Juventus

Wolfe said:

Your mixing of contexts is so unnecessary, I don't know why you do it. After all these months, you're still holding onto the Roma argument as if it holds any ground lol. Roma 17/18 is a completely different team on every level to what they were this year. Them not making CL spots this year is completely normal after losing one of the best GKs in the world, their midfield engine and all else just getting older. By all intents and purposes they made the semis on very similar motivational high as Ajax did, despite being a bit older and less systematic.
The only statement that should be made is that EV should have done better and shouldn't have let the meltdown happen. Which he obviously shouldn't. The rest about Roma's relative level through the years isn't true or important. Teams often change from month to month, much less from season to season.

As for Allegri.. I partly agree, but I feel like you've got this tick that any comparison that doesn't automatically criticise EV is meant to flatter him. Lol, no? Both are totally flawed. No need to look for their positions on a spectrum or anything. No point resolving which one is worse or better. Both aren't fit for purpose of securing ties against European opposition.

What Allegri had going for him was lots of positive momentum in Europe when the team was peaking between 2015-2017. They've moved on from Pirlo and kept the CBs from Conte setup who were at the top of their game. Dybala broke through to add more flavour. But their window wasn't ever going to last long if he didn't make changes. And he didn't. Last year they were very close to being out to Spurs and got brutally exposed at home while only coming back into the tie as a function of RM 17/18 complacency. Allegri as a coach and manager hasn't learned a thing since that 2017 final. They got completely duped into buying an old finisher who is looking for easy silverware and lax tax laws. Accommodating him came at a massive cost to their other plans. Smart free-transfer buys don't happen for CBs. One Cancelo doesn't fix their issues. Same sorts of stories as you hear at Barca.

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You're the one that compared them. I just pointed out that the comparison is off base. That's all. 2 CL finals in which he only lost to clearly better sides is not to be taken lightly.

I don't know why you keep bigging up Valverde like you do. Don't compare him to managers like Simeone, Klopp, Allegri, who have had success in Europe managing teams with half of Barcelona's resources or even less.

serghei said:

I don't know why you keep bigging up Valverde like you do. Don't compare him to managers like Simeone, Klopp, Allegri, who have had success in Europe managing teams with half of Barcelona's resources or even less.

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Lol, why on earth not? He's clearly worse. Comparison done. And somehow mentioning him in the same sentence as any of the above to you equates to endorsement... Bigging up? It's clear what EV's influence is - steady cruise control while having players play boring but responsible (given their age) football, and only failures coming from lack of focus in key moments, not the tactics themselves.

All the same the lines between the three managers you mentioned are blurry with Allegri being the least impressive of all by some margin.

I don't understand the resources argument either. Why has this appeared? They've had the same or more quality than Barcelona for nearly 3 years. Nor are they restricted on spending.

Wolfe said:

Lol, why on earth not? He's clearly worse. Comparison done. And somehow mentioning him in the same sentence as any of the above to you equates to endorsement... Bigging up? It's clear what EV's influence is - steady cruise control while having players play boring but responsible (given their age) football, and only failures coming from lack of focus in key moments, not the tactics themselves.

All the same the lines between the three managers you mentioned are blurry with Allegri being the least impressive of all by some margin.

I don't understand the resources argument either. Why has this appeared? They've had the same or more quality than Barcelona for nearly 3 years. Nor are they restricted on spending.

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Juventus were knocked out in CL in the Group Stages by Galatasaray (lol) before Allegri came. With him, in 12 months, they went from that, to knocking out Madrid and playing the CL final. With roughly the same players.

And you compare this manager with Valverde? Same resources with Barcelona and 300m. worth of subs? Lol.

Steady cruise control? Dominating La Liga is our thing, it's not something Valverde brought. That's like crediting Allegri for Juventus winning the Serie A in the last 3 years. They did that with Conte, and due to the lack of serious competition they would do it with many other managers.

Valverde should have delivered in the CL. He didn't. Allegri did.

Same resources with Barcelona and 300m. worth of subs? Lol.

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That says more about Barcelona than it does about Juventus' spending. They secured all CBs and most of the midfield for less than 50m over several windows.

Steady cruise control? Dominating La Liga is our thing, it's not something Valverde brought.

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Yeah. Winning La Liga while losing less than, what, 10 games(?), across all competitions in 2 years is your thing. With 31 year olds occupying half of each formation. Totally.

The rest we agree on. Funny that. It's only a certain acronym that makes you pop out of your hidey hole.

Wolfe said:

That says more about Barcelona than it does about Juventus' spending. They secured all CBs and most of the midfield for less than 50m over several windows.



Yeah. Winning La Liga while losing less than, what, 10 games(?), across all competitions in 2 years is your thing. With 31 year olds occupying half of each formation. Totally.

The rest we agree on. Funny that. It's only a certain acronym that makes you pop out of your hidey hole.

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It is. Check it out. The season with Tata Martino which is considered a terrible one we finished with almost 90 points (87), same as now. With Lucho, another losing season in La Liga we finished with 90 points in 2016-17. In 2011-12 we finished with 91 points.

So, the last 2 seasons with Valverde are not uncommon at all. More in the line of our average points totals in the Messi era.

I guess you can attribute it most to our great league team, led by the great Messi who is the all time scorer in Spanish Tier 1 Division.

So, no Valverde's league statistic are very much normal for Barcelona. It's his incredible fuck-ups in Europe that stand out like never before in the last decade.

serghei said:

It is. Check it out. The season with Tata Martino which is considered a terrible one we finished with almost 90 points (87), same as now. With Lucho, another losing season in La Liga we finished with 90 points in 2016-17. In 2011-12 we finished with 91 points.

So, the last 2 seasons with Valverde are not uncommon at all. More in the line of our average points totals.

I guess you can attribute it most to our great league team, led by the great Messi who is the all time scorer in Spanish Tier 1 Division.

So, no Valverde's league statistic are very much normal for Barcelona. It's his incredible fuck-ups in Europe that stand out like never before in the last decade.

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Don't know what is there to check out. You've got the case of one season that is remotely comparable to the 2 years of EV, where you had a coach who was making the best out of players who weren't getting any younger.
I never really understood the hate Tata got. Gives you perspective on 13/14 season when Tata had to make things happen out of post-prime Xavi (34), Iniesta (30), Alves (31, who albeit was good-to-great until his departure anyway) and Mascherano out of position, while the 4 guys upfront + Fabregas made things happen. Unless you count Puyol who was retiring and played 12 games, that makes 3 ageing core players tops. Not 6.

Doesn't make it your 'thing' at all.

Wolfe said:

Don't know what is there to check out. You've got the case of one season that is remotely comparable to the 2 years of EV, where you had a coach who was making the best out of players who weren't getting any younger.
I never really understood the hate Tata got. Gives you perspective on 13/14 season when Tata had to make things happen out of post-prime Xavi (34), Iniesta (30), Alves (31, who albeit was good-to-great until his departure anyway) and Mascherano out of position, while the 4 guys upfront + Fabregas made things happen. Unless you count Puyol who was retiring and played 12 games, that makes 3 ageing core players tops. Not 6.

Doesn't make it your 'thing' at all.

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You give managers way too much leeway man. I think you could even make a case that would turn Lopetegui into an unlucky poor fellow that just got dealt a raw deal from Madrid.

And maybe that would be true, but it wouldn't mean Lopetegui is a good manager.

It's the same with Valverde. Sure he has some issues to fix, and it's hard, but it doesn't mean that suddenly the pressure of being a Barcelona manager should disappear just because the team is not perfect.

Martino, Valverde, these guys didn't show enough qualities to lead a complicated team like Barcelona. Contrary to popular opinion it's not easy to manage squads filled with pampered overpaid superstars who've won it all before.

serghei said:

You give managers way too much leeway man. I think you could even make a case that would turn Lopetegui into an unlucky poor fellow that just got dealt a raw deal from Madrid.

And maybe that would be true, but it wouldn't mean Lopetegui is a good manager.

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Leeway? Six players over 31 who used to define Barca as a European force, who think they're as good as they were when they were 27. Plus a board of directors who don't want to look for replacements well ahead of time and end up buying an Arthur or a Semedo in the same summer, or the one after, Iniesta/Dani Alves are gone. But of course, it's the fault of managers that a top player like Paco Alcacer was not given appropriate time to make Suarez worry about his spot more. Nothing to do with idiotic direction of football and scouting. Which incidentally has nothing to do with buying Coutinho for a position that doesn't exist (or isn't unoccupied) at Barcelona to which even Klopp was raising his eyebrows. Or that Neymar left you twiddling your thumbs in a manner nobody in the directorate, be it managers or backroom staff, saw coming and to which you had no idea how to react on an institutional level. So you went and spent 130 on a first good lad who while shaky might actually be alright. Lucky you. Haha.

I don't know why it is you feel like you need to bring a Lopetegui into this and strawman the crap out of something just because you don't like EV being credited for anything. "Manager is too poor for a team that is too good." or "we should aim high", or "they don't show leader qualities".

Sure. Aim high. Get the entitled players to fuck off and make room. But sitting there and pretending like losing under 10 domestic games in 2 years combined with a squad full of old dudes and no real leader of the dressing room is not worth a bit of a praise or isn't even a little bit impressive is a bit rich.

Wolfe said:

What exactly does he have that EV doesn't? More domestic titles? Let EV coach for 2-3 more years and we'll see. Their failures are actually almost perfect mirror images when you set aside the manner of major losses each of them suffered. They're cut from the same cloth. Boring football, reluctance to break the core, lack of consistency in playing to the strengths of younger talent, regularly outcoached in bigger European fixtures. There is seldom a better comparison Europe-wide.

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Before Allegri Juve were a joke in Europe. The sides he lost to I the finals were peak Barça and Madrid.
I'd love it if Valverde went to Madrid and did the same bottle job. Would you still rate him?

There was a time when we wanted Cuadrado as our right back

Wolfe said:

Leeway? Six players over 31 who used to define Barca as a European force, who think they're as good as they were when they were 27. Plus a board of directors who don't want to look for replacements well ahead of time and end up buying an Arthur or a Semedo in the same summer, or the one after, Iniesta/Dani Alves are gone. But of course, it's the fault of managers that a top player like Paco Alcacer was not given appropriate time to make Suarez worry about his spot more. Nothing to do with idiotic direction of football and scouting. Which incidentally has nothing to do with buying Coutinho for a position that doesn't exist (or isn't unoccupied) at Barcelona to which even Klopp was raising his eyebrows. Or that Neymar left you twiddling your thumbs in a manner nobody in the directorate, be it managers or backroom staff, saw coming and to which you had no idea how to react on an institutional level. So you went and spent 130 on a first good lad who while shaky might actually be alright. Lucky you. Haha.

I don't know why it is you feel like you need to bring a Lopetegui into this and strawman the crap out of something just because you don't like EV being credited for anything. "Manager is too poor for a team that is too good." or "we should aim high", or "they don't show leader qualities".

Sure. Aim high. Get the entitled players to fuck off and make room. But sitting there and pretending like losing under 10 domestic games in 2 years combined with a squad full of old dudes and no real leader of the dressing room is not worth a bit of a praise or isn't something special is a bit rich.

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Out of curiosity, do you approve the fact that Madrid sacked Lopetegui and then Solari, even though Florentino Perez crippled the team by selling Ronaldo? Or do you think they should have kept Lopetegui or at least Solari?

Just want to make sure how you rank on the hypocritical prick scale.

[MENTION=1838]Barcilliant[/MENTION]
Define 'rate'. He brings trophies while maintaining players on auto-pilot and mediating the defensive side of the game as best he can. This 4-4-2 actually makes Pique and Busquets look less past-it than they are.

Sorry if it sounds like 'too good' for an opinion.

serghei said:

Out of curiosity, do you approve the fact that Madrid sacked Lopetegui and then Solari, even though Florentino Perez crippled the team by selling Ronaldo? Or you think they were right calls.

Just want to make sure how you rank on the hypocritical prick scale.

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1) You know the answer, we've been over this a 1000 times on the forum, ever since you started the mind-numbing crusade against Lopetegui stemming from the Spain fiasco.
2) Team wasn't crippled just by selling Ronaldo. Team was equally crippled by 2-3 consecutive windows (while Ronaldo was here) of not bringing in any offensive refreshment, giving new contracts to Bale and Benzema in expectation they would carry the load, while counting on pace and cross merchants to all of a sudden start doing Di Maria dribbling from the wings and drawing fouls.
3) Why the name-calling? Everyone sees how neatly you avoid the age of core players that play the most and how you love to go the easy way placing the blame on the manager as first line of defense in club squad management. No need to make it obvious.

Wolfe said:

1) You know the answer, we've been over this a 1000 times on the forum, ever since you started the mind-numbing crusade against Lopetegui stemming from the Spain fiasco.
2) Team wasn't crippled just by selling Ronaldo. Team was equally crippled by 2-3 consecutive windows (while Ronaldo was here) of not bringing in any offensive refreshment, giving new contracts to Bale and Benzema in expectation they would carry the load, while counting on pace and cross merchants to all of a sudden start doing Di Maria dribbling from the wings and drawing fouls.
3) Why the name-calling? Everyone sees how neatly you avoid the age of core players that play the most and how you love to go the easy way placing the blame on the manager as first line of defense in club squad management. No need to make it obvious.

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At one point last year you were a very arduous supporter of Ceballos and Asensio, two attacking midfielders. Now you've turned 180 degrees and say they haven't brought any offensive refreshments.

They have, but the young players they've signed haven't stepped up in the absence of Ronaldo. Many of their recent signings have disappointed.

Barca have bought Dembele and Coutinho, two young offensive refreshments on the winger, and winger-CAM positions. Plus Malcom. Haven't been great, also because of the manager who is just bad at developing players, because he doesn't have an offensive system and likes veteran players.

When every player you sign plays worse at your club than they did at the previous club, something is clearly wrong with the manager. Every single young player we've brought in has declined under Valverde.

At the end of the day the manager is the one person in charge with shaping the team and elevating the players. This is the reason Lopetegui, Solari have been sacked. This is also the reason why Valverde should be sacked. Because he has had quality players on his hands and was unable to create a team that can compete in Europe. Nobody other than Valverde has decided that a great ball retainer under pressure is not needed vs a high pressing team like Liverpool, and defending deep is the way to go.

And the reason why Zidane will be sacked too if the rebuilding of Madrid goes sour.

serghei said:

At one point last year you were a very arduous supporter of Ceballos and Asensio, two attacking midfielders. Now you've turned 180 degrees and say they haven't brought any offensive refreshments.

They have, but the young players they've signed haven't stepped up in the absence of Ronaldo. Many of their recent signings have disappointed.

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Ceballos is a CM, so stop the BS that you have written on your agenda for years repeating the same tripe without a sense of critique. He was tested in a Modrić role all along during his tenure here and played further up the pitch in only select matches as a rotation option or due to injuries of others, mostly Isco. He hasn't failed or made a massive mark. Nor was he expected to explode with talent. And nobody really thinks he is finished here either, but he's not ready so it's best he goes and that we secure buyback if possible.

And no, they haven't brought offensive refreshment at all. 8 out of 10 offensive players are exactly the same since the summer of 2017 when James left. That's 3 windows with only Mariano brought in to support. Vinicius is already surplus to expectations and shouldn't probably be a regular starter, but it wouldn't hurt if he were to split the minutes should he be to stay this year.

Asensio disappointed with his lack of maturity and assessing his work is probably the only real failure of this board and hopes of us fans. Because they were just hopes, only occasionally fueled by Asensio himself who wanted a chance to make his mark. He didn't.

There was no serious striker to create that Higuain-Benzema competition that led us to 11/12 Liga for nearly 4 years now. Morata wasn't good enough with his feet to displace Benzema despite having a goal every 88 mins of game time and it's a major component of us having enough league scorers either way.

Lack of Di Maria replacement who left in 2014(!) who absorbed so much attention and allowed others to play off him is still a glaring problem only mediated briefly by Marcelo and Isco in quarterly spells.

Offense is a problem. But so is defense, this season in particular.

Barca have bought Dembele and Coutinho, two young offensive refreshments on the winger, and winger-CAM positions. Plus Malcom. Haven't been great, also because of the manager who is just bad at developing players, because he doesn't have an offensive system and likes veteran players.

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You've bought both in the same window their predecessors left, which is no way to break a player you need to fulfill a certain role into a new position or a new club. Turns out Coutinho sucks almost wherever he plays and 4-4-2/4-3-3 is necessary.

Also he likes vets and experienced players like managers who want to win things do.

INB4 Ajax argument pops up

Every single young player we've brought in has declined under Valverde.

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Dembele doesn't seem to have declined. Semedo doesn't seem to have declined. Lenglet is arguably MVP of the season for you lot. Alena played 1000 minutes and from memory did reasonably well despite clearly being less solid

But Malcom sits in the stands so it invalidates any of the above. I guess...

At the end of the day the manager is the one person in charge with shaping the team and elevating the players. This is the reason Lopetegui, Solari have been sacked.

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Nope. Neither got sacked for that reason. They got sacked because of bad runs of results in both cases and inability to prepare the same players who nearly got Zidane sacked last year too. Group identity of these lot is what made us start losing so much. And to break it up they had to suffer their own reality checks. Everyone now knows Marcelo is nearly finished with some lingering hope. Everyone knows Benzema had a bit more in the tank, but still won't do the basic striker things well regularly. Everyone knows Modrić is either a goner or in his 'Xavi 2015' year. But these players didn't know. And even a club legend couldn't break this to them, much less would anybody else be able to.

And the reason why Zidane will be sacked too if the rebuilding of Madrid goes sour.

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Sure. Which doesn't prove anything other than a guy who hasn't done a rebuilding project before, fail in his first one. It just so happens a rebuilding project involves making a team score again at frequencies anywhere near comparable to those we had with Ronaldo in the team. Because that's what fickle fans will expect of us - always reach for the highest bar that's been set. Piss easy

Pretty sure he knows all that as well, which actually comes across in most of his conferences. And so does everybody and their mother. Today he got asked if it wasn't a waste of time coming back early rather than in the summer and Zidane replied "On the contrary, I had to be here for this".

But to you I guess if he fails here all he will be is a failed coach. Can already see the narrative developing.

Dude, after all this time I still don't know what your point is? That Barca/Madrid have had some other problems BESIDES average managers (Benitez, Valverde, Lopetegui, Martino etc.) these years?

Hell yea, sure, and you see people blaming the veterans and the board all the time. It still doesn't change that the manager needs to be sacked. Madrid did it each time every quickly (got rid of Benitez, Lope, Solari after a few months). We need to do it as well. Hell, should've done it sooner.

There's just no way to dispute that. Almost every Barca fan here knows it.

Valverde doesn't play the has-beens all the time because he has to. He fucking loves them. He loves Rakitic - Busi, that's why he left Arthur on the bench more and more as the season progressed.

You make it sound as if Valverde wants to build a new team but is somehow forced not to. When everything indicates the opposite. He has had new fresh blood and he's just tossed it aside, and used the veterans to death in the big games. Because that's what he likes to do, since experienced players is the 'safer' approach.

The biggest roadblock in the rejuvenation of this team has been Valverde. He is the reason why Dembele was a sub vs Roma instead of exploiting the space behind their lines, or why Arthur was a sub vs Liverpool when our midfield caved under pressure.