Basketball/NBA

khaled_a_d said:

And I thought he is next Taj gibson before the draft

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How could that possibly be a bad thing? He's been in the league for 10 years, made the playoffs eight times, always being an absolute model professional both on and off the court. Great defender, great fundamentals offensively - his footwork really is outstanding - and the very definition of a glue guy. Every team needs a Taj Gibson. It cannot be stressed enough how much the Timberwolves have benefited from having Taj around. He adds experience, professionalism, defence and just overall solid basketball. Sure, he's not an All-Star or one of the best in the league, but if Taj Gibson is your lower ceiling you're a fucking incredible talent because Taj Gibson is anything but a bad basketball player. He was All-Rookie First Team too, by the way, putting up 9 points and 7.5 rebounds per game. It should be pointed out, before you bring on the four-point differential in points per game between Taj and JJJ, that JJJ has a significantly higher usage rate than Taj did too. A six percentage point differential to be exact. That's a big difference but it actually also highlights one thing that's great about Taj. He can contribute with so much without even touching the ball, because he is extremely good at setting screens at the right angles and because he understands spacing so well.

Yeah, basically I love Taj. He might just be our most important player, actually, because he is such a great leader and has such a big influence on our general attitude and effort. It's between him and Covington for sure.

Regarding Luka Doncic, he definitely is an incredible talent and one of the best rookies to come out of a draft in the past decade or so. But, once again much like with KP a couple of years ago, it's hilarious to see how easily people get carried away. There was a video on Basketball Breakdown just the other day, discussing whether Luka was having the best rookie season ever. Like, how do you even say that with a straight face? He's not even having the best rookie season in the past 30 years. The Admiral averaged 24 points, 12 rebounds and almost 4 blocks. AI averaged over 23 points, over 7 assists and over 2 steals. Shaq averaged over 23 points, almost 14 rebounds and over 3 blocks. And then you have players like Melo, LeBron, Tim Duncan and so on and so forth. And that's just in the past 30 years, without even talking about players like Wilt (37 points per game in his rookie season), Kareem, MJ and Pistol Pete. It's a laughable suggestion.

But it's the same old story. Just in the past couple of years, I've seen similar hype for guys like Jahlil Okafor and MCW. Don't get me wrong, I'm confident Doncic will be a star and so much better than those two, but people just get carried away so easily. I mean, it's still early days but let's just assume that Doncic finishes with averages somewhat similar to his current ones: In that case, did he even have a decidedly better rookie season than Donovan Mitchell had?

El Trencaxarxes said:

Regarding Luka Doncic, he definitely is an incredible talent and one of the best rookies to come out of a draft in the past decade or so. But, once again much like with KP a couple of years ago, it's hilarious to see how easily people get carried away. There was a video on Basketball Breakdown just the other day, discussing whether Luka was having the best rookie season ever. Like, how do you even say that with a straight face? He's not even having the best rookie season in the past 30 years. The Admiral averaged 24 points, 12 rebounds and almost 4 blocks. AI averaged over 23 points, over 7 assists and over 2 steals. Shaq averaged over 23 points, almost 14 rebounds and over 3 blocks. And then you have players like Melo, LeBron, Tim Duncan and so on and so forth. And that's just in the past 30 years, without even talking about players like Wilt (37 points per game in his rookie season), Kareem, MJ and Pistol Pete. It's a laughable suggestion.

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TBF the video got taken down by now, presumably for being too statistically biased, but still, why this obsession about factual accuracy in this case? Peddling the hype is one thing, but it's not like anyone has any illusions about him being still basically just a very good rookie. Most HOFs didn't kick into that top level this early.

Nor do I think he was knocking Taj necessarily. Most teams find value in a Bruce Bowen type player. He's still a rather.. underwhelming option in today's league though. If you're not capable of being a perimeter chucker you have to be an exceptional rebounder. Taj is just very good, which isn't unique.

Wolfe said:

TBF the video got taken down by now, presumably for being too statistically biased, but still, why this obsession about factual accuracy in this case? Peddling the hype is one thing, but it's not like anyone has any illusions about him being still basically just a very good rookie. Most HOFs didn't kick into that top level this early.

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And conversely, many players started their career out amazingly and then either didn't really progress or actually ended up regressing. Think Glenn Robinson, Elton Brand and Keith Van Horn. Yeah, it got taken down relatively quickly, but Basketball Breakdown produced it nonetheless, fuelling the people who legitimately think Doncic is having a special rookie season. It's possible that Luka is a special talent and will be a Hall of Famer. Of course, that's possible. But his rookie season, so far, is not an extraordinary one, yet that's a notion that seems to be gaining traction.

Wolfe said:

Nor do I think he was knocking Taj necessarily. Most teams find value in a Bruce Bowen type player. He's still a rather.. underwhelming option in today's league though. If you're not capable of being a perimeter chucker you have to be an exceptional rebounder. Taj is just very good, which isn't unique.

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Honestly, I don't think he's that underwhelming an option. Sure, you could throw a "perimeter chucker" in his place and maybe get more three-point production but what do you lose in terms of rebounding - if you're a "perimeter chucker" chances are you don't grab a lot of offensive boards - and in terms of defensive effort and knowhow? There are only four forwards who grab more offensive rebounds than Taj does, and of those four only AD knocks down more three-pointers than Taj does. And then you have all the intangibles. Leadership, understanding how to organize and set up defensively, setting good and effective screens, defending efficiently and so on and so forth. Taj demands very little offensively, yet he is rock solid whenever he is called upon - his eFG% is at .560 - while being a leader defensively. He was key in reaching the playoffs last season, and he's been instrumental in getting us back on track after the Butler-saga this season. I realize that Taj isn't a "modern" forward like Nikola Mirotic or Lauri Markkanen but he brings so many other things to the table that he is definitely worthwhile having.

El Trencaxarxes said:

How could that possibly be a bad thing? He's been in the league for 10 years, made the playoffs eight times, always being an absolute model professional both on and off the court. Great defender, great fundamentals offensively - his footwork really is outstanding - and the very definition of a glue guy. Every team needs a Taj Gibson. It cannot be stressed enough how much the Timberwolves have benefited from having Taj around. He adds experience, professionalism, defence and just overall solid basketball. Sure, he's not an All-Star or one of the best in the league, but if Taj Gibson is your lower ceiling you're a fucking incredible talent because Taj Gibson is anything but a bad basketball player. He was All-Rookie First Team too, by the way, putting up 9 points and 7.5 rebounds per game. It should be pointed out, before you bring on the four-point differential in points per game between Taj and JJJ, that JJJ has a significantly higher usage rate than Taj did too. A six percentage point differential to be exact. That's a big difference but it actually also highlights one thing that's great about Taj. He can contribute with so much without even touching the ball, because he is extremely good at setting screens at the right angles and because he understands spacing so well.

Yeah, basically I love Taj. He might just be our most important player, actually, because he is such a great leader and has such a big influence on our general attitude and effort. It's between him and Covington for sure.

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I like Taj Gibson a lot, but you are a bit way off here
For starter, you are comparing both players rookie year? I mean Gibson was over 5 years older when he was drafted, he entered college one year older than JJJ entered NBA ffs. JJJ 2pt%, 3PT%, FT% were all better than Gibson btw.

And Taj Gibson was a good serviceable big man, probably good bench player or acceptable starter. Gibson was 26th pick in the NBA draft, he was steal where he was drafted. But if you are drafting top 5 you don't target Taj Gibson, he is a bust in such situation.

El Trencaxarxes said:

Regarding Luka Doncic, he definitely is an incredible talent and one of the best rookies to come out of a draft in the past decade or so. But, once again much like with KP a couple of years ago, it's hilarious to see how easily people get carried away. There was a video on Basketball Breakdown just the other day, discussing whether Luka was having the best rookie season ever. Like, how do you even say that with a straight face? He's not even having the best rookie season in the past 30 years. The Admiral averaged 24 points, 12 rebounds and almost 4 blocks. AI averaged over 23 points, over 7 assists and over 2 steals. Shaq averaged over 23 points, almost 14 rebounds and over 3 blocks. And then you have players like Melo, LeBron, Tim Duncan and so on and so forth. And that's just in the past 30 years, without even talking about players like Wilt (37 points per game in his rookie season), Kareem, MJ and Pistol Pete. It's a laughable suggestion.

But it's the same old story. Just in the past couple of years, I've seen similar hype for guys like Jahlil Okafor and MCW. Don't get me wrong, I'm confident Doncic will be a star and so much better than those two, but people just get carried away so easily. I mean, it's still early days but let's just assume that Doncic finishes with averages somewhat similar to his current ones: In that case, did he even have a decidedly better rookie season than Donovan Mitchell had?

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You are triggered so easy, yeah some fools are saying stupid stuff? what is new again?
Luka is having great year, but as you said same shit happens every year. Many Celtics fans were crucifying anyone who doesn't believe Tatum is the new Kobe, Jazz fans believe that Mitchel is next Wade and the list goes on. Mavs fans actually thought DSJ is the next Westbrook last year and now they are coming to reality.
This is the reality for NBA rookies, people always love to see the hype, loves to get some freak states to support it.

khaled_a_d said:

You are triggered so easy, yeah some fools are saying stupid stuff? what is new again?
Luka is having great year, but as you said same shit happens every year. Many Celtics fans were crucifying anyone who doesn't believe Tatum is the new Kobe, Jazz fans believe that Mitchel is next Wade and the list goes on. Mavs fans actually thought DSJ is the next Westbrook last year and now they are coming to reality.
This is the reality for NBA rookies, people always love to see the hype, loves to get some freak states to support it.

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Yep

Made me tune out these days. Rise of social media made following NBA unbearable. Now everyone is asked about stuff posted online from a Statszone account or the newest Skip Bayless special.

khaled_a_d said:

I like Taj Gibson a lot, but you are a bit way off here
For starter, you are comparing both players rookie year? I mean Gibson was over 5 years older when he was drafted, he entered college one year older than JJJ entered NBA ffs. JJJ 2pt%, 3PT%, FT% were all better than Gibson btw.

And Taj Gibson was a good serviceable big man, probably good bench player or acceptable starter. Gibson was 26th pick in the NBA draft, he was steal where he was drafted. But if you are drafting top 5 you don't target Taj Gibson, he is a bust in such situation.

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I think you're missing my point. If Taj is your lower ceiling, even as a top five draft pick, you're going to be a great player. Because if you think back, how many top five picks end up having a worse career than Taj has had? That's right, an awful lot. Just in the last ten years, you have players like Dragan Bender, Jahlil Okafor, Mario Hezonja, Anthony Bennett (remember that guy?), Cody Zeller, Alex Len, Thomas Robinson, Derrick Williams, Hasheem Thabeet and Michael Beasley all going in the top five. How many of those players have had - or looks like they will have - a better career than Taj? I'd say none of them. I guess Zeller and Len are alright players but neither of them look like they have the impact that Taj has in terms of leadership and general intangibles. If you, as a top five player, are a bust if you don't clear-cut surpass Taj Gibson, then there are an awful lot of top five busts in the past 20 years. Like a lot!

khaled_a_d said:

You are triggered so easy, yeah some fools are saying stupid stuff? what is new again?

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Nothing is new? That is literally what I just said:
"But it's the same old story."

When did I say I thought Taj is his lower ceiling?

You wrote this:

khaled_a_d said:

And I thought he is next Taj gibson before the draft

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Tell me how to interpret that differently, if it's not meant as a slight on Taj? And then explain to me again, how matching Taj as a player and as a piece of a team would mean that you're a bust as a top-five pick, when you can point to big men like Dragan Bender, Jahlil Okafor, Anthony Bennett, Cody Zeller, Alex Len, Thomas Robinson, Derrick Williams, Hasheem Thabeet, Michael Beasley, Tyrus Thomas, Shelden Williams and Darko Milicic who all went in the top five in the last 15 years alone?

El Trencaxarxes said:

You wrote this:



Tell me how to interpret that differently, if it's not meant as a slight on Taj? And then explain to me again, how matching Taj as a player and as a piece of a team would mean that you're a bust as a top-five pick, when you can point to big men like Dragan Bender, Jahlil Okafor, Anthony Bennett, Cody Zeller, Alex Len, Thomas Robinson, Derrick Williams, Hasheem Thabeet, Michael Beasley, Tyrus Thomas, Shelden Williams and Darko Milicic who all went in the top five in the last 15 years alone?

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You didn't answer the question? When did I say Taj is his lower ceiling?
And please,telling me about draft busts to support your argument?
Taj is good player but no team would draft him top 5, just because some other teams makes that mistake doesn't mean it is ok, and doesn't mean that if Taj himself was drafted 4th overall in 2009 people won't say he is bust even with such career he had.
If you don't like that, it is your problem really. No top 5 prospect would ever say "I think I am the next Taj Gibson" for any team thinking about drafting him

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Speaking about greatness. Giannis is something else. His nickname could not be more spot on. So far he must be the favorite for this season's MVP alongside James Harden who literally carries Houston offensively. More than ever before. I would be a very happy Laker if either Giannis or Davis ends up wearing purple and gold one day in the not too distant future. Locals like Harden, Westbrook and Kawhi missing the train is bad enough as it is already.

Leo_Messi said:

Speaking about greatness. Giannis is something else. His nickname could not be more spot on. So far he must be the favorite for this season's MVP alongside James Harden who literally carries Houston offensively. More than ever before.

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Don't think Harden is even in the conversation for MVP, right now Kawhi,Lebron, Jokic & Paul George are ahead of him.

Leo_Messi said:

I would be a very happy Laker if either Giannis or Davis ends up wearing purple and gold one day in the not too distant future. Locals like Harden, Westbrook and Kawhi missing the train is bad enough as it is already.

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Hopefully that will never happen and e whole "build in free agency" trend slows down. Lakers are almost bullying Pelicans to get Davis

khaled_a_d said:

Don't think Harden is even in the conversation for MVP, right now Kawhi,Lebron, Jokic & Paul George are ahead of him.



Hopefully that will never happen and e whole "build in free agency" trend slows down. Lakers are almost bullying Pelicans to get Davis

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I agree with most of those names that you have mentioned with the exception of Paul George. If you include guys like him I am rather baffled by your exclusion of Harden who averages 31.8 points per game (highest in the league), 8.4 assists and 5.7 rebounds per game. He basically carries Houston offensively alongside Paul who has been out for a few games and who pulled his hamstring once again in the latest game against Miami. Not only that Harden may be one of the very best offensive players ever. It's amazing what he can do offensively and he is only getting better.



Not sure about the bullying part. Davis has been respectful so far and the league concluded that there was no tapping up. Davis would have to agree to a significantly smaller deal than what the Pelicans can offer should he decide to move to LA which he hopefully will as he will never win anything with the Pelicans. 30 points, 20 rebounds and 5 assists while clearly not being 100% fit (flu) yet the Pelicans were never close to winning. For the Pelicans to win regularly, Davis has to play at 90-100%. It must be annoying and frustrating. Anyway it is good for the league that the talent is spread across so many franchises and the league might never have been as leveled as it is currently. It's great fun.

You don't win an mvp when your team is barely over .500 in the nba, Giannis, Curry, Leonard, James are all clearly ahead.