Serbia

It's not ironic to be criticised by a country like England, if anything, we're in a better position than most given that we'd had these massive problems with racism and hooliganism and have gone a long way towards stamping them out. Hooliganism in particular was dealt with in the wake of our teams being banned from all European competitions, so maybe Serbia needs the same? UEFA have an obligation to protect foreign fans, players and officials from this sort of thing. The nuances of Serbian history and culture are an issue for Serbians, they shouldn't be made one for everyone else.

Bojan said:

Jaric said, that it is ironic to be criticized on racism and hooliganism by countries that practically invented both. While English media are exaggerating (just look at their reports about Ukraine and campaign they had before EC), the problem is evidently there among some groups.

But the problem still isn't in vacuum. English history is that of colonialists while Serbia was for 300-400 years under Turkish yoke. Who were, arguably, a different race. You can't justify racism but the historical context isn't the same for Western and Eastern countries and it needs to be approached differently.

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Bojan, look at the footage yourself. If you want to bury your haed in the sand and say it is exaggerated then fine, but no-one is going to buy that. Racism is racism, end of. There is no excuse.

Bojan makes an important point because the English & Americans have a history of failing to appreciate the pot/kettle black analogy (Nevermind their catastrophic history of Imperialism) but there are indeed deep seeded tensions, anger & violence that remain in the Balkans...Serbia are only a decade removed from participating in some of the worst atrocities we've witnessed in the last century, all in the name of Nationalism...It cannot be swept under the rug and must be treated seriously

Bojan said:

Jaric said, that it is ironic to be criticized on racism and hooliganism by countries that practically invented both. While English media are exaggerating (just look at their reports about Ukraine and campaign they had before EC), the problem is evidently there among some groups.

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There's been racism pretty much throughout recorded human history, and it's not in any way restricted to just skin colour. Ethnical cleansing and wars between different ethnical groups have sadly been consistently shown its ugly face whenever people have let themselves be decieved and controlled by those with evil intentions.

FCBarca said:

Bojan makes an important point because the English & Americans have a history of failing to appreciate the pot/kettle black analogy [...]

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Because it doesn't work. Modern Britain is one of the most tolerant countries in Europe. Not that it's really relevant either way, whatever the state of race relations in the UK, they still wouldn't excuse what the Serbian crowd are guilty of. I also think you're heavily confusing British history with American history. The state of racism in the UK has never mirrored that of the US, or ever gone to the extremes that it did there.

Yet they did next to nothing about an overt and well publicized act from their team captain, didn't they?...Speaks volumes, particularly in contrast to the way Suarez was vilified

Don't sugarcoat it, Imperial England may not have overt monkey chants and visible violence/racism, but it's deeply institutionalized - that comes from centuries of weaving it into the culture

FCBarca said:

Yet they did next to nothing about an overt and well publicized act from their team captain, didn't they?...Speaks volumes, particularly in contrast to the way Suarez was vilified

Don't sugarcoat it, Imperial England may not have overt monkey chants and visible violence/racism, but it's deeply institutionalized - that comes from centuries of weaving it into the culture

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This.

Serbian hooligans are messed up...say what you want about Tito, but the man knew the kind of nationalist animals he had to contain and it's a tragedy Serbia has to have this reputation because of the actions of a vocal few, I wish Serbian players would risk coming out and condemning this.

But when it comes to the English media showing these stories nonstop there's a clear element of nationalist condescension there itself. Even if many fans hate Terry, the media downplayed the story and his teammates excused his actions while Suarez was made out to be a savage by even more fans, not to mention the media. I'd much rather be a minority in England than Serbia, that's for sure, and that's a direct result of much longer period of ethnic interactions and dealing with the issue, but racism isn't dead in England, far from it, and when you hear the media harp on these stories I can't help but feel like they care less about fighting racism than they do mocking other states.

Jenks said:

Because it doesn't work. Modern Britain is one of the most tolerant countries in Europe. Not that it's really relevant either way, whatever the state of race relations in the UK, they still wouldn't excuse what the Serbian crowd are guilty of. I also think you're heavily confusing British history with American history. The state of racism in the UK has never mirrored that of the US, or ever gone to the extremes that it did there.

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The UK didn't have nearly the same population with African ancestry as the US did until the 20th century, and the state had no problem during a blind eye to institutionalized racism in its colonies. The UK is arguably the most tolerant country in Europe, yes, but that doesn't mean racism isn't an issue, and it doesn't excuse the kind of British exceptionalism that discriminates not based on skin colour but on national origin.

FCBarca said:

Yet they did next to nothing about an overt and well publicized act from their team captain, didn't they?

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Uh... what? He was investigated by the police, and despite being found not guilty, was then investigated by the FA and given a four match ban. And according to him, they made his position as an England player untenable, which forced him to retire.

Don't sugarcoat it, Imperial England may not have overt monkey chants and visible violence/racism, but it's deeply institutionalized - that comes from centuries of weaving it into the culture

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In the same way that it is/was for most of the Western world. I'm not denying our racist past, it's just one we share with just about everyone in Western Europe. We had massive problems, but nothing like that which the US faced. It's a strange comparison to draw really.

What I don't understand, is why aren't more countries making a fuss about this? Surely every other FA should be looking to protect their players from potential abuse too? Too many people in football seem to want to sweep it under the rug, especially at FIFA. Maybe Sepp Blatter thinks we should all shake hands and forget about it...

Jenks said:

Uh... what? He was investigated by the police, and despite being found not guilty, was then investigated by the FA and given a four match ban. And according to him, they made his position as an England player untenable, which forced him to retire.

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It was a circus that was handled in a manner reminiscent of the 60s denial in the US, you can spin it anyway you like it but the evidence is clear

Jenks said:

In the same way that it is/was for most of the Western world. I'm not denying our racist past, it's just one we share with just about everyone in Western Europe. We had massive problems, but nothing like that which the US faced. It's a strange comparison to draw really.

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Glass houses, mon frere...The English need to settle their own accounts before demanding anyone else do anything, even the reprehensible things that have gone on Serbia...The 'Do as I say, not as I do' logic is something Americans & the English have clung to like drug addicts blaming someone else for their problems...My advice, get help first

Jenks said:

What I don't understand, is why aren't more countries making a fuss about this? Surely every other FA should be looking to protect their players from potential abuse too? Too many people in football seem to want to sweep it under the rug, especially at FIFA. Maybe Sepp Blatter thinks we should all shake hands and forget about it...

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It's disturbing to me, absolutely...There's a growing wave, globally...The English could've stamped it out but then again the Americans could've shown balance in the Middle East as well yet here we are...Can't have one set of rules to apply to others and then expect that they won't/shouldn't apply to yourself as well...UN is only marginally better than UEFA/FIFA, unfortunately

As Chris Tucker once opined, follow the money and there's always some rich/powerful white men at the center of things who are the bad guys...Instead of making the world a better or more equitable place, they're looking to hoarde things for themselves...A big reason why so many atrocities have been ignored for centuries

FCBarca said:

It was a circus that was handled in a manner reminiscent of the 60s denial in the US, you can spin it anyway you like it but the evidence is clear

Glass houses, mon frere...The English need to settle their own accounts before demanding anyone else do anything, even the reprehensible things that have gone on Serbia...The 'Do as I say, not as I do' logic is something Americans & the English have clung to like drug addicts blaming someone else for their problems...My advice, get help first

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But the thing is that it seems, atleast from an outside perspective, like England/the UK is one of the countries in the world that have made the most effort in dealing with racism.

That the English FA didn't strike down on Terry as they should have probably has more to do with protecting its own interests, IE that of the 3 lions, than deliberately punishing Suarez harder because he's South American.

The biggest problem in this story is not racism itself in SErbia because there are quite a few black people visitin or started to live here in the past few years and socialy there were no problems.The biggest problem are the hooligans,there is a group of hooligans that are protected by the someone that are causing number of problem on our matches,and it is all well organised.We are very passionate for our sports as all balkans is and sometimes adrenaline pumps in too much,so i guess when someone provocked that guy to show the middle finger to the audience couple of those hooligan savages started racial abuse and some supporters followed out of anger bcs we were losing....
The thing got even more pumped up bcs racial abuse is a popular subject in football these years (justified) but sometimes people are even overly abusing it over media..Now we will become savages in the western media ,but the truth is it is happenning all over eaurope especially in England,and it needs to get sorted everywhere...Rio Ferdinand said it well in one sentance...

FCBarca said:

It was a circus that was handled in a manner reminiscent of the 60s denial in the US, you can spin it anyway you like it but the evidence is clear

Glass houses, mon frere...The English need to settle their own accounts before demanding anyone else do anything, even the reprehensible things that have gone on Serbia...The 'Do as I say, not as I do' logic is something Americans & the English have clung to like drug addicts blaming someone else for their problems...My advice, get help first

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I never spun anything, I gave you the facts. John Terry was investigated by the police for racist abuse and was found not guilty. Despite that, the FA still investigated him and still charged him with a four match ban. If they wanted to protect him then the police investigation would have given them the perfect excuse not to. And the reason the ban wasn't as severe as Suarez's was because the crime wasn't as severe. Terry used a slur once, while Suarez repeated it multiple times whilst pinching Evra's skin (which you can see on the tape) telling him he doesn't talk to people of his colour. And frankly, even if we assume the FA are no saints, so what? The glass house reasoning doesn't hold water. What happened in Serbia is wrong, and it's the FA's responsibility to report it to protect their players regardless of their past.

alex88bg said:

The biggest problem in this story is not racism itself in SErbia because there are quite a few black people visitin or started to live here in the past few years and socialy there were no problems.The biggest problem are the hooligans,there is a group of hooligans that are protected by the someone that are causing number of problem on our matches,and it is all well organised.We are very passionate for our sports as all balkans is and sometimes adrenaline pumps in too much,so i guess when someone provocked that guy to show the middle finger to the audience couple of those hooligan savages started racial abuse and some supporters followed out of anger bcs we were losing....
The thing got even more pumped up bcs racial abuse is a popular subject in football these years (justified) but sometimes people are even overly abusing it over media..Now we will become savages in the western media ,but the truth is it is happenning all over eaurope especially in England,and it needs to get sorted everywhere...Rio Ferdinand said it well in one sentance...

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According to Danny Rose and a few of the other players, the racial abuse was happening throughout the match, and was the reason for him reacting the way he did. I accept of course that it likely was just a set of hooligans, but still, something needs to be done.

Jenks said:

I never spun anything, I gave you the facts. John Terry was investigated by the police for racist abuse and was found not guilty.

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So was OJ, big deal...Don't get caught up in what the police or law did in England, that merely speaks to the institutional racism I already addressed

You're spinning and this is part of the problem...JT and how his fiasco was handled was despicable but the FA, government and police have a history of protecting their heroes (white)

FCBarca said:

So was OJ, big deal...Don't get caught up in what the police or law did in England, that merely speaks to the institutional racism I already addressed

You're spinning and this is part of the problem...JT and how his fiasco was handled was despicable but the FA, government and police have a history of protecting their heroes (white)

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Again, I'm not spinning, you are. I'm giving you the facts, which you're selectively ignoring, and then just throwing around baseless assertions about institutionalized racism. If it's such a racist system, then why did the FA investigate and charge Terry at all? Why not just accept the CPS not-guilty verdict and leave it at that? It would have been very easy for them to do. I'm not suggesting that there is no racism whatsoever anywhere in the English system, that would be impossible to eradicate, but at the same time you can't just lazily claim that his not-guilty verdict is the result of racism without any evidence to back it up.

Using 'evidence' that the police 'cleared' him is no more relevant than OJ being cleared or the basic concept of institutional racism - of which you clearly do not comprehend...I can't help you there, perhaps furthering your education might help