing lanes for himself or others, forcing our midfielders to play the ball out wide, playing right into the opposition's plan.

I'm not saying Messi should move or run like Cristiano Ronaldo or anyone else either. All I'm saying is, in 2014, 2016 and 2017, Messi was 90% of the time, simply standing there instead of trying to force a move by trying to shake off those players following him, or at least moving so the players in charge of following him were drawn out of position for others to exploit.

We don't have Modric or Kroos or Marcelo, but that doesn't mean you make the job harder for Iniesta, Busquets and Rakitic by simply being lazy and not moving whatsoever. The GOAT cannot and should not stand still and sulk most of the game. Sure he dropped down deep from time to time, but that's it. When the team we played against were deep into their half and we needed our players to move to draw them out of position and create something, Messi was often just standing there waiting to get the ball instead of making a conscious effort to actually get it.

My previous posts above say exactly the same and I've also acknowledged he's way more active this year and doing what he should have done the previous years.

Not saying he was shit or worse than everyone else, but just delivering a very fair criticism of Messi's involvement in 3/4 previous CL campaigns.

Ursegor said:

To be honest timing also plays its part. Real Madrid's peak era is coming at a time when there is no other elite team out there, only oil money pretenders like PSG and City who are not great overnight just because they spent trillions.

During our peak with Xavi and Iniesta we competed against Alex Ferguson's CL winning Manchester United team (including Ronaldo at that time), against Chelsea with Cech, Terry, Lampard, Essien, Ballack, Drogba all in their primes, against the best Inter Milan team in their entire history pulling the most memorable park-the-bus performance of all time and of course against Real Madrid themselves who went on to win La Liga with 100 points under Mourinho.

Against whom is Real competing these days? Bayern with 35 year old wingers, Atletico who are punching way above their weight, Juventus who were only great for a short time when they had that Marchisio-Vidal-Pirlo-Pogba midfield (a team like Tottenham should have annihilated them this season) and a Barca which needs to play defensive football now because you can't do much else with a midfield consisting of Gomes, Paulinho, Rakitic, Sergi Roberto and Iniesta on his last legs.

Tough luck. There is no other great team out there. We somehow compete with tactical discipline + Messi + lots of experience. That's all.

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True. And still, despite this, Madrid aren't good enough to go on all fronts. Mostly it's them playing for CL to save their season. Was the same in 2016, is the same now. Would've been the same last year too if we didn't shoot ourselves in the leg vs Malaga and Deportivo.

So I'd say their success in CL is a sum of more factors. Lack of great competition as you noted, prioritizing the CL at the expense of the exhausting domestic competitions, luck with draws (2016 CL is one of the easiest paths to a title ever), luck with referee errors at the right time (though most winners benefit from that during the season), and having a team that knows very well to play two legged ties, with many individually great players like Ramos, Ronaldo, Marcelo, Kroos, Modric etc.

Ronaldo is probably the clutch Goat and UCL Goat.

serghei said:

So, bottom line, Ronaldo is an expert at moving, attacking space and tricking defenders. That's why he always appears to be in space in areas where it's usually very crowded. Because he moves a lot. And he is also pretty great at shooting the ball.

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This is the key to his numbers, plus his hunger for goals is also a huge part of his performance. He is probably the most professional and disciplined player in the world for which i have a lot of respect.
I wouldn t call him "clinical", because the last time i checked the advanced stats, his numbers were not that impressive. His shots to goals conversion was awfull, but he has
the option of taking lots of shots/game. He has a great team behing him, that plays to his strenghts (movement, positioning). He is the main focus of their last pass and he gets provided in different ways, making him hard to cover.

I don t think he is better striker than Messi. Part from head game. Leo has (much) better conversion rate inside and outside the box+ he is much better at free kicks.
If he truly was a better striker than Messi, his basic numbers(goals/minutes) should be significantly higher than Leo s are, since he doesn t have to create for himself or others and can concentrate only on scoring.
From my recolection there was only 1 season where Messi was able to do that and he scored almost 100 goals.

The notions about him being clutch and Messi being a choker are so absurd, that it s not even worth discussing.The irony is, that not long ago, the theory was reversed and Leo was clutch, while Ronaldo was a choker.
It s just a matter of time/circumstances, when the roles are again changed in the short-cycled percepcion of the mases.

I just saw a stat, from last 7 years, goals scored from 1/4 final to Final of UCL : Messi 5 goals, Ronaldo 30 goals. not sure if this is true, saw this on twitter.

Champions League quarter-final to final goals in the past 7 seasons:

30: Cristiano Ronaldo
10: Robert Lewandowski
9: Thomas Müller
8: Neymar
7: Mario Mandzukic
6: Arjen Robben, Luis Suarez
5: Karim Benzema, Lionel Messi, Sergio Ramos, Griezmann

Well that's not surprising, Ronaldo is great at scoring and Real's midfield always been good and feeding him since, It's not like Messi hasn't done that before he scored 91 goals in one year and 14 CL goals at the time which was new record, he could've kept doing that if he'd been playing as false 9 or getting better midfield to get fed.

Yes this was quite interesting that Messi was in the lead in the CL scoring charts and Ronaldo was about to be old in soccer terms and it looked like he would slowly decline into his 30s while Messi would increase his goalscoring lead year by year. Ronaldo currently leads, 96 goals to Messi's 93; one of them will be the champion.