1 - Marc-Andre ter Ansplant

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
There is no such thing as luck in the goalkeeping position unless the shot hits the post after you make a bad move, or a shot which was going in gets deflected and goes out.

The shot went straight at you in a 1v1? Eh....That's what GKs are supposed to do. Position themselves to make the angle difficult for the player. If the player shoots at the GK then the GK has done his job well.

To call that for luck is ridiculous. What do you expect the GK to do? Not pick a side or cover the angle and dive when the player shoots instead? Russian roulette?

If that's luck then most GK saves are based on LUCK, because there are not those magnificent saves in every game. Most of the saves are the ones you describe.
 
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evilhita666

Barçapocalypse NOW!
Regarding the "luck" debate, I agree it's not some random circumstance that gives way to the save... I think the GK forges that "luck" in the same way a good poker player does, analyzing the situation and knowing when to commit or when to fold, so the GK is supposed to make odds favor him, be it by anticipation, reflexes, positioning, etc, so that "luck" is a skill by itself that can be trained and improved...

In this particular case, ter Stegen had a winning hand and he played it well, so credit must go to him for the saves, he did everything he had to do in order to stop the shots...

EDIT: catalicuntz stole my joke...
 

Potroh

New member
You directly diminished his game to just being lucky. Not being lucky in some cases, your exact words were "he had a LUCKY game", which is a statement you have thus far refused to actually explain.

Probably you should ask or interview highly qualified and contemporary players about the very phenomenon of "luck" in this game. You would probably wonder about the answers you'd get. Half of the players are superstitious, they make the sign of the cross when entering the field and when leaving it, they have their specific and individual "talismans" and so on and so forth. That's just because they don't dismiss the role of luck in the game, which you may also name as being "divine intervention", karma, fate or anything similar.

Players don't just employ and wish for luck, but they are also aware that there is always an unknown, unguidable factor involved in the game and even the best of the best crave for this unknown variable, besides doing their practical best on the grass.
"Even if we are the best we need to be also lucky" - told the best teams for themselves for decades, even if some good humans here and elsewhere think very differently. Believe me the players better know that, the fans and experts often tend to forget it or simply they don't know or care about it.
If someone doesn't know this, doesn't understand this, okay let it be his problem or lack of observational awareness.

Just a single and practical example: weren't the Portuguese "lucky" to win the EC last year? Of course they were, Fortuna was highly supporting them after not having won a single game in the firsts round. The 3:3 at Portugal-Hungary was the good example of that, Hungary scoring the 1st, 2nd and 3rd goals first. Mere luck (as far as the result goes) that Ronaldo could equalize very close to the end. If you watched that game, you would not have thought you've just seen the winner. Weren't they a bit lucky in the final without Ronaldo? Of course they were when a late substitute scored a goal from an almost accidental straight far shot, that does not go in in 90% of cases.

Of course teams and individual players need the "unknown factors" to be on their side. Those who deny that, think very differently compared to players and coaches...

Okay back to MATS, if I said "he had a lucky game", that means he had a game where luck was ALSO at his side. Besides being good, vigilant, alert he could not complain to the gods, because reaching a ball with the tip of a finger unfortunately also NEEDS a bit of luck. It of course can be practiced, etc. but sometimes it works for his advantage, whereas sometimes it does not. When it does, he is a bit lucky, regardless his great efforts. This factor that I call luck (and all players do) is an INTEGRAL FACTOR of this game.
It doesn't mean his entire performance just simply depended on luck, it means he ALSO needed that for the end-result.

And to answer your question, end result is what counts.

Understood. Unfortunately the end-result very often includes a bit of luck, as an unknown or uncountable variable, thus what you are saying is true, but sometimes the luckiest players are considered to be the best by the innocent fans, and their enthusiasm only last as long as the luck of a player does.
The best also need a bit of luck, there is a problem is if they don't have any, or it's often hardly noticeable if they are as good as Messi. In Paris Messi did the same dribbles that he usually does, tried the same nutmegs too, none worked, which you may interpret that Messi played badly, but also that he had no luck that day. He did his best, nothing worked. But a week earlier it did, a week from now it will again, so from his point of view or angle it was an unlucky day for him.

The entire MSN is known for trying to finish by a nutmeg, trying to shot in between the legs of the goalkeepers. They had dozens of goals like that. Recently Messi was luckier in this regard than Neymar, so he scored a lot like that, whereas Neymar's very similar shots were often intercepted. Reaction? Good folks wanted to cut Neymar's throat for not scoring enough. Were they right? Partially, because what they care about is the end result. But they should also know that even the best need to be a bit lucky to score like that.

I've seen hundreds of games where the worse team won with awful and inferior playing just by a lucky goal. You have also seen many games like that. The last one you saw four days ago. We were inferior but while playing awfully we finally won by a penalty. The end result what counts? Yes. By point or trophies, but a triumphant end result can be achieved in many different ways.
It's often not the best but the luckiest are rushing away with those trophies, a pity that in a few years only the end-results will be remembered.
 

Potroh

New member
There is no such thing as luck ... To call that for luck is ridiculous.

Fine with me. You are a spectator Mr.President.
But the players think and feel very differently, that's why they are making the sign of the cross all the time, thank the Lord or the Prophet after each goal they scored or prevented.
You are LUCKY because an entire aspect of this wonderful game escapes your attention but you yet feel to be as confident as possible to state something as being a general rule, that's simply something you failed to observe.
Believe me, the players themselves better know or feel this...
 
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DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Fine with me. You are a spectator Mr.President.
But the players think and feel very differently, that's why they are making the sign of the cross all the time, thank the Lord or the Prophet after each goal they scored or prevented.
You are LUCKY because an entire aspect of this wonderful game escapes your attention but you yet feel to be as confident as possible to state something being a general rule, that's simply something you failed to observe...

I get what you mean, but it doesn't seem very logical to me, because you can say the same for everything. Every twist and turn, dribble pertains luck.

You can basically say that football itself is a game of luck and chance.

I've played football myself here in Norway for a certain team, although not more than at Juvenil level(U19), and haven't come across something like that. It might however be a thought shared by your contemporaries.

Goalkeepers are taking a chance when they try to cover the angle like that or make a decision, but they have to take a chance, when to rush out, whether to stay on the line, because if they don't, they're toast. I wouldn't say their decision based on the situation, and the save that occurs because of it is because of luck alone. There's skill involved there too. It's an art itself in goalkeeping, to know what to do in certain situations.
 
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Aryagorn

Improvin' Perfection!!
Of course there's a bit of luck involved in a goal keeper's life, so does in an attacker's (twist and turn, dribble, etc do pertain luck as mentioned by [MENTION=15376]DonAK[/MENTION])..... But it does more in a goal keeper's life!


There's a reason why you always find people expressing surprise when some body chooses to pursue career as a keeper. Because that is the position that requires the most of luck factor and least of the skill factor!
 

Potroh

New member
I get what you mean, but it doesn't seem very logical to me, because you can say the same for everything. Every twist and turn, dribble pertains luck.
You can basically say that football itself is a game of luck and chance.

Don't turn my words upside down please. I've never said the "luck factor" dominated this game. I only talked about a bit of luck needed.

Logic and luck? You could name the luck as being the scientific significance factor, but may also call it the random factor of the game.

If Joe plays lottery with one ticket, where he has to mark 5 numbers out of 90, he will always need to fill up 45 million tickets to surely win.
That is algebra of probability, but at the same time we talk about luck in this case.
How lucky he has to be to spot the 5 numbers WITHOUT filling 45 million tickets? Very, very lucky, so his luck factor is 1:45 000 000 Does it happen in actual life? Yes it does, rarely very rarely but it does...

Ter Stegen's last "double save" is a good example (see above). The attacker clearly moves toward the goal, the GK comes out but does actually nothing and the attacker hits his stomach. The ball bounces back to the same attacker, who dribbles, turns around and shoots again. The second time Ter Stegen saves with a conscious and wonderful save.
The first time he was sort of lucky, but the second save was hilarious.
 
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mark1nhu

New member
Regarding the "luck" debate, I agree it's not some random circumstance that gives way to the save... I think the GK forges that "luck" in the same way a good poker player does, analyzing the situation and knowing when to commit or when to fold, so the GK is supposed to make odds favor him, be it by anticipation, reflexes, positioning, etc, so that "luck" is a skill by itself that can be trained and improved...

In this particular case, ter Stegen had a winning hand and he played it well, so credit must go to him for the saves, he did everything he had to do in order to stop the shots...

EDIT: catalicuntz stole my joke...

Fuck, this is a great analogy. I do play poker and I never thought about saying what you said. I envy you.
 
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El Flaco

Active member
Few hours ago, Ter Stegen had a Facebook live Q&A session which took 42 minutes.

Here's some few of his quotes in that Q&A session.

[tw]834789391411331072[/tw]

[tw]834792250609647620[/tw]

[tw]834810679576104966[/tw]

[tw]834810940579258368[/tw]

[tw]834811336639053825[/tw]
 

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