Ukraine

People always remember misses more I think, especially in massive games.

Jenks said:

People always remember misses more I think, especially in massive games.

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Sure they do. Especially in Sheva's and Messi's case.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but if you mentioned Sheva and penalties, then the miss in the 2005 final is the first thing I would think of. These things are remembered because they're unexpected and unusual, and because they matter so much. Just like how Zidane will be remembered as much for his headbutt as anything else.

Jenks said:

Well, I can only speak for myself, but if you mentioned Sheva and penalties, then the miss in the 2005 final is the first thing I would think of. These things are remembered because they're unexpected and unusual, and because they matter so much. Just like how Zidane will be remembered as much for his headbutt as anything else.

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Seriously? That must be an English thing (since that happened against an English team - Liverpool). I have never heard about an milanista or neutral who remembered Sheva more for his miss against Liverpool than his decisive penalty goal against Juve in the 2003 CL-final and other highlights of his career.

I mean the Messi example is a good one.

About Zizou. Sure people remember it because it was extremely controversial and happened in a World Cup final (does not get bigger). But I think most still remember him mostly (by far) as a legend of the game and all his amazing career highlights (the 2 goals against Brazil in the 1998 World Cup final) his display in the EURO's 2000, his amazing goal in the CL-final against Leverkusen etc. than anything else.

I mean that's what people actually look at (Youtube) and talk about more than his headbutt.

Noone remembers the borefest of the 2003 final let alone who scored the winning penalty. Everyone even non football supporters know about Shevchenko's miss in 2005.

Ask 100 people (non milan and liverpool supporters) about Shevchenko and penalties and I bet 90% immediately think of his miss.

People remember misses rather than successes in penalties.

Words of "wisdom" from Ukraine's coach, Oleg Blokhin (in 2006)

“The more Ukrainians that play in the national league, the more examples for the young generation.

“Let them learn from Shevchenko or Blokhin and not from some zumba-bumba whom they took off a tree, gave him two bananas and now he plays in the Ukrainian League.”

How is this guy still coach after saying something like that?

Robbie said:

Words of "wisdom" from Ukraine's coach, Oleg Blokhin (in 2006)

“The more Ukrainians that play in the national league, the more examples for the young generation.

“Let them learn from Shevchenko or Blokhin and not from some zumba-bumba whom they took off a tree, gave him two bananas and now he plays in the Ukrainian League.”

How is this guy still coach after saying something like that?

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I'd have him extradited for such shit

What a insane comment by a national coach. WTF?!

AnfieldEd:

This is getting ridicolous. Why are you always trying to have a different opinion even if it's against common sense?

Do you seriously think that most people will remember Sheva for his miss against Liverpool in the 2005 CL final rather than his decisive penalty goal against Juve in the 2003 CL Final and ALL OTHER of his career highlights?

If you still insist on your first claim then consider this "discussion" over.

The same about Zidane. A player widely regarded as one of the best, a player that has achieved everything a football player can dream about, scored goals in two World Cup finals, scored a decisive goal (voted the best CL goal in history) in a CL-final, winning leagues in Italy and Spain, entertaining millions of people across the world etc.

To claim that people will remember him more because of his headbutt than anything else makes no sense either. I don't know if it's the English mentality to always look at things in a negative way. I have never heard such claims from anyone.
I am willing to bet that most people remember legends of the game such as Sheva, Zidane, Maradona (talk about a player that was sourrounded by controversy his whole career) for their contribution to the game rather than their failures (in Sheva's and Zidane's case that part is a very little part of their overall careers).

I mean that's what people actually look at (Youtube) and talk about more than Zidane's headbutt and Sheva's missed penalty against Liverpool. Come on.

Who remembers whom based on what kinda incident is really his own personal choice...

For ex. Liverpool supporters obviously remember Sheva's miss more fondly

And I thnink you can't really say it's English thing either... I'm positive Chelsea fans would try to remember more of Terry's goal line clearance of a Giggs' shot into open goal rather than his slip!!

Aryagorn said:

Who remembers whom based on what kinda incident is really his own personal choice...

For ex. Liverpool supporters obviously remember Sheva's miss more fondly

And I thnink you can't really say it's English thing either... I'm positive Chelsea fans would try to remember more of Terry's goal line clearance of a Giggs' shot into open goal rather than his slip!!

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Yeah, I got the point but we are talking about ZIDANE and Sheva of all players. I mean those guys, especially Zidane had so many career highlights that it's not even funny. I really struggle to believe that the majority remember him more for his headbutt than his amazing career.

It also make no sense based on the interest on Youtube and general discussions. I have never talked about Maradona, Zidane and other legends of the game and first mentioned their failures, have you? When I think about Maradona I don't think about his cocaine addiction first or his fight against Bilbao in the 1980's and other career lows.

Imagine sitting with a few of your friends and talking about football, including individual players. Would you seriously start your conversation/arguments by starting to talk about his headbutt if you talked about Zidane?

Or if Messi never wins a World Cup would you talk about him being a failure for Argentina rather than one of the best players in football history? Or what about Messi now? He has had his best season in his life and scored about 80 goals for club and country (Can't remember the exact number).

But do you really think that most (we are discussing what they will be remembered for the most) would talk about his missed penalty against Chelsea in the CL-semifinal or his season overall and amazing records?

I just don't get that logic if that's REALLY the case with most as AnfieldED and Jenks claims (both English and both fans of English football so of course they will remember Sheva's miss against Liverpool (an English team) more than anything else, especially when they have no wide interest in Italian football or are fans of a Italian club. Remember it's the overall perception not a perception of a limited groups of football fans (in this case an Liverpool fan form England and an fan of English football)

It's an interesting discussion because I think it would be sad if legends of the game REALLY are remembered more for their failures than actual success (which the overwhelming part of their career's have been). No, that can't be right. And should that really be the case then that's a sad, sad thing.

Aryagorn said:

For ex. Liverpool supporters obviously remember Sheva's miss more fondly

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yeh, personally that's what I think of too but that's because that was such a great night for me. But he's also remembered for good reasons. And that miss doesn't discredit all his positive contributions.

Like I remember Gerard for his back pass to Henry that ended up being a goal

I think also what Ed is trying to say, though I might be wrong, is when "Sheva" and "penalty" is mentioned in the same sentence, what would they think of first. Not just "Sheva" in general.

DucdeOrléans said:

Yeah, I got the point but we are talking about ZIDANE and Sheva of all players. I mean those guys, especially Zidane had so many career highlights that it's not even funny. I really struggle to believe that the majority remember him more for his headbutt than his amazing career.

It also make no sense based on the interest on Youtube and general discussions. I have never talked about Maradona, Zidane and other legends of the game and first mentioned their failures, have you? When I think about Maradona I don't think about his cocaine addiction first or his fight against Bilbao in the 1980's and other career lows.

Imagine sitting with a few of your friends and talking about football, including individual players. Would you seriously start your conversation/arguments by starting to talk about his headbutt if you talked about Zidane?

Or if Messi never wins a World Cup would you talk about him being a failure for Argentina rather than one of the best players in football history? Or what about Messi now? He has had his best season in his life and scored about 80 goals for club and country (Can't remember the exact number).

But do you really think that most (we are discussing what they will be remembered for the most) would talk about his missed penalty against Chelsea in the CL-semifinal or his season overall and amazing records?

I just don't get that logic if that's REALLY the case with most as AnfieldED and Jenks claims (both English and both fans of English football so of course they will remember Sheva's miss against Liverpool (an English team) more than anything else, especially when they have no wide interest in Italian football or fans of a Italian club. Remember it's the overall perception not a perception of a limited groups of football fans (in this case an Liverpool fan form England and an fan of English football)

It's an interesting discussion because I think it would be sad if legends of the game REALLY are remembered more for their failures than actual success (which the overwhelming part of their career's have been). No, that can't be right.

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Zidane - Even if we discuss his qualities, his awesome goals, his achievements at both the club level and NT there's ultimately gonna be a 'but'. The head butt incident is surely gonna come up, if only he controlled his emotions for a split second...
Funny thing is that there's no guarantee France would have won the match if he didn't get the card. It's just a hypothesis that he would have won it for them

If Messi didn't win the WC for his country... The 'but' is surely gonna haunt the football discussion involving Messi for eternity

You gave Maradona's example... Well, because he was surrounded by controversy every time the 'but' would not always come up. May be it's just the human nature! For example... if Messi missed an open net ala Torres, that would shock the people more than him scoring another out of this world golazo would!!

I can't really say that the first thing that comes up to some body's mind when the legends are mentioned would be that one stupid moment, but it is gonna come up more or less every time they are mentioned.
Also it depends on a lot of other things... like you have English fans would obviously know much less about the players doing well in other leagues as would the other fans about English players. May be the advancements of the internet would change this though

If that's the case (which I did not get a impression of at all) then that might be a reasonable claim. But it's nevertheless a strange discussion that he has started.

Is it better to score a decisive goal during a penalty shoutout in a CL-Final or miss a penalty in a CL-final? Apples or pears?

But that's were we can talk about personal experience.

If we are to judge a whole players career (in this case legends of the game) then such claims would be considered bogus in my eyes if we are trying to find a consensus and not just opinions from small selected groups of football fans (Liverpool fans, Chelsea fans etc.)

And I stil think that Jenks is of the opinion that Zidane is most remembered for his headbutt than anything else which I also find absurd. Given a lot of reasons for that. The same logic applies for other legends such as Maradona.

Estelman:

I think you have misunderstood me. I am not talking about that "what if" but what the majority would remember players such as Zidane, Maradona etc. for. Their amazing career highlights or their failures which are only a small part of their careers? I say the first other's the second and that's exactly a logic I don't get.