LL's Experiences in Argentina

Gonna be a while until I start writing about Barcelona again as I'm in Argentina at the moment.

Beautiful country with great people. Figured we needed a thread on it, given the popularity of and interest in our Argentine players.

Argentina


Buenos Aires - Good Winds
Buenos Aires is a very different kind of big city when you compare it to European cities. The city is rife with a mix of Roman-esque, Greek, Gothic and Colonial architecture although the immersion and beauty is often abruptedly ruined by the evident urban decay and the huge slums on the outskirts. After a while it gets a big exhausting looking at a majestic opera theater or government buildings with greek inspired facades and right next to it is a grey concrete building looking like it had been neglected for over 30 years, with no window frames (or even windows) and with 20 some antennas stuffed on the roof. These kind of buildings look like big grey milk cartons but with flat roofs. A six story building even collapsed on the day I arrived, a few feet from my hotel. Don't know the whole story behind it, think it was the foundation... but it's a pretty big deal and on all the news channels. Aside from this, the city really has it's own kind of charm. Avernida del Libertador cuts through the northern neighbourhood of Palermo. I believe it is actually the widest road in the whole world. It takes around 5 minutes to cross and you're bound to wait for the green light at least once. Lots of gnarled trees line the avenue, many of which I was completely oblivious to when it came to the type of tree. In the middle of it is a huge obelisk. I didn't get what it commemorates but it's probably important.

It has to be said that Argentina is probably the country furthest from my imagination. I had no idea how it looked, in terms of climate or natural enviroment until I got here. And even then, how I pictured the country was put to shame.

Anyway, one thing that stands out in Buenos Aires (and the rest of Argentina) is how much the people here love the color blue and skyblue. The Argentinian flag is everywhere. You can sense that the patriotism might even be at the same height as that which is found in the US. Throughout the whole city, there's at least something blue, whether it's giant billboards, neonlights, windows or even the color of the buildings themselves. On my way from the airport I noticed that the slums had a lot of grafiti: Almost all of it in blue and yellow, dedicated to Boca Juniors. People here really love football. What a surprise. Most of the people I actually talked to were upper class. It seems that River Plate (notorious rivals of Boca Juniors) is very popular amongst these people. Too bad they got relegated.

The following days after my arrival I visited the main street, full of street muscicians and what not. Even got myself an authentic Argentinian jersey. I even went on a little trip up the Tigre river. Stuff I didn't actually get to visit but only saw from the bus include the huge metallic flower thing (an absolutely massive metal colored flower which opens and closes morning and night through some mechanical marvel, almost at the speed of a real flower... really really slow.) and the Japanese gardens. There was also a park which I was told was over twice the size of Barcelona city. That's one big park. On sunny days the Argentinians love to slumber, sunbathe or play around in parks so it was a joy to see.

Besides this I managed to visit the La Boca neighborhood but not the stadium for some obscure reason (La Bombonera, "the cookie jar"). A very interesting part of Buenos Aires, Boca has lots of small colorful houses and buildings, all painted in pink, blue, yellow and all the brightest colors imaginable. It's a place full of art and a haven for tourists and tourist traps alike. On balconies and staircases are funny caricatures and figures (all of which look like they are made of paper-mache but probably not) of Evita Perón and our very own and beloved Diego Maradona. I found some cool street art of him which I will post later. Besides this, Boca is full of small shops, bars and restaurants, basketball/football courts, paintings, plaques and grafiti. If anyone has visited my native Denmark and experienced Christiania (a small anarchist hippie neighborhood in Copenhagen where the sale of maurihuana is legally sold at stands out in the open, due the government's inability to reconquor it from the hippies and their vast hordes of supporters) they would definitely recognise several elements, including the colorful houses and radical leftist elements that seep through the street, like an invisible fog.

I also visited Plaza de Mayo where Casa Rosada, seat of the government, lies (the pink house, Argentinian equivalent to the White House). In the middle of the Plaza is the May Pyramid, a smaller obelisk (of which I guess there are a lot) honoring the 1810 May Revolution that led to Argentina's independence from Spain. Lots of other important governmental and historical buildings surround the Plaza but one that caught my interest in particular was The Cathedral of Buenos Aires. It looks nothing like your average Catholic cathedral. Rather the exterior looks like an exact copy of an ancient Greek Temple. Inside however, it does look like a Catholic cathedral.

I've never been much of a believer. Maybe I believed a bit when I was a kid or maybe I just needed someone to blame for bad things and who better to take that blame than the man in the sky? I don't know if my lack of faith can be blamed on the horribly boring churches back home, the general consensus amongst Danish people that being Christian is little better than believing in fairy tales or the strictly scientific upbringing my dad gave me. Maybe it's a combination. Now that I'm older I'm starting to appreciate religion more and I tend to wave away the anti-religious people. Still, I don't get it and I fear I never will. At least not the spiritual aspects of it which I do believe genuinely help people in life and promotes generosity and kindness. The Catholic Church in particular has always caught my interest. Opposed to the old boring chalk churches we got in the Protestant north, Catholic churches are meant to inspire undoubted respect in the divine, submitting to God and accepting the insignificance of your life compared to the grandness of universal truth. Remembering my days of sitting on those old hard benches in my local church, I'm sure I would have paid a lot more interest if it had been designed with such glorious detail. But no, protestantism is purely spiritual and not for show I guess. If you were lucky, your local church had a painting on the bleak walls or the crucified Jesus had some color left in his cheeks.
Not like here. I could probably spend hours gazing up at the ceilling, the pillars, the gold, the red, the angels. A particular series of paintings peaked my interest, all hanging on the walls around the benches and the altar.
They depicted the suffering of Jesus in chronological order (the Passion I believe): Jesus gets sentenced. Jesus gets shown off to the public by Pontius Pilate. Jesus gets a cross. Jesus carries the cross. Jesus falls under the weight of the cross. Jesus carries the cross. Jesus falls under the cross. Jesus carries the cross again. Jesus falls under the cross again and gets spearéd in the side by a roman soldier. Jesus prays. Jesus gets nailed to the cross. Jesus dies. Jesus resurrected.
I don't know if it's a universal Catholic thing but I did stumble across the same sequence of paintings in a cathedral in the Flores neighbourhood. At least I think it was Flores, not sure.

Anyway, back to the Cathedral in Plaza de Mayo. I stumbled across a burial hall in the church, protected by two ceremonially dressed honorguards. Turned out that in the magnificent grave-monumental, full of angels, memorial plaques and draped in Argentinian flags, lay none other than José de San Martin. A great Argentina general throughout most of his career, master tactician, liberator of Chile, Argentina and Peru from the Spanish Empire and one of the great Libertadores of South America. If there is one thing I know about South Americans, more than their love of football, it's this: The Libertadores are the absolute heroes of the continent, revered almost anywhere in South America. The two greatest of these were San Martin and of course, Simon Bolivar. The Founding Fathers of the U.S you say? They aint got nothing on the Libertadores, at least not when it comes to public reverence.

After coming back out from the cathedral, I noticed a series of banners plastered across the gates of the Casa Rosada. I don't remember the exact words on them in Spanish, but in English most of it translates into "Mothers always here" and "Justice for the mothers". This is a reference to the widowed and childless mothers who protested here in silence and grief for years on end during the last dictatorship of Argentina. Like most South American countries, Argentina has seen its fair share of brutal military dictatorships. The last ones were the regimes of General Videla and later General Viola. Videla started the infamous Dirty War: A war against his political enemies, leftist and in general just unwanted people. His rule saw numerous executions, concentration camps and over 10.000 "disappearences". An Argentine girl I talked to even told me that her mother had to have bodyguards on her way to school in the 80'ies to prevent accidental kidnappings of inoccent non-aligned people like her.
Many of these were put on planes out over the Atlantic and shoved into the sea and a watery grave. Many of those who disappeared were the sons of the aforementioned mothers. It's still a controversial topic here as the mothers just wanted to know what happened to their sons. They never got the answers and even now almost 30 years later, they still haven't been told. I guess all the documents detailing the disappearances have been destroyed. Thankfully, those days are over but the painful memories persist. The mothers have stopped their march for justice but haven't got what they wanted.

That's Buenos Aires for you. Really a great city throughout and so much more than the grey concrete buildings that initially greet you. It is also a very comfortable city to walk around in. If you're European or American you might've heard some negative things about big cities in South America. Put those rumours to rest in the case of Buenos Aires. I felt very safe walking around in the city and never felt the slightest bit uncomfortable with my surroundings or the people on the streets. The only other big city I've been to on this continent was Sao Paolo in Brazil some years ago. Now that was sketchy, gotta say. A vast concrete labyrinth full of scary neighbourhoods you just didn't want to visit. The shopping malls even had to have over 50 armed guards there and even then you felt nervous walking around. Nothing like Buenos Aires though. Thankfully.

I'll update the thread with pictures in a couple of days and I'll write an update detailing cuisine, the people, culture and history of Argentina. I will also write about the region I am staying in at the moment: The idyllic and stunning scenery of Patagonia in southern Argentina. Oh and football. Of course I gotta discuss football.

Enter Nolan....

Will read this tomorrow when my eyes aren't bleeding.

Fourteen said:

Enter Nolan....

Will read this tomorrow when my eyes aren't bleeding.

Click to expand...

I know I'm predictable, I'm tired and semi-drunk (on Argentine wine of course) but I had to read this. Interesting point of view of the second most important city in the world for me, especially from your European point of view compared to my North American one.

Argentina is definitely the one place where the national flag is more prevalent than the US flag is in the United States. It's different though - in the US the flag is almost a religious symbol. It's revered in Argentina too, but it's as much about the style and standing out as it is nationalism. Argentina and the United States both can trace their flag obsession to their origins however. Both were European colonies that tries to create their own, immigrant identity, both are melting pots, so the flag represents a national identity without the thousands of years of history that European nationalism is built upon. This is a city of contradictions, when you are there long enough you realize just how insane the place is to its core, but that's why it is so beautiful.

Buenos Aires is hard to explain to those who never have been. For both North Americans and Latin Americans, the city is considered the most "European" city in the Americas, but it's clearly not Europe. The French, Italian and Spanish influences are obvious, but it definitely has a new world twist. It's also the product of being the capital of a country that was one of the richest in the world a century ago and is no longer even the richest in the region. Outside of the modern developments in Palermo and Puerto Madero, the city is slowly decaying, but in an attractive way. It's a bit like if Paris or Rome stopped developing in the 70s. But you go to Palermo, which if you haven't spent much time in I recommend you do, you are clearly in a modern city, very green, very trendy, but still with that Buenos Aires feel.

La Boca is a contradiction in itself. The caminito has a great history as a colorful working class cultural hotbed, but today it is a tourist trap. But around it is still a poor, rough neighborhood. The Riachuelo river nearby is the single most polluted body of water I have ever seen and smelled. You can see nearby villa miserias (slums) if you walk toward the highway. It's interesting but La Boca is not a place I'm in a rush to return to unless its to show friends (especially as a River fan). When I was back this summer I even told my friends who were there the first time and only had 3 days there to not bother unless you can rush a visit.

Regarding safety..I personally have always felt safe in Buenos Aires, I've walked around alone in the middle of the night with no problem, but I know plenty of people who were mugged. It's not a safe city by any means, but we aren't talking Rio, Mexico City or Caracas. It's more dangerous than Santiago or Montevideo, but that's because it's bigger and more fun.

Have you been to the San Telmo market yet? If so, if you are back in Buenos Aires on a sunday, go. This summer I had one of the best days of my life just drinking wine and people watching.

Not to sound cheesy, but just thinking about it while I finish off a bottle of malbec makes me tear up.

Nice read Furia. Do you live here or are you here on a longer trip? How long have you been here and where are you from originally? I'd love to know since its definitely a city I might consider coming back to in the future to live in for a year or two. It would also make a great contribution to the thread.

Anyway, funny that you should name Argentine wine because that brings me to another very important aspect of Argentina:

Cuisine
Meat.
Meat. Meat. Meat and yet more meat.
To say that Argentinians just love meat would be a gross understatement. Meat is immensely important in Argentine society and the people here are very proud of it. Due to its huge size, Argentina offers almost endless plains for herders to create a prosperous business. After having spent a week or so here I've come to the conclusion that if you want to really offend an Argentinian (don't know why you would but hey I'm just warning you) you would have to either criticise their meat or be a vegetarian (just kidding on the vegetarian part). Luckily I never did that as I'm pure carnivore and I love, love, love a juicy bloody steak. Just like the Argentinians. I had some delicious lamb last night, but besides that dinner has generally consisted a good rare steak every night (oh yeah I actually got some pretty good duck one night) and might I add, some of the best I've ever had. This usually comes with potatoes, mashed potatoes, various vegetables and redwine sauce.

It is said that Casa Rosada, the presidential palace, actually got it's unique rosa color because it was painted with cow blood. I don't know if it's true but it sure reflects the absolutely central role of meat in Argentine society.

The Argentinians are a people with a taste in food almost identical to mine and just like me they primarily want fish to stay in the ocean instead of on a platter. Don't get me wrong: I'll eat fish if it's there but if I can pick anything over fish, I generally will (unless if there's some extremely good salmon around). The Argentinians are similar. Fish is somewhat hard to find and even then its not popularly consumed. An Argentine woman I talked to actually said that good fish and seafood would have to be imported, most of it from Chile.

Now on to drinks. As Furia mentioned wine, let's start there: Argentina is famous for its wines. I've had good wine every night and even been to a wine tasting. It's very classy the stuff they got here and it'll get you drunk off the boot if you've been stuck with your nose in the glass almost every day like I have. Add several refills and I was zigzagging out of the restaurant afterwards with a blissfull smile on my face and with red cheeks. Del Fin Del Mundo is a particular brand of wine I've fallen in love with. It takes it's name from the southernmost point on any continent, fittingly named El Fin Del Mundo, (The End of the World) situated on the tip of Argentina. Doubt I'll ever go there but I'd imagine that if you've just about had enough of the rest of the world or if the Cosa Nostra was after you, this would be an ideal place to live out the remainder of your life.
Whatever you do though, don't mention Chilean wine as anything but inferior (even if it isn't). Argentinian winemakers don't even want to consider them a competitor. Doesn't matter. The white wine, red wine and champagne you get here are strokes of liquid genius. Most are made using French grapes but with a local twist. The red wine was great but one or two particular white wines stand out. One had a lovely fruity aftertaste that lingered for almost ten minutes.

Last of all, beer. Quilmas. I bet Furia is more than familiar with the brand. It's pretty decent beer but when you come from one of the beer capitals of the world (Carlsberg, I remain your faithful servant) it is hard not to be critical of any foreign beer (except of course legendary Belgian beer). Still, it's beer and I'm never one to snub the chance to get some corn juice. But if you want really good alcohol here then you gotta play it out like Furia and do it the classy way with some wine.

Argentine History and the Peróns
Argentina has been through some tumultuous times and history can be felt as much as it can be seen here. In Europe we've mostly stopped thinking about the past. Few people really care what this leader or this event meant to our countries.

The colonial influence on the country can be seen in architecture but more modern historical events have left more noticable marks on Argentina. I mentioned the Dirty War and Videla earlier but two even more important and perhaps controversial central persons in Argentina history were Juan and Eva "Evita" Perón. Lieutenant General Juan Perón came to power three years after he had aided in a military coup, named the Revolution of '43. Perón is a very interesting person and it's hard to see him in the same light as some Argentinians. The people here are somewhat evenly split between those who considered him to be a mean S.O.B and those who thought that he wasn't all bad. For a European or North American it is general knowledge that dictators are bad (although I do respect Deng Xiaopeng of China and Lee Yuan Kew of Singapore), so it's kinda odd to see paintings and statues honoring his memory. Of course most of these were found in the Evita Museum. Perón's rule saw a neutral foreign policy as he refused to take sides in the Cold War, helping the workers and the poor, building hospitals, schools and kindergardens, modernization and improving the economy. He was very active with workers unions but despite all these leftist traits he wasn't a communist and only worked to improve the social conditions of the workers under the military rule. All this helped him in promoting a kind of cult of personality, backed by a populist movement known as Perónism. Meanwhile he wasn't shy of removing his political enemies through force.
Perón was an odd fellow when it came to the Post-WW2 period. He greatly helped the Jewish community of Buenos Aires, so much so that Argentina has the highest Jewish population in South America (I've seen more synagogues here than I've seen in a life time). Yet he was oddly protective of Nazi war criminals whom he granted citizenship and refuge, also protecting them from extradition to Europe and later Israel. Infamous criminals protected include Klaus Barbie, a brutal SS repressor in occupied France and Adolf Eichmann, a central SS officer behind the Holocaust. While Barbie was recruited by the CIA, Eichmann was abducted by Mossad agents and brought to Israel where he was hanged. All against Perón's will of course. One particular notorious individual who managed to live out his life in grotesque peace in Argentina was Josef Mengele, The Angel of Death, whose numerous medical experiments on Jewish children and Soviet POVs is the stuff of nightmares.

Enter Eva Perón, affectionately nicknamed Evita (Little Eva) by the poor. It is a commonly debated subject how much she actually managed to influence her husband's policies. Some thinks she actually ruled the country as an equal to him, others that she was merely a kind face used by Perón to achieve his goals. Whatever she did, she was important.
Previously known as Eva Duarte, she lived with Perón for many years until the 9th October 1945 changed everything. Perón, yet to archieve Presidency (not until ´46) was imprisoned by political rivals. Eva was almost instrumental in pressing for his release and organised a four day protest that eventually let to Perón being released from prison. They married shortly after (Juan Perón's second marriage).

Eva led the Eva Perón Foundation, a foundation aimed at charity and aiding the poor. It is no wonder that she achieved great popularity amongst the poor. To top it all off she also had celebrity status as she had been an actress (albeit a minor one) before she met Perón. When she became Juan's wife, her old movies skyrocketed in popularity and she was considered a fashion idol, sex symbol, helper of the poor and an almost flawless human being. Amongst the poor. I talked to a 90 something year old Argentinian man named Enrique (poor sod had alzheimers but was one of the kindest human beings I ever met, always smiling and grabbing my arm to tell me the same thing over and over again). According to Enrique "she wasn't my cup of tea". Maybe it's because she took what she wanted for herself and for the people rather than paying for it. Toys were taken from toy stores and given to kids but the toymakers suffered. Same goes for clothiers. Despite the significant poverty she also had no qualms walking around in fancy dresses and expensive shoes from the U.S.

Anyway, if you thought Evita was popular back then it was nothing compared to when she died 26th July 1952 at the age of 33. The funeral can best be compared to that of Princess Diana, thousands if not millions of people lining the streets and mourning her passing. You could say she archieved martyrdom following her death as she "died for her cause". Since then she has become a popular icon in Argentina, comparable to Che Guevara, though with a more positive twist. The Evita Museum I visited was full of furniture, photographs, videos of mass rallies and personal affects. Throughout the whole museum tour I still couldn't quite understand the whole ordeal but I guess Eva Perón's popular image is a combination of many things.

Juan Perón would go on to serve 3 more years before being toppled in a coup and sent into exile. He later returned in 1973 and served as president for a year until his death.

History shapes society and war does this even more radically. The Falkland War has been mentioned a few times while I've been here. To an outsider it's a pointless war, fought on the basis of principle. Basically, the Falkland Islands are a cluster of islands situated out from Argentina's coast. Since colonial days it has been, and still is, a dominion of the United Kingdom. Population wise the islanders are British but geographically it is considered part of Argentina (at least among the Argentinians). So during the military junta in 1982 (led in part by Admiral Jorge Anaya), Argentina decided to invade and occupy the Falkland and South Sandwich islands. British retaliation wasn't expected. At least not in Argentina. The British and Margret Thatcher did however intervene and with a superior navy, the British claimed victory two and a half months later. Almost 300 Brits died compared to some 900 Argentinians. The war led to the end of military rule in Argentina and the establishment of democracy. Still, the Argentinians carry a grudge against the British and diplomatic relations remain somewhat cold.
It's sad a thing though since Argentina has been influenced immensely by the British throughout it's history. The British build the railways and several buildings in Buenos Aires (one particular clock tower by the harbor was gifted to Buenos Aires by the British even. It looks like a mini Big Ben), brought sports and popular culture. The British influence is at least as noticable as that of the Spanish and Italians.

An important event that needs to be mentioned but briefly was the Argentinian Economic Crisis of 1999-2002. The roots of the crisis can be traced all way back to previous military dictatorships almost 20 years earlier. The event practically resulted in the total state bankruptcy of Argentina and one watched with nervous interest by economic observers the world over. I don't think an all out collapse of a western nation's economy had been observed before so no one knew what to expect but the worst. Argentina suffered catastrophically, with povery rising to swallow about 55% of the population. Remarkably Argentina managed to recover without the apparent anarchy usually associated with bankruptcy but the economy is still lingering today.

As Furia mentioned, Argentina is probably one of the big melting pots of the Americas. It has evolved from a Spanish colony to a country of immigrants and it is very noticable. However, unlike the U.S. where you will still find rigid boundaries between the different ethnic groups, Argentina's population has been fused more closely together and as a result has created a very unique culture in itself.

The People of Argentina
Ethnically, the vast majority of Argentines (almost some 95%) descend from European settlers and later European immigrants from the late 1800's to the middle of the 1900's. The original settlers were Spanish and most of those were from Galicia. Pretty much all of the Argentines who can trace their ancestry back to the colonial days will find something Galician in their past. Basques and Andalusians are also well represented but all these peoples from Iberia have more or less melted together so few if any feel even remotely Basque or Galician.

Besides the Spanish, the second most important group are the Italians. Argentina is famous for being the country in the world with the third biggest population of Italians, after Italy itself and the U. S.
Several million Italians immigrated to Argentina in the early 1900's and today Argentina Italians make up roughly 45% (20 million) of the population, almost as much, if not more, than the Spanish.
This can definitely be felt as many Argentines have Italian last names and many are very proud of their Italian heritage. It is also reflected in numerous Italian restaurants. One of the most interesting things to notice is the lasting effects the Italian immigrants have left on the Spanish spoken in Argentina. One could say it's almost like listening to Spanish being spoken with an Italian accent. Words get dragged out, sentences sounds more like singing and have the vocal ups and downs of Italian. The Spanish "vale" (meaning "okay" and actually pronounced more like bale) becomes "vaaalee".

While Spanish-Spanish could sound a bit like a machine gun, with no pauses to breathe, Argentinian Spanish is almost twice as slow, with more singing and the sentences are sort of drifting away at the end while relieving pressure on the endings of the words. The letter Ll (two L's that are actualy one letter in the Spanish alphabet and pronounced as J would be in most non-Latin languages, unless it's in Catalonia where I live in which case it's pronounced more like "lj") is pronounced very differently. "Calle", meaning road in Spanish, is pronounced "Ca'je" in Spanish, "Cal'je" in Catalan Spanish but is pronounced "Ca'she" in Argentinian. Llave (a key), pronounced "Ja'be" in Spanish, becomes "sha'be" and so on.
Other differences between Spanish and Argentine Spanish include when Argentinians say "este/estes" (roughly translated but no correctly into "is he/are you" in English) instead of "esta"/estas" and they say "vos" instead of "tu" (you).

The third biggest group are the Germans. You'd be surprised how many times you stumble across German words, locations, shops, restaurants and lastnames here. The current President of Argentina, Christina Kirchner was married to the late former president Nestor Kirchner who was of German ancestry.
While the Germans weren't as many as the Italians and Spanish, they were a big enough group to persist into todays society along with their culture.

Most other immigrants from Europe (Scandinavians, Dutch, Poles and Russians etc.) did not number as many as the Germans or Italians and as such many of their names and much of their culture didn't take roots in Argentina. Although I've been told that there is a sizable Danish community in Argentina, most of what's left are last names. I came across a gas station one day that said "Christensen". I guess the owner/founder of that particular gas station could be of Danish descent. We'll never know.

Considering the colonial background of Argentina it is quite odd that it has an almost non-existant African population. Back in colonial days, Africans made up roughly 50% of the population. Today it is even unknown how many still remain and most of the Africans you'll meet come from other South American countries like Brazil, Ecuador or Colombia. Some theories go that most of the Argentine-African male population were used in the army during the war of independence and were quickly wiped out. Others suggest that most fled north to Brazil. Whatever the case I see more Africans strolling around in Copenhagen than I do here.

The native american population however, still exist in Argentina but it has greatly diminished throughout history. Unlike Peru, Bolivia and Paraguay where they make up a significant part of the population, or Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador where they have mixed with Europeans to create a majority of Mestizos, Argentina have very few. Only around 4-5% of the population self identify as Native American. On the other hand, most Argentinians have at least one native american forefather but there is no doubt that European genes take precedence in most Argentinians.
Many can be seen on the streets of Buenos Aires but actually where I've seen the most is in Patagonia where I am now as I write this. Here there's a quite clear difference and they stand out far more, with native tribal colors hanging outside houses and people looking a lot more indigenous in general. The most numerous in Patagonia are the Mapuche, Guarani and Tehuelche.
I managed to talk to an Argentine girl back in Buenos Aires and asked her about the indigenous population of Argentina. Her response was "we killed them all". Not really correct or maybe she thought I was asking about the original population in the area around Buenos Aires. It made me think back to when I discussed the exact same thing with a friend from Ecuador. I was also given a similar answer of "we raped and killed them all". Dunno why I always hear this or why I need to hear this but it seems to be achknowledged at least among some South Americans. Probably the vast majority of the native population suffered a fate like the ones mentioned but even more died of European diseases and civil war prior to the arrival of the Conquistadors. The remaining population in South America are shadowy descendants of peoples who were almost wiped out and have suffered much for many years. Even today indigenous rights are something to be pondered in many South American countries.

I mentioned Uruguayans to some of the Argentines I met. Most tend to agree that they are similar if not identical to Argentinians in ethnic and societal composition. In general though it is agreed that Uruguayans are more "quiet". Don't know what is meant by that but I was also told that during winter and fall, Uruguay was a very boring place to visit but come summer it was absolutely full to the brim with life. Why? Because all the Argentines goes there to spend their summer holidays of course.

General traits of the Argentine people are their openness, kindness and warmth. Usually you have to give a good few kisses on the cheeks (something I'm not used to and so creates some awkward situations). Most smile to you and want to know how you find their country (and if you like their meat). They're also very helpful when I had to speak in broken Spanish.
It's not uncommon to talk to someone on the street only to have a random Argentine stranger come up and participate in the conversation, giving his/her view on things. They usually do that with a kind smile so it is hard to get annoyed at it (something people at home probably would). My dad used to tell how he visited Argentina back after democracy was reinstated. Apparently hundreds of Argentines stood in groups on the streets of Buenos Aires and discussed. Why? Because they had never been allowed to discuss up until that point. Dunno if it's true but it may give you an idea why many like to join in on conversations at random.

Tango
Meat. Tango. Football. Wine.
Those are probably the main ingredients in the stew you could call Argentine Culture. Meat and wine I have already discussed. So now lets talk tango.
Tango is what you could rightly call the national dance of Argentina (and Uruguay). It originated in it's current form in Argentina as a dance popular amongst the lower classes. It could descend from regional Spanish dances (like flamenco) or African dances. Whatever the case, its an Argentinian dance now and it is no longer considered a dance for the lower classes. Rather it is considered a gentleman's dance that oozes of class and sexual flirtation. I went to watch a tango show when I was in Buenos Aires. I've never been much for dances or dancing in general (although that brazilian martial art dance is pretty cool if you play Eddie in Tekken) so watching this tango show was the first full showing of dancing I had to sit through.
Its danced in in pairs with men and women. The men are usually dressed like Bogart, Sinatra or other 1950's New York wiseguys. Sometimes they also wear those purple silk shirts (I've got to get me one of those and with my chesthair poking out I'd be a bomb) and tight black pants with shiny shoes. The women dress mostly in long dresses with highly sexual undertones and stockings. Cleavages are also encouraged and some feathers as well... oh and high heeled shoes! Yep it looks a bit like something out of an old bordello.
The man usually leads the dance, sticking so close to his woman that they've practically become one being at times. It's highly sensual and arousing to the participants I'd imagine since it requires very intimate body contact. Sometimes the caballero will press his lips against the senioritas head, other times he'll grab her boobs as he flings her around and sometimes he'll lift up in her skirt a bit.
That's the upper part of the body during the dance but where the interesting stuff happens is down in the lower end. To me, tango practically looks like a kind of foot flirting. It's all about stepping around and placing your feet in awkward positions and tying knots on eachothers legs before untying them in miraculous fashion, all while flinging your feet backwards occasionally in an almost contemptous move. The woman often kicks up between the mans leg when they're spread. Sometimes you gotta wonder if instead of stopping a few cm from his crotch she actually manages to hit home. If that happens what then? Will he (like any normal self-respecting man) collapse on the floor, holding his crotch with tears out of his eyes or will he just continue dancing? It's a tough dance gotta say.
Usually intermissions include some lady singer or the orchestra going nuts. The orchestra (at least the one I saw) was made up of guitar, cello, piano, violin and accordion. The accordion had an almost central role in the show that I watched, being the only instrument to have a solo and three of them might I add. It fitted pretty well to the dancing I thought. The music constantly balanced on a knife's edge between hectic and jolly, an odd combination that does fit tango quite well as its about sexual tension, love and playing hard to get.

This thread brings a tear to my eye and makes me regret so much the path my life has taken away from home..

I spent a winter in Buenos Aires to improve my Spanish a few years ago. I've been back since and I still remember the city perfectly, only Montreal and New York I know better. I am dying to see more of the country, I've only been to Buenos Aires and Mendoza.

I've also studied Argentina in great detail, it was the focus of the second half of my undergrad studies.

And you are correct about the 2002 collapse still noticeable everywhere. This is a country where you can see the history of the past two centuries in every facade of life.

La Furia said:

I spent a winter in Buenos Aires to improve my Spanish a few years ago. I've been back since and I still remember the city perfectly, only Montreal and New York I know better. I am dying to see more of the country, I've only been to Buenos Aires and Mendoza.

I've also studied Argentina in great detail, it was the focus of the second half of my undergrad studies.

And you are correct about the 2002 collapse still noticeable everywhere. This is a country where you can see the history of the past two centuries in every facade of life.

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From what I remember the inflation is still very high, can you confirm that Nolan?

I really like Argentina but mostly the landscapes and the cuisine. Being from Europe I am not that impressed by a few colonial and French/Italian/Spanish inspired buildings.

And after all I am living in Paris right now.

LoveLaudrup:

You have surely thought about it but I can highly recommned a trip to Montevideo if you are based in Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata (about 400 km south of the capital) especially now when the weather is good.

And you need to try Asado.

Well considering Buenos Aires was basically built to look like Paris, I get what you are talking about. I find it unique though, because there's definitely difference between the wannabe Europe avenues built when the country was rich, and the newer stuff that's more Latin American. Recoleta for instance has very nice architecture, but it's still a Paris ripoff. At least they have the widest avenue in the world though!

And yes, the inflation is atrocious. The economy has a lot going for it - poverty is nowhere near as bad as it was in 2002, social indicators have recovered, jobs are being created, wages are increasing and the country has reindustrialized after a lot of was closed down in the 90s, but the inflation is among the worst in the world. As of right now I think it's the lesser of evils compared to the fake economy of the late 90s, but I know a lot of middle class Argentines and ex-pats who have been hurt greatly by the inflation. I mean hell, even living there for a few months I saw price increases.

DucdeOrléans said:

LoveLaudrup:

You have surely thought about it but I can highly recommned a trip to Montevideo if you are based in Buenos Aires and Mar del Plata (about 400 km south of the capital) especially now when the weather is good.

And you need to try Asado.

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Doubt I'll get the chance to. Only got some three days left here and two of them I'll be spending in Patagonia.

I really want to update this thread with lots of pictures since it looks like an eyesore of text. That's gonna have to wait until I get back home and upload my pictures and if they don't work I'll find something on the net.

Montevideo is a bit difficult for a day trip but Colonia (there's a 1 hour express ferry) a Uruguayan colonial city on the coast is a good way to spend a day.

La Furia said:

Montevideo is a bit difficult for a day trip but Colonia (there's a 1 hour express ferry) a Uruguayan colonial city on the coast is a good way to spend a day.

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That's gonna be tough, I was thinking more I'd visit that huge flower or the Jap gardens. Also got a very important lunch with some Argentines on the last day in Buenos Aires.

LoveLaudrup said:

Doubt I'll get the chance to. Only got some three days left here and two of them I'll be spending in Patagonia.

I really want to update this thread with lots of pictures since it looks like an eyesore of text. That's gonna have to wait until I get back home and upload my pictures and if they don't work I'll find something on the net.

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Ah, that's a pity.

Returning to BCN afterwards or Denmark(?).

Apart from that, man you can write some novels (this is meant in a positive way).

La Furia:

Oddly I did not know that (that it was modelled after Paris). I was told that the boulevards were an inspiration but otherwise not much.

Yeah, I know what you are talking about. Much of the same can be said about cities such as Mexico City (the central parts) and Havana.

Yeah, it is enormous.

But what I like about Argentina is mostly the landscapes, the cuisine and the people who are very friendly and very approachable. And the accent is just, brilliant.

Thanks for the update Nolan. Well, not much has changed since my visit then (summer of 2008). But I heard not long ago that it is getting better (although slowly) and that they are looking towards Brazil who really are a booming economy.

Sports in Argentina
Almost all popular sports in Argentina were brought from the UK by British railway workers who spend many years here back in the 1800's. Popular sports include: Football (of course), rugby, polo, cricket and horse racing, almost all originating in Britain. The national sport of Argentina however is Pato, a team sport where you throw a ball with handles to your team mates while trying to throw it through a fishnet goal, all on horseback of course. Rugby is played more as an upper class sport and there are many rugby clubs and colleges in Buenos Aires. There are billboards of the national team ahead of some upcoming international rugby event that I can't remember the name of (sorry I don't follow rugby anymore, not since back when I played it myself in 2009). Horse racing and betting on it is also very popular.

And now football. Football is by far the most popular sport in Argentina. The epic rivalry between River Plate and Boca Juniors has fittingly been named El Superclasico. It is one of the most insane, intense and wild rivalries in football today. Some even think it rivals or outmatches El Clasico in sheer scope and importance. Don't about the quality of the football but when it comes to fan support, they might be right. The atmosphere on La Boca and El Monumental (home of River Plate and the Argentine National Team) when the hated rival is visiting is legendary so much so that us Europeans might have to bow our heads (reluctantly of course. Superior football outside of Europe? Preposterous!). The Argentine league is also one of the best in South America and Boca Juniors is the overall best Argentine team on the continent I think. The Boca Juniors carry the colors blue and yellow, River Plate red and white. The rivalry is so great that back when Coca Cola decided to sponsor La Boca stadium, they had to change the background color of the Coca Cola logo. No way anyone at Boca, not the board or the fans, wanted the red and white colors of their rivals anywhere near their stadium.
Besides these two giants I believe many of you are familiar with Rosario Central and Newell's Old Boys. Newell's Old Boys has mostly been put on the map because of Messi, once a youth player at Newell's. The Argentines I talked to were quick to tell me that they were nobodies and a mediocre team.

The Argentine National Team is a whole other matter that all Argentines can get behind. Having won the World Cup twice, La Albiceleste (the sky-blues) are one of the most succesfull national teams in world and it is one of my favorite national teams along with Denmark and Spain. Sadly we all know the horrible times that this team is going through but expectations remain sky high. Maradona is not on the field anymore and so people are looking for his successor. While there are mixed opinions of Maradona and his private life, there is no doubt that he is the greatest player to ever play the game both amongst the Argentines and myself.

Messi
Messi has to stand in the shadow of a god and even emulate him. People on these forums often ask why he is treated so harshly for Argentina and I decided I'd had just about enough of it myself so I asked one of the Argentinians I was with one day.
She said that compared to Maradona, Messi wasn't considered nowhere near as Argentinian. While Maradona played for many years in Argentina and even made his name there before moving on to Europe, Messi is more a product of La Masia and european football. People over here followed Messi secondhand in Europe but Maradona was right in front of their noses and so they got to follow him closely. Messi won the hearts of cules but not the Argentinians. His reputation was cemented in Europe but he was never considered as purely Argentinian as Maradona. Having lived in Europe since he was 11, he's considered more of a "foreign" Argentinian you could say.
So the Argentines judgement of Messi seems to stem from the lingering magic of Maradona and Messi's european smell.
Let's just hope he gets up there. The lad still has 3 more years until the next world cup when he will be 27. Maradona won his World Cup at age 26 and I don't think he shined as brightly up until that point either. My own opinion is that Messi needs to mature a bit more, become far more vocal and bossy, and to get a more physical edge in the game to fully reach the level where he can lead a team like Argentina to victory.

DucdeOrléans said:

Thanks for the update Nolan. Well, not much has changed since my visit then (summer of 2008). But I heard not long ago that it is getting better (although slowly) and that they are looking towards Brazil who really are a booming economy.

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It's gotten better, definitely. I've been there in 08 and this year, the economic situation has definitely improved but much of the same issues exist. Unfortunately one difference for visitors is it's definitely a lot more expensive than it was 3 years ago. Still cheaper than Chile or Brazil though.