21 - Frenkie de Jong

vuji_31 said:

Play him at CDM and all problems are solved

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Absolutely true.

Horatio said:

Ziyech is and was the best player for me in the Dutch league..but in terms of talent..It took Ziyech a long time to get to the level he played.

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Ziyech is a good player, but he plays at totally different position. De Jong and De Ligt were the two best players for Ajax, before they left the team.

It's expected that he's unsellable.

Now then what is the plan for him to be then? We have tried to use him in a more advanced role but he had a lot of games where he didn't get enough of the ball and came off as a makeshift winger at times. If you ask me I'm pretty certain now his future lies as a DM if we are going to still be committed to a 4-3-3.

Right now I feel this team can benefit a lot from having Frenkie in Busi's spot. Sure we lose some of Busi's qualities with the ball but we make up for it in terms of Mobility, athleticism and FDJ is no slouch either with the ball at his feet and could probably adapt far more quickly to that position than trying to make him more of an attacking CM.

I just don't get the mindset that we don't have a Busi Replacement, I call Bullshit on that and think FDJ is probably the best option we have that can pull it off.

Every normal club would have benched Busqets long time ago. Especially when you have best young midfielder in the world in that position who dominated midfield against RM in CL.

xXKonan said:

It's expected that he's unsellable.

Now then what is the plan for him to be then? We have tried to use him in a more advanced role but he had a lot of games where he didn't get enough of the ball and came off as a makeshift winger at times. If you ask me I'm pretty certain now his future lies as a DM if we are going to still be committed to a 4-3-3.

Right now I feel this team can benefit a lot from having Frenkie in Busi's spot. Sure we lose some of Busi's qualities with the ball but we make up for it in terms of Mobility, athleticism and FDJ is no slouch either with the ball at his feet and could probably adapt far more quickly to that position than trying to make him more of an attacking CM.

I just don't get the mindset that we don't have a Busi Replacement, I call Bullshit on that and think FDJ is probably the best option we have that can pull it off.

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For now he is questionable as a lone pivot in 433.
At Ajax and NT, he played in a double pivot role because someone needs to cover for him when he ventures into attack.

Also, for now in terms of positiong in defense, he needs to learn a lot to reach Busi's level.

So, it is not that simple just to push him to a single pivot role.

Even his defending doesn't suite the lone pivot position as he is very agressive and push up a lot and leaves space behind. But he is not a 8 who receive between the lines like Iniesta either. He is a 100+ touches a game type of player but he need a midfielder behind or beside him who can do the dirty work as he himself has explained that both in Holland and Ajax he is used to a double pivot. Like he said: "I'm more of a Xavi" and that comparison is great IMO.

We need someone like Fabinho/Casemiro/Kante behind him or besides him, doesn't really matter as Frenkie seems to like a more mobile role like Kroos/Xavi who both needed defensive cover to roam the pitch because they can influence all three phrases of the game.

BBZ8800 said:

For now he is questionable as a lone pivot in 433.
At Ajax and NT, he played in a double pivot role because someone needs to cover for him when he ventures into attack.

Also, for now in terms of positiong in defense, he needs to learn a lot to reach Busi's level.

So, it is not that simple just to push him to a single pivot role.

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If we play 4-3-3 (for the future), Frankie will be the one at Busy's spot. That means we have to find the new Xavi and Iniesta type of player for that 3 man midfield. But in 4-2-3-1, Frenkie will play along another defensive midfielder. He would not need to play advanced role, because Messi will take care of the play-making duty.
And as a DM, I don't think he needs to learn a lot to rich Busy's level.

vuji_31 said:

Every normal club would have benched Busqets long time ago. Especially when you have best young midfielder in the world in that position who dominated midfield against RM in CL.

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Yes. Every normal club, but Barcelona is not one of them unfortunately, otherwise, Pique, Busy and Suarez would have been benched long time ago.

Riordon said:

Even his defending doesn't suite the lone pivot position as he is very agressive and push up a lot and leaves space behind. But he is not a 8 who receive between the lines like Iniesta either. He is a 100+ touches a game type of player but he need a midfielder behind or beside him who can do the dirty work as he himself has explained that both in Holland and Ajax he is used to a double pivot. Like he said: "I'm more of a Xavi" and that comparison is great IMO.

We need someone like Fabinho/Casemiro/Kante behind him or besides him, doesn't really matter as Frenkie seems to like a more mobile role like Kroos/Xavi who both needed defensive cover to roam the pitch because they can influence all three phrases of the game.

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Not behind him. Beside him. You pair Frenkie with Kante as a defensive tandem and at least 50-60% of our back-line problems are fixed. He does not need to go further and play as a Xavi because he does not have his qualities. FDJ is a defensive midfielder and has to play as a DM.

Tbf, he has used to play CB many times with Ajax, so I think adapting defensively should happen. Though it is still questionable if we get best of him there or what we need beside him.
we might need more of a Vidal type of b2b beside him rather than a Kante. Both options worth exploring.
Though in both cases it puts a lot of questions on Arthur fit with him, he will need to improve a lot either as creator or defensively to fit eside FDJ

People exaggerate a bit with the lone pivot thing in 4-3-3. The thing with 4-3-3 is that the 3 play narrow together in quite short distances. They are not splattered on the whole width of the pitch with big distances between them. They are narrow usually, and make room for fullbacks to take on the more advanced wide positions in midfield-attack. So the 3 on paper, becomes almost all the time a 5.

It's more this:



Than this:


It's Lenglet there not Lautaro in pic 1 .

It depends on situations in the game. If the DM is pressed, one of the other two drops and reveals himself for pass to ease the pressure. You never leave him alone basically, unless you trust him to find a way. This is one of the most important things to get right in midfield. To know when a teammate needs assistance, and when he has options to pass - in which case it's better to remain in your position and wait for service.

serghei said:

People exaggerate a bit with the lone pivot thing in 4-3-3. The thing with 4-3-3 is that the 3 play narrow together in quite short distances. They are not splattered on the whole width of the pitch with big distances between them. They are narrow usually, and make room for fullbacks to take on the more advanced wide positions in midfield-attack. So the 3 on paper, becomes almost all the time a 5.

It's more this:

Than this:

It's Lenglet there not Lautaro in pic 1 .

It depends on situations in the game. If the DM is pressed, one of the other two drops and reveals himself for pass to ease the pressure. You never leave him alone basically, unless you trust him to find a way. This is one of the most important things to get right in midfield. To know when a teammate needs assistance, and when he has options to pass - in which case it's better to remain in your position and wait for service.

Click to expand...

On both of your formation you have positioned Messi at the right wing, but he does not play there anymore. So there will be a big gap at the right side, unless you place there Trincao and move Messi to his current position as a freelance player ( the one who plays wherever he want ). In a traditional 4-3-3 system he will be the # 10, FDJ at the center as # 6 and someone ( not Arthur ) as # 8.
You are right that the midfielder play very close to each other. We don't need box to box players when Messi is still around. To me, the best system suiting the players we have is the three up front players and Messi operating behind them as a play-maker. Behind him we should have a tandem of two defensive midfielder and as I mentioned, FDJ is the one we already have. We need to add another one, not a play-maker like Pjanic. And in that system, the two full backs have to stay more often in their zones, than advancing further up.

serghei said:

People exaggerate a bit with the lone pivot thing in 4-3-3. The thing with 4-3-3 is that the 3 play narrow together in quite short distances. They are not splattered on the whole width of the pitch with big distances between them. They are narrow usually, and make room for fullbacks to take on the more advanced wide positions in midfield-attack. So the 3 on paper, becomes almost all the time a 5.

It's more this:

Than this:

It's Lenglet there not Lautaro in pic 1 .

It depends on situations in the game. If the DM is pressed, one of the other two drops and reveals himself for pass to ease the pressure. You never leave him alone basically, unless you trust him to find a way. This is one of the most important things to get right in midfield. To know when a teammate needs assistance, and when he has options to pass - in which case it's better to remain in your position and wait for service.

Click to expand...

This will work if you have a full functional Starting XI in all positions, players who aren't only elite but also complete. That is really difficult and there is always someone we will have to adapt to his limitations.
For example, Semedo would be a disaster in such line up. Roberto is better fit but he is also liability in defense. You will need an Alves/Lahm/Maicon level of RB, and soon a replacement who fit same bill in CB. Same for CBs and obviously a great complete attack.

I doubt we will have such complete team before 2023 and this is even if we start now.

khaled_a_d said:

This will work if you have a full functional Starting XI in all positions, players who aren't only elite but also complete. That is really difficult and there is always someone we will have to adapt to his limitations.
For example, Semedo would be a disaster in such line up. Roberto is better fit but he is also liability in defense. You will need an Alves/Lahm/Maicon level of RB, and soon a replacement who fit same bill in CB. Same for CBs and obviously a great complete attack.

I doubt we will have such complete team before 2023 and this is even if we start now.

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Fullbacks go up with the action. That's modern football. On build-up only the CBs stay back. Fullbacks go up and make a midfield 5. It's standard positioning in build-up for 4-3-3. This allows the CMs to stay closer to the DM, thus making him un-isolated. That's why it's a midfield trio. A trio implies some sort of interdepency between the 3 players. CMs close in near the DM (at least 1) when he is pressed. They push up when he has space on the ball to provide passing options more up field.

LABarcaFan said:

On both of your formation you have positioned Messi at the right wing, but he does not play there anymore. So there will be a big gap at the right side, unless you place there Trincao and move Messi to his current position as a freelance player ( the one who plays wherever he want ). In a traditional 4-3-3 system he will be the # 10, FDJ at the center as # 6 and someone ( not Arthur ) as # 8.
You are right that the midfielder play very close to each other. We don't need box to box players when Messi is still around. To me, the best system suiting the players we have is the three up front players and Messi operating behind them as a play-maker. Behind him we should have a tandem of two defensive midfielder and as I mentioned, FDJ is the one we already have. We need to add another one, not a play-maker like Pjanic. And in that system, the two full backs have to stay more often in their zones, than advancing further up.

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There is a big gap in our right. In reality, Messi is closer to Suarez and the RW is nearly empty. Hence the problems in attack on that flank.

3 up front + Messi doesn't work. No system with 4 forwards will work, because it leaves you too exposed when you lose the ball. Messi can't play in midfield, because it is a position that requires a lot of movement and workrate. And he is very poor in this area.

Besides, the team needs to not be build around Messi anymore.

i dont think FDJ is best suited to CDM. He is one of the best dribblers and has flair, he is too fast to be wasted at CDM he also isnt some defensive beast there either with insane physicality and defending. His best role is a 6, he is just a better Arthur both of them cannot play together because we are missing a 8 or a true cdm if they do. Maybe double pivot it is ok as long as the front 4 do all the creative work.

Omg stop with that shit there is gap in RW.
This is formation that Guardiola used in attack.

Villa- Pedro - Dani Alves
Messi
Iniesta. Xavi
Busqets
Abidal Puyol Pique

If Setien plays something even more defensive you would say add 2 black fast CDM like Kante or Soumare.

Point of formation is getting numerical advantage somwhere on the field

Frenkie is a specific midfielder. He can work both in a double pivot, and as a lone pivot, but then he would need the right players around him.

He can't be a lone pilot like Busi was with Xavi and Iniesta, he needs other types of players around him, one must be like Yaya or Essien were (Thomas, Soumare, Sangare, etc.), and the other one should be in the Lampard mold (Tielemans, Mount, etc.)

Personally, currently he should play in a double pivot, as long as Messi is in the team, only after Messi retires, Barca can return to the classic 4-3-3

4-2-3-1 is the perfect football formation. It makes use of four defenders, two defensive midfielders, three attacking midfielders and a striker. It utilizes 4-4-2 Diamond's strength in midfield, while successfully avoiding the weakness of having no wide player. 4-2-3-1 is a supposedly the best formation in today's football. The two defensive midfielders can help the defense as well as create opportunities either by spreading the play on the flanks for the wings or the fullbacks or via direct ball.

The top German and English clubs are already using that system very successfully. Here are some examples:

BAYERN MUNICH

....................... Lewandowski.................
Coman.............. Muller...............Gnabry
.......... Martinez.............Thiago.............
Alaba....Hernandez........Sule......Kimmich

.......................... Neuer........................

BORUSIA DORTMUND

.........................Gotze.............................

Hazard................ Reus................ Sancho

.......... Brandt................ Witsel.................

Schulz........Hummels..........Akanji...... Hakimi

........................ Burki................................

RB LEIPZIG

.......................... Werner.............................

Forsberg............. Poulsen...............Sabitzer

........... Laimer..................Klostermann.........

Halstenberg.....Upamecano.......Konate..... Mukiele

........................ Gulacsi....................................

LIVERPOOL ( in 2020/21 season )

............................. Werner.................................

..........Mane...........Firmino...........Salah..........

................Fabinho............ Henderson...........

Robertson.....Gomes.......Van Dijk....... Arnold

......................... Alison................................

To this list we can attache many other top Europen teams like PSG, Olympic Lyon, Valencia, e.t.c.
Assuming Lautaro is sure signing, our lineup for the next season may look like this:


............................ L.Suarez..............................
L.Martinez............ Leo Messi............. Griezmann

............. Busquets................F. de Jong..............

Alba...........Todibo........... Pique......... Semedo

............................ MATS.................................