Respekt_III
Anti-everything
Personally i think this too, although i do find that it's the case with most footballers though.
10 - Lionel Messi - V6
- Thread starter El Flaco
- Start date
Personally i think this too, although i do find that it's the case with most footballers though.
We should not base an asessment of Messi on a single unfortunate match where Liverpool scored goals that Barça should not have conceded and where clear Barça chances were not converted (in particular by former Liverpool players who did not convert 1-on-1 opportunities).
We have a tendency to rationalize results after the fact, to refuse to acknowledge the element of chance. Jürgen Klopp stated that Barça had more clear chances to score at Anfield than they had at Camp Nou, and I agree with him. What enabled Barça to win 3:0 at home was some luck and the genius of Messi. What enabled Liverpool to win at home was a lot of luck, a lack of fight by some Barça players, and an extraordinary performance by GK Alisson Becker.
Unfortunately, our own usually very reliable GK did not have his best day.
Blaming the defeat on Messi is ridiculous. He did his best, that his shooting accuracy was not quite at his usual superhuman level cannot be used to accuse him of letting his team down. He definitely compensated by providing 4 potential assists that were wasted by his team mates.
If at least one had been converted, we would all acknowledge that Lionel Messi is the best player of this generation, and that we are blessed to be able to watch him week by week do what no player ever was able to do.
We have a tendency to rationalize results after the fact, to refuse to acknowledge the element of chance. Jürgen Klopp stated that Barça had more clear chances to score at Anfield than they had at Camp Nou, and I agree with him. What enabled Barça to win 3:0 at home was some luck and the genius of Messi. What enabled Liverpool to win at home was a lot of luck, a lack of fight by some Barça players, and an extraordinary performance by GK Alisson Becker.
Unfortunately, our own usually very reliable GK did not have his best day.
Blaming the defeat on Messi is ridiculous. He did his best, that his shooting accuracy was not quite at his usual superhuman level cannot be used to accuse him of letting his team down. He definitely compensated by providing 4 potential assists that were wasted by his team mates.
If at least one had been converted, we would all acknowledge that Lionel Messi is the best player of this generation, and that we are blessed to be able to watch him week by week do what no player ever was able to do.
FCB1987
Banned
This sounds like a comment Valverde would say. Even with more injuries to deal with and a tough match between the two legs, Liverpool were clearly the better team over 180 minutes. It's hilarious how you claim their luck in the second leg was so much bigger than ours in the first. The first leg should have been a draw or narrow Liverpool win based on the general play and the second leg should have been 2-3 goals in their favor. They also took their foot off a bit after scoring the third. What extraordinary performance from Alisson are you even referring to? His saves from Suarez, Coutinho, and Alba were all ones that a decent goalkeeper should be making.
I also don't get how you can talk about chance when we have been CONSISTENTLY shit in almost every big CL away match over recent years. 2-0 to Atletico, 3-1 to City, 4-0 to PSG, 3-0 to Juve, 3-0 to Roma, and now 4-0 to Liverpool. Our performance at Old Trafford in the quarterfinals was also shocking and would have gotten us hammered against any decent team. The 1-1 draw at Chelsea last season probably should have been a loss as well.
Anfield wasn't a one off or chance event, it was just the latest in a long pattern of repeated failures.
Messi983
Senior Member
Let's hope.
feggydinho
Senior Member
I'm getting irritated with his off the ball movements, he's just 32 and ronaldo that's 34 has better off the ball movements. Let's not forget that messi is a captain who is supposed to lead by example.I hope he changes this in his next match cause the world is watching and it's just not cool (whether you're the best player or not)
malvolio
Senior Member
oh yeah, the old 'but, but ...ronaldo' debate. i guess you also like it when ronaldo doesn't show up until march and his team loses the league by then(not in juventus case since they don't have any rivals).
they are not the same type of player, you dribbling idiot!!!
ronaldo, after moving to real madrid, stopped creating(or reduced this aspect significantly) and started poaching. messi did it differently as he grew older, because of circumstances and because he is a player that never played as an out and out striker.
it's not messi's fault that argentina and the barcelona team of the last 4 years don't have creative midfilders. otherwise he could have created less and poached more.
Yet Messi's been outscoring Ronaldo despite dropping deeper and deeper and Ronaldo basically becoming a goal hanger.
raskolnikov
Well-known member
Because he is the better player and better goalscorer.
Ronaldo is more versitile as a goalscorer but not as a player nor is he better in both aspects.
I maintain that Alisson Becker was the difference maker. Ter Stegen had a bad night and Alisson had a very good one. He was MOM in both the semifinal and the final.
It's "water under the bridge" now but Alisson, along with VVD won the CL for Liverpool. Also, it may have been a blessing rather than a handicap for Liverpool to play the "reserves" Origi and Wijnaldum. Salah might have blown the chances converted by Origi.
I don't want to defend Valverde, he made serious mistakrs, starting with having Semedo on the bench and failing to motivate his players. He should have sent the B team to Celta with an assistant coach, and dedicated himself 100% to preparation for Anfield. He completely underestimated what high intensity can accomplish.
The Barça win at home was due to Messi, the Liverpool win was due to Klopp.
Final point: did Liverpool have an advantage because they played the return game at home?
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Arizona Scott
New member
Very much on point but does fit with a narrative of blame, at least the 1st point. (the other part is who would have figured Alba, after playing the highest level of any left back in the world all year, would have a career worst performance). The latter point I think does have some blame--managing in particular--the effort and energy put out of Liverpool players was on a whole level different than the Barca players. The faces and body language of Winaldjm, Origi, Milner, Alexander-Arnold--a whole level different of passion put in the match.
However the Messi critics really have not answered this. How do they want Barca to get better? 1) sell him to start anew; 2) build around Messi with a focus on the other 10 players having better off the ball coverage, pace and defensive pressure + a midfield that is more athletic defensively and controls possession better (so Messi rarely to never has to expend energy just to relieve pressure in our own half), or 3) by putting more pressure on him and expecting to squeezing more defensive coverage, pressing and 90 minute all over the pitch intensity out of one Lionel Messi.
It is easy to bitch, but what are their solutions. I know where my focus would be among those options.
FCB1987
Banned
1) Put Messi at false 9 in big games so we aren't defending in a 442 with 1 attacker who doesn't press much which forces us to sit deep.
2) Demanding Messi to show a bit more effort and leadership in those few very big matches.
3) Getting better and more athletic players around him and our other aging players.
4) Ideally getting a new manager.
Arizona Scott
New member
Fair enough and thank for address. I don't think we can squeeze more out of him and prefer he focuses on what he does best (not have to help the midfield with possession in our own half and at most picking spots to contribute to pressing). I also think there is a big danger to demanding more from him or implying he hasn't put in a big effort--him feeling even more pressure and less support. But perhaps with a manager who is a great connector and motivator (along with the tactics of course)--maybe you are right.
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