Alejandro Grimaldo

serghei said:

Rakitic was and is still defensively better than Kroos

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No i disagree. Kroos tackles more, intercepts more, makes less fouls per game (based on whoscored stats), and that's with Casemiro in the team
And he is able to complete 90 minutes without running out of gas like Rakitic
Just because Rakitic is better defensively than our other midfielders that doesn't mean he is the best in the world at that.



But he wasn't doing that in Sevilla, why would we buy a player to give us effort if we don't see that effort in his team. In Sevilla he had M'Bia and some other guy doing the dirty work behind him while Rakitic would play with the strikers

Kroos wouldn't have been able to do that? The guy played DM in his first season at Madrid and did well, an automatic starter for them throughout

So what?
I could argue Kroos was better defensively for Bayern than Rakitic was for Sevilla. Got any proof otherwise

JamDav1982 said:

He had to trade off and give more focus to MSN as midfield was not good enough to support them and be strong defensively.

Dont agree that he chose a player like Rakitic to be a minder for MSN and Alves I think he misjudged Rakitic ability and had to go that way.

Lucho made massive changes in second half of season so it seems unlikely that is what he planned to do from start.

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He may have misjudged Rakitic's playmaking ability, but imo he still chose Rakitic because of the true idea (imo) that Rakitic is superior to Kroos when it comes to defending. And in his first season and part of his 2nd Rakitic was good because he was surrounded by 2 players with great passing ability (Alvessi). Now, Messi has moved from there, Alves is gone, and he is asked to do the role of a playmaker more than he was in his first 2 seasons. And when it's about playmaking, and passing, and operating with the ball in tight spaces, he's not Barca material.

serghei said:

He may have misjudged Rakitic's playmaking ability, but imo he still chose Rakitic because of the true idea (imo) that Rakitic is superior to Kroos when it comes to defending. And in his first season and part of his 2nd Rakitic was good because he was surrounded by 2 players with great passing ability (Alvessi). Now, Messi has moved from there, Alves is gone, and he is asked to do the role of a playmaker. And when it's about playmaking, and passing, and operating with the ball in tight spaces, he's not Barca material.

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Rakitic just came off a couple seasons as an AM getting goals and assists and didnt wasnt there as a defensive presence as much at first so dont agree that is why Lucho bought him.

As said before Kroos is closer to Xavi and both of them help defensively as keep the ball better.

At what level had Rakitic ever shown to be a Barca class defensive midfielder for Lucho to think that?

JamDav1982 said:

Rakitic is better defensively than Xavi was probably even if Raki is not as strong defensively as people make out.

With players like Kroos or Xavi you keep the ball away from opposition as form of defence anyway so dont need them being 'work horses' when defending.

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Yes, but in this case, some elements that Lucho did not include in his tactics should have been present. Like pressing, crowding the area where the ball is played etc. Lucho's tactics are different, and more conventional.

serghei said:

He may have misjudged Rakitic's playmaking ability, but imo he still chose Rakitic because of the true idea (imo) that Rakitic is superior to Kroos when it comes to defending. And in his first season and part of his 2nd Rakitic was good because he was surrounded by 2 players with great passing ability (Alvessi). Now, Messi has moved from there, Alves is gone, and he is asked to do the role of a playmaker more than he was in his first 2 seasons. And when it's about playmaking, and passing, and operating with the ball in tight spaces, he's not Barca material.

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Rakitic was never superior to Kroos defensively

Statistically nor otherwise

JamDav1982 said:

At what level had Rakitic ever shown to be a Barca class defensive midfielder for Lucho to think that?

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He is not a defensive midfielder. But a midfielder with better workrate, better off the ball game, than Kroos. Kroos is superior on the ball in every way to Rakitic. But Rakitic is also superior in workrate and in defensive aspects.

As I said, you'll never ever see Kroos playing as a part time RB like Rakitic did when Alves was caught too advanced, and wasn't able to defend in those moments. Rakitic has good workrate, and is a disciplined player. His downsides appear evident when he is asked to create.

Just because he was a AM in Sevilla, doesn't mean that's what we got him for. He still showed some AM qualities (scoring in some top games), even though his role was mostly on the defensive side, covering for Alves, who played more like a playmaker on the right, than as clasic RB.

They are different players, and I think we chose Rakitic because we needed his profile more than Kroos' at that moment. Not because we tought Rakitic is superior to Kroos at being a playmaker. That being said, we should have signed both.

Madrid managed to get such a top squad because they convinced many top players to come regardless of competition. This is what we needed to do as well. You never tell your targets that they will be substitutes. I don't think a team like Madrid said to Kroos that he will be a starter no matter what. I think they wanted him, and they got him. And had we competed with them, you never know where he would've ended up.

serghei said:

He is not a defensive midfielder. But a midfielder with better workrate, better off the ball game, than Kroos. Kroos is superior on the ball in every way to Rakitic. But Rakitic is also superior in workrate and in defensive aspects.

As I said, you'll never ever see Kroos playing as a part time RB like Rakitic did when Alves was caught too advanced, and wasn't able to defend in those moments. Rakitic has good workrate, and is a disciplined player. His downsides appear evident when he is asked to create.

Just because he was a AM in Sevilla, doesn't mean that's what we got him for.

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All those things you point to about Rakitic covering RB and Messi was down to those players having to do more in final third as midfield couldnt support them.

Alves was the one who played in tight areas better than the midfield so had to be given that license to go forward.

Better midfield who could dominate the ball more and you dont need Alves doing the on the ball work midfielders like Raki should have the ability to do.

JamDav1982 said:

Lucho never really had MSN playing on the break until the second half of that season. It was then that he more or less gave up playing through midfield and just made it about getting ball to MSN as soon as possible.

It only really started to click after he began bypassing the midfield as it wasnt good enough to support the front three properly.

Barca won with MSN despite a below standard midfield not because of them.

Kroos all day would have been perfect for the midfield.

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I totally disagree, our midfield has played on MSN strength and bailed them out as much as they bailed us out, Rakitic has covered a lot of Messi lack of effort and Alves going forward too much,Iniesta provided a lot of creativity in midfield. Adding Kroos in 2014 wouldn't have worked in such "very successful" set up we had. Kroos himself started to become really successful in RM midfield with a DM like Casamiero, put him with Iniesta,Busquets & MSN and the midfield is more of liability. There is nothing wrong in playing in team strength.

Signing Rakitic over Kroos was never a mistake,the mistake wasn't keep working on the team and making later wrong signings.
Iniesta has declined,Messi lack of effort became even more evident and he himself moved to AM,Alves left (and even during 2nd half of last season age cought him) and we were totally exposed in many aspects. We had Rakitic & Busquets to cover for MSN,declined Iniesta and lack of RB.Why? because we thought Roberto is good RB,Gomes is gr8 CM and Denis is good AM to rest Iniesta,while Arda is good midfielder. Those was latter mistakes,not 2014 mistake.
Back then we have done the right thing, moving on finally from the Pep hangover we had and changing the philosophy of the team,playing on the strength of what we have,but like any play it won't work if you stopped doing the right things.

serghei said:

He is not a defensive midfielder. But a midfielder with better workrate, better off the ball game, than Kroos. Kroos is superior on the ball in every way to Rakitic. But Rakitic is also superior in workrate and in defensive aspects.

As I said, you'll never ever see Kroos playing as a part time RB like Rakitic did when Alves was caught too advanced, and wasn't able to defend in those moments. Rakitic has good workrate, and is a disciplined player. His downsides appear evident when he is asked to create.

Just because he was a AM in Sevilla, doesn't mean that's what we got him for. He still showed some AM qualities (scoring in some top games), even though his role was mostly on the defensive side, covering for Alves, who played more like a playmaker on the right, than as clasic RB.

They are different players, and I think we chosed Rakitic because we needed his profile more than Kroos' at that moment. Not because we tought Rakitic is superior to Kroos at being a playmaker. That being said, we should have signed both.

Madrid managed to get such a top squad because they convinced many top players to come regardless of competition. This is what we needed to do as well. Maybe during the season things changed, but you never tell your targets that they will be substitutes.

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Kroos runs more distance per game, tackles more, intercepts more, makes less fouls and somehow Rakitic has higher workrate and defensive ability

khaled_a_d said:

I totally disagree, our midfield has played on MSN strength and bailed them out as much as they bailed us out, Rakitic has covered a lot of Messi lack of effort and Alves going forward too much,Iniesta provided a lot of creativity in midfield. Adding Kroos in 2014 wouldn't have worked in such "very successful" set up we had. Kroos himself started to become really successful in RM midfield with a DM like Casamiero, put him with Iniesta,Busquets & MSN and the midfield is more of liability. There is nothing wrong in playing in team strength.

Signing Rakitic over Kroos was never a mistake,the mistake wasn't keep working on the team and making later wrong signings.
Iniesta has declined,Messi lack of effort became even more evident and he himself moved to AM,Alves left (and even during 2nd half of last season age cought him) and we were totally exposed in many aspects. We had Rakitic & Busquets to cover for MSN,declined Iniesta and lack of RB.Why? because we thought Roberto is good RB,Gomes is gr8 CM and Denis is good AM to rest Iniesta,while Arda is good midfielder. Those was latter mistakes,not 2014 mistake.
Back then we have done the right thing, moving on finally from the Pep hangover we had and changing the philosophy of the team,playing on the strength of what we have,but like any play it won't work if you stopped doing the right things.

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I totally disagree and think Alves had to take up the slack of midfield not being good enough to support Messi in build up play and Messi never tracked back all that much fro RW before Raki arrived anyway.

Signing Raki over Kroos was a huge mistake.

khaled_a_d said:

I totally disagree, our midfield has played on MSN strength and bailed them out as much as they bailed us out, Rakitic has covered a lot of Messi lack of effort and Alves going forward too much,Iniesta provided a lot of creativity in midfield. Adding Kroos in 2014 wouldn't have worked in such "very successful" set up we had. Kroos himself started to become really successful in RM midfield with a DM like Casamiero, put him with Iniesta,Busquets & MSN and the midfield is more of liability. There is nothing wrong in playing in team strength.

Signing Rakitic over Kroos was never a mistake,the mistake wasn't keep working on the team and making later wrong signings.
Iniesta has declined,Messi lack of effort became even more evident and he himself moved to AM,Alves left (and even during 2nd half of last season age cought him) and we were totally exposed in many aspects. We had Rakitic & Busquets to cover for MSN,declined Iniesta and lack of RB.Why? because we thought Roberto is good RB,Gomes is gr8 CM and Denis is good AM to rest Iniesta,while Arda is good midfielder. Those was latter mistakes,not 2014 mistake.
Back then we have done the right thing, moving on finally from the Pep hangover we had and changing the philosophy of the team,playing on the strength of what we have,but like any play it won't work if you stopped doing the right things.

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You are wrong.
You know why Kroos started performing better once Casemiro came. Is because before that, Kroos was the DM.

It would be like a midfield containing Rakitic, Xavi and Iniesta, with Rakitic as the DM


Kroos would have benefited equally by having Busquets beside him

Messi was our striker,not RW when he didn't track back. And it isn't like we have been successful in the 3 seasons before 2014.
I think we agree to disagree then,I think if we signed Kroos we would have never had same success we had in past 2 season,probably he would have lasted longer than Rakitic though.

khaled_a_d said:

Messi was our striker,not RW when he didn't track back. And it isn't like we have been successful in the 3 seasons before 2014.
I think we agree to disagree then,I think if we signed Kroos we would have never had same success we had in past 2 season,probably he would have lasted longer than Rakitic though.

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Messi at RW has never tracked back all that much either so it is nothing new.

The fact that Alves had to be the player to get close to Messi and get involved in build up play is why Raki had to drop deeper.

khaled_a_d said:

Messi was our striker,not RW when he didn't track back. And it isn't like we have been successful in the 3 seasons before 2014.
I think we agree to disagree then,I think if we signed Kroos we would have never had same success we had in past 2 season,probably he would have lasted longer than Rakitic though.

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I think if we signed Kroos

We would have won the treble still and maintained a world class team to carry us through the next 5 seasons or so
Instead of one season wonder Rakitic

We should have signed both tbh. One thing is for sure, when a player like Kroos is available, you try to buy him. Madrid had some world class players in midfield, and added a new young world class midfielder while we did nothing.