Arsenal

Jair Ventura · Mar 21, 2015

Jenks said:
He was in your last squad

Well, that's irrelevant since he's failed to make the current team, and the current team is the one we're discussing.

and both Wilshere and Ramsey are comfortably better players

No, they aren't. In terms of league play, they currently grade out as follows:

Ramsey: 7.02

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/26820

Wilshere: 6.69

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/42686/Show/Jack-Wilshere

Sissoko: 6.86

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/29595

Nothing definitive, but more credible than either of our individual opinions. And they've graded out as average to below average, all of them.

ergo they would both be able to get into a France squad.

They would not. They aren't better than the aforementioned French midfielders.

Although I've forgotten why this is even a point of contention given that Arsenal have Ozil, Rosicky, Cazorla etc.

Rosicky is garbage. Cazorla and Ozil are pretty good though.

But, it's a point of contention because I've stated there isn't much separating Monaco and Arsenal's rosters outside of Alexis Sanchez. We're now establishing that.

Compelling counter-argument

There's nothing to argue. You believe Arsenal's 3-1 defeat was the fault of themselves and themselves alone. I believe that the side that finished as runners up to PSG last season in Ligue 1, who are currently 4th place in the same competition with a game in hand; the side that bested Bayer Leverkusen, Zenit, Benifica, and Arsenal en route to earning their way to the semi's of UCL were competent enough to effectively attack on the counter to the demise of an English side that underestimated their forward capabilities.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

City aren't the best the EPL has to offer either, Chelsea are, and there's plenty between Chelsea and Arsenal. And again, a sample size of... one, is not worth drawing conclusions from. If this tie is evidence of Monaco being on Arsenal's level than Bradford City are ready for the Premier League.

Excuse me, "bests". Monaco dispatched the "bests" the EPL has to offer. Similarly, Paris, the one club to whom Monaco is inferior in France, dispatched the "best" of the EPL in Chelsea. Perhaps you overestimate the EPL?

In any case, I've pointed towards more than just this tie as evidence of that these clubs are of similar quality. Primary of those things being Monaco's success over the last few years in both domestic and continental competitions, having a much stronger youth and development system, youth in their senior side of rare class and quality, and the financial flexibility to compete on the transfer market that few clubs possess.

The stage is irrelevant, certainly less relevant than the calibre of opposition anyway.

Sure, if you're English and or ignorant. I can't think of anyone else who'd compare performance in the FA cup to that of performance in the UCL. A grand display in one warrants greater respect than the other for obvious reasons.

It does if you draw the first game.

....

In the same competition, Arsenal would have been eliminated after getting beaten 3-1, so I'm confused as to why you even mentioned it. For both our sakes, we're just going to pretend you didn't and move along.

Your point seems to change fairly regularly.

My point has always been that these clubs are the same level. Do you need help following along?

Edit: Cant get over the irony of French clubs supposedly being inferior in quality to their English counterparts when the Arsenal vs. Newcastle game featured scores exclusively from French players. Arsenal being lead by a French manager whose career started blossomed after a stay at... Monaco.

KingMessi · Mar 21, 2015

Off topic but, Juvens, what is your avatar from? It looks interesting.

messi2140 · Mar 21, 2015

Reminds me of dishonored the game.

KingMessi · Mar 21, 2015

messi2140 said:
Reminds me of dishonored the game.

From what I played of it, great game. Shame that it kept crashing my PS3.

KyletheMuslim · Mar 21, 2015

Newcastle ran them ragged in the second half, it's a shame Arsenal got all 3 points

messi2140 · Mar 21, 2015

KingMessi said:
From what I played of it, great game. Shame that it kept crashing my PS3.

A shame indeed , try to get it on PC , steam sales are coming soon.

xavi_the_Boss · Mar 21, 2015

KingMessi said:
Off topic but, Juvens, what is your avatar from? It looks interesting.

It is the cover of a hip hop album.

Jenks · Mar 21, 2015

Juvens said:
Well, that's irrelevant since he's failed to make the current team, and the current team is the one we're discussing.

Um, no it isn't. We were comparing players that had been capped for France with players you reckon wouldn't have had any caps for France.

Nothing definitive, but more credible than either of our individual opinions.

Couldn't disagree more. Those scoring systems are absurdly facile.

But, it's a point of contention because I've stated there isn't much separating Monaco and Arsenal's rosters outside of Alexis Sanchez. We're now establishing that.

You said "Monaco > Arsenal. Deal with it."

Excuse me, "bests". Monaco dispatched the "bests" the EPL has to offer.

Are you gambling on me being too lazy to scroll back or something? Because that isn't what you said.

Sure, if you're English and or ignorant. I can't think of anyone else who'd compare performance in the FA cup to that of performance in the UCL. A grand display in one warrants greater respect than the other for obvious reasons.

The point of contention was my assertion that Bradford's defeat of Chelsea was a more comprehensive victory. How worthy of respect it was or the level of play involved is neither here nor there. Not sure what the English comment is about, Anglophobia perhaps?

In the same competition, Arsenal would have been eliminated after getting beaten 3-1, so I'm confused as to why you even mentioned it. For both our sakes, we're just going to pretend you didn't and move along.

The structure of the competition is not relevant to the point being made, I can't understand why you'd think it could be.

My point has always been that these clubs are the same level. Do you need help following along?

I think you should scroll back through the thread and re-read your posts, lest you embarrass yourself further.

Cant get over the irony of French clubs supposedly being inferior in quality to their English counterparts when the Arsenal vs. Newcastle game featured scores exclusively from French players. Arsenal being lead by a French manager whose career started blossomed after a stay at... Monaco.

I don't see any irony, given that neither are French clubs. You're the one trying to turn this into an England vs. France thing, nobody else.

KingMessi · Mar 21, 2015

xavi_the_Boss said:
It is the cover of a hip hop album.

Thanks. Which one though? :lol:

DonAK · Mar 21, 2015

David Guetta one I think.

KingMessi · Mar 21, 2015

DonAK said:
David Guetta one I think.

I don't think so.

xavi_the_Boss · Mar 21, 2015

KingMessi said:
Thanks. Which one though?

I think Madvillainy.

Ode to Django · Mar 21, 2015

It's MF Doom

doooooooom

KingMessi · Mar 21, 2015

xavi_the_Boss said:
I think Madvillainy.

Ode to Django said:
It's MF Doom

doooooooom

Thanks.

Jair Ventura · Mar 21, 2015

Jenks said:
Um, no it isn't. We were comparing players that had been capped for France with players you reckon wouldn't have had any caps for France.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're serious or trolling, but why would I be referring to past French sides when I'm speaking in the context of now? I didn't say Wilshire or Ramsey wouldn't have been called up last year, or 5 years ago, or a decade back. No, I said they wouldn't be called up today. In the now. You then bring up Sissoko as evidence to the contrary when Sissoko is no longer part of the national team as he's been replaced for the very same reasons I said Wilshire and Ramsey wouldn't play.

Couldn't disagree more. Those scoring systems are absurdly facile.

Unfortunately, your disagreement isn't enough to displace the credibility of the source. Whoscored is reputable, come up with your own formula to grade performance if there's, is as you say, "facile". Until that time my assessment appears pretty damned accurate.

You said "Monaco > Arsenal. Deal with it."

I won't bother quoting the post I was responding to for context, instead I'll assist you in following the conversation:

beautifulgame said:
Monaco is a decent team and Arsenal is about that level. Maybe even slightly lower.

Your problem is you overrate Arsenal here as if they are Bayern, Real, Barca, Chelsea or Atleti.

Ketoth said:
...We are better than Monaco. Monaco got lucky. The first leg was a complete off day from us, happens to everyone, unfortunately it came at the wrong time for us.

Ini8 said:
Two seasons ago, Monaco weren't even in Ligue 1. Arsenal is a consistent CL team, in the sense they manage to qualify for tournament and go through the group stage every year. Now you tell me Monaco and Arsenal are about the same level? You can't be serious.

My opening post on the matter:

Since Rybolovlev bought into the club, stabilizing their finances, Monaco is about the same level as Arsenal.

My follow up post:

Juvens said:
Arsenal has better advertising/marketing than Monaco. I'll lend them that.

Juvens said:
The only player that differentiates Arsenal from Monaco is Alexis Sanchez.

Etc.

My point has been well established throughout. Trying to pigeonhole my argument to a single comment where I was obviously trolling an Arsenal fan serves this conversation in no way. The essence of my argument has been clear.

Are you gambling on me being too lazy to scroll back or something? Because that isn't what you said.

The meaning of "excuse me" is apparently as lost on you as well.

My initial comment was "best", when it should have been "bests". Monaco knocked out the "bests" the EPL has to offer, not the "best".

The point of contention was my assertion that Bradford's defeat of Chelsea was a more comprehensive victory.

Yes, I know. You pointed towards their having won by 2 goals away from home as evidence of that fact. Except Monaco also won by 2 goals away from home.

How worthy of respect it was or the level of play involved is neither here nor there. Not sure what the English comment is about, Anglophobia perhaps?

So... in a conversation of whose victory was most comprehensive, the quality and importance of the competition is irrelevant?

The structure of the competition is not relevant to the point being made, I can't understand why you'd think it could be.

This is where I decide you're trolling.

Your point was that "Bradford didn't lose at home". A comment meant to insult the fact that, after beating Arsenal 3-1 at the Emirates, Monaco lost in the return leg at the principality. But Bradford never played Chelsea a second time, so how could they lose at home? Of course they didn't lose in the return leg in a competition that features no return legs. In the same competition, Monaco wouldn't have lost at home either, so why the hell would you bring it up?

I think you should scroll back through the thread and re-read your posts, lest you embarrass yourself further.

I'm not worried.

I don't see any irony, given that neither are French clubs. You're the one trying to turn this into an England vs. France thing, nobody else.

You apparently miss or don't see a lot of things.

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