Blasphemy. Never heard anyone downplay Iniesta like this.
Lionel Messi - v7
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
Blasphemy. Never heard anyone downplay Iniesta like this.
Personally i`ve always rated Iniesta higher than Xavi, thats not an insult to Xavi, i just happened to think that Iniesta had a bit higher top level.
Xavi is a better passer, but Iniesta is a good passer too, and he could glide plast players in a way Xavi never could, that and being incredible in big-games.
At least, thats my impression from watching Spain, perhaps Xavi was more consistent over an entire season, idk.
I might be biased though, just letting you know, the fact that Xavi appears to be a jerk almost everytime he opens his mouth may or may not impact my decision here.
Xavi is a better passer, but Iniesta is a good passer too, and he could glide plast players in a way Xavi never could, that and being incredible in big-games.
At least, thats my impression from watching Spain, perhaps Xavi was more consistent over an entire season, idk.
I might be biased though, just letting you know, the fact that Xavi appears to be a jerk almost everytime he opens his mouth may or may not impact my decision here.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Xavi was TikiTaka himself.
Regarding Iniesta, he was awesome.
But as some others have said, he was a part of a perfect machine:
1. Messi, GOAT of all time
2. Pep, the best coach for us ever
3. Xavi, TikiTaka himself
4. Iniesta
5. Busquets
6. Dani Alves, one of the best RBs ever
7. perfect circumstances for our system to shine (Italians were bankrupted, EPL wasn't as rich, PSG hasn't existed in a current terms, there were no oil teams)
Both with Busi and Iniesta, a part of their success and skills is overrated and inflated due to playing in the best team, surrounded by perfect players, coached by a perfect player and playing in a perfect time with not as many physical teams or rich teams like today.
The same as how Busi was a GOAT during Pep surrounded by Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Alves, but after that he kinda turned into meh, the same could be said about Iniesta:
Before Pep he was not as a good. During Pep and during a perfect generation, he was awesome. But once when we lost Alves and when Xavi declined, Iniesta was also exposed (the same as Busi).
The only year after 2012 when Iniesta was good was 2015, and even then we literally played without midfield and relied on counters and MSN magic.
I am not saying that Iniesta isn't awesome.
But even Rakitic looked like an awesome player in 2015 in a well glued system.
Even Oleguer looked decent in 2006, and Guily looked like a world class attacker.
A huge question is: how would Iniesta looked like if there wasn't Xavi or Messi around him?
Regarding Laudrup, he played without Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
And managed to win 5 league titles in a row (For with Barca in 91, 92, 93, 94 and when he moved to Real in a summer of 1994, Barca's Dream team immediately died and RM won a title in 1995 with Laudrup).
Laudrup also won a CL without Messi in 1992.
And won Euros with an average team like Denmark in 1992, where Denmark didn't even qualify for Euros, but due to a war in Yugoslavia, they were disqualified and Denmark entered a competition literally without any preparation for a tournament.
I am not saying that Laudrup is better.
But with all players from recent era=there is a huge recency bias.
Also, a legitimate question is=how many of these players were system players, who were good, but who looked way better due to being a part of the best team ever?
A lot of players from Pep's ear probably looked 20, 50 or 100% better than they actually were, due to a perfect team around them.
About Laudrup, look at this:
After 4 years winning titles with Barca from 1991 to 1994, he moved to Real and look what he has been doing to our dream team.
He was eating us alive, a one man show against a best team in the world.
Of course that Real won a title with him in 1995:
Regarding Iniesta, he was awesome.
But as some others have said, he was a part of a perfect machine:
1. Messi, GOAT of all time
2. Pep, the best coach for us ever
3. Xavi, TikiTaka himself
4. Iniesta
5. Busquets
6. Dani Alves, one of the best RBs ever
7. perfect circumstances for our system to shine (Italians were bankrupted, EPL wasn't as rich, PSG hasn't existed in a current terms, there were no oil teams)
Both with Busi and Iniesta, a part of their success and skills is overrated and inflated due to playing in the best team, surrounded by perfect players, coached by a perfect player and playing in a perfect time with not as many physical teams or rich teams like today.
The same as how Busi was a GOAT during Pep surrounded by Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Alves, but after that he kinda turned into meh, the same could be said about Iniesta:
Before Pep he was not as a good. During Pep and during a perfect generation, he was awesome. But once when we lost Alves and when Xavi declined, Iniesta was also exposed (the same as Busi).
The only year after 2012 when Iniesta was good was 2015, and even then we literally played without midfield and relied on counters and MSN magic.
I am not saying that Iniesta isn't awesome.
But even Rakitic looked like an awesome player in 2015 in a well glued system.
Even Oleguer looked decent in 2006, and Guily looked like a world class attacker.
A huge question is: how would Iniesta looked like if there wasn't Xavi or Messi around him?
Regarding Laudrup, he played without Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
And managed to win 5 league titles in a row (For with Barca in 91, 92, 93, 94 and when he moved to Real in a summer of 1994, Barca's Dream team immediately died and RM won a title in 1995 with Laudrup).
Laudrup also won a CL without Messi in 1992.
And won Euros with an average team like Denmark in 1992, where Denmark didn't even qualify for Euros, but due to a war in Yugoslavia, they were disqualified and Denmark entered a competition literally without any preparation for a tournament.
I am not saying that Laudrup is better.
But with all players from recent era=there is a huge recency bias.
Also, a legitimate question is=how many of these players were system players, who were good, but who looked way better due to being a part of the best team ever?
A lot of players from Pep's ear probably looked 20, 50 or 100% better than they actually were, due to a perfect team around them.
About Laudrup, look at this:
After 4 years winning titles with Barca from 1991 to 1994, he moved to Real and look what he has been doing to our dream team.
He was eating us alive, a one man show against a best team in the world.
Of course that Real won a title with him in 1995:
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
Even thinking about a comparison to Rakitic and Oleguer is already insulting in so many ways 
Obviously good teams/coaches make players look better but Iniesta definitely isn't the one where this should be brought up. Iniesta was pure brilliance at his peak just like Xavi.
I could see this argument made for Mascherano, Abidal, Valdes, Pedro and maybe even Busquets but not Iniesta, he was just way too good.
Obviously good teams/coaches make players look better but Iniesta definitely isn't the one where this should be brought up. Iniesta was pure brilliance at his peak just like Xavi.
I could see this argument made for Mascherano, Abidal, Valdes, Pedro and maybe even Busquets but not Iniesta, he was just way too good.
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"Hes awesome, but (...)" - you know what you did there, mate.
But kind of explains why you are so harsh about Arthur and Frenkie: you have ridiculous expectations. The only year Iniesta was good after 2012 was 2015? Under Tata Martino he was sensational and rivaled Messi as our best player for example, but no title so that doesnt count? Even before his prime in 2006 he completely changed the CL final. I think Henry said some nice stuff about that.
But shockingly enough he declined after 2015. Some may call that natural though.
But kind of explains why you are so harsh about Arthur and Frenkie: you have ridiculous expectations. The only year Iniesta was good after 2012 was 2015?
Under Tata Martino he was sensational and rivaled Messi as our best player for example, but no title so that doesnt count? Even before his prime in 2006 he completely changed the CL final. I think Henry said some nice stuff about that.But shockingly enough he declined after 2015. Some may call that natural though.
Yep.
Iniesta was Spain's best player. Xavi had problems fitting in as a CAM together with Busquets and Alonso and wasn't as influential as in Pep's 4-3-3. Iniesta on the other hand was dominating as a LW even íf he lacked pace.
There's absolutely 0 reason to believe that Iniesta wouldn't improve ANY team in ANY era. He was that good and for sure is one of the all time greats.
I also don't see any reason to pick a winner between Xavi vs Iniesta. Those two played their entire primes together both at club and NT. Of course they benefited from each other and both would become worse if separated and put into say Manchester United. But both of them would still be the best player of the team.
Can do some mental gymnastics and put numbers to it.
Xavi graded 9/10 individually became 10/10 with right teammates.
Iniesta 9/10 individually became 10/10 with right teammates.
Messi 10/10 already.
Busquets 8/10 individually became 9/10 in Pep's system. Even if he was in a perfect system he had his obvious flaws (weak, slow), but no team could exploit it in his prime (maybe Bayern 2013).
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Blaugrana Bull
HiiiPoWeR
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]
Do not want a longer debate about Iniesta/Laudrup, today/90s etc. Just a quick correction: Denmark won the Euros without Michael Laudrup who had beef with the coach.
Do not want a longer debate about Iniesta/Laudrup, today/90s etc. Just a quick correction: Denmark won the Euros without Michael Laudrup who had beef with the coach.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
Xavi and Iniesta are shoe-in top 5 midfielders of all time. I personally think Xavi was the better of the pair but it's splitting hairs.
Only others in this class are Zidane, Matthaus, and Rijkaard.
For me, the attacking/goal scoring no.10s are a different category. Here, it'd be Platini, Zico, Maradona etc.
Only others in this class are Zidane, Matthaus, and Rijkaard.
For me, the attacking/goal scoring no.10s are a different category. Here, it'd be Platini, Zico, Maradona etc.
Jadentheman
Active member
It's efficiency vs raw power.
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
2011
2009
2015
I have it in that order, in terms of how good the overall team is.
However the 2015 Prime MSN team had arguably the greatest European Football run in a single season.
As for the Iniesta vs. Xavi discussion, then you can go either way I guess, but for the Spanish NT Xavi was definitely the more important player. I'm not saying he was better, but he was the most important as that team collapsed the moment the guy declined despite having several good players still playing at a very high level.
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