Pep Guardiola

Z

Zangash

Banned
Oh yeah, luck definitely plays a huge part, but Pep getting outclassed by both us and our ugly white friends in back to back years can hardly be attributed to luck. The only bad luck I can see for Bayern is they keep getting matched up with the Spanish giants in the semis instead of drawing the usual semi-final whipping boys (Chelsea, PSG, Dortmund, Juve, Shalke... there's usually at least one).

Obviously, if Messi hadn't have turned on his "Lower liga opposition" mode late in the second half we'd be going into the second leg at a deadlock but when you fail to pressure the opposing keeper even once when your opponents aren't even trying to play defensively that is a solid indicator that something is wrong with your tactics.

I absolutely feel we deserved it most. Despite the scoreline being 0-0 it was clear which of us was playing the better football. If it weren't for Neuer's kicksaves and running off the line the score would have been far uglier and then luck wouldn't even be an option for discussion.
 
Luftstalag14

Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
BBZ, Guardiola can play non-possession football. Case in point: Bayern's Buli game against BVB at Signal Iduna Park not too long ago. Not only did Bayern give up possession and let BVB come out at them, they almost parked the bus. And Bayern won the game, 0:1.
 
JackaL

JackaL

New member
Pep is a philosopher and the only critics I agree with are the ones telling that he likes to experiment a lot. That is very demanding for the players (for himself as well). His tactical understanding is probably the best in the world, but the players might not be as intelligent as he expects them to be. His possession based football is actually the perfect strategy against a lot of sides, yet against the bigger teams, it is not only possession that counts. Actually, possession is not even correlated with wins, but it causes other things for the possession playing team and its opponents. It takes hell of a lot quality players that are quick (mentally and physically) and intelligent. He had the perfect team with Barca. At Bayern, this flow never seemed to be there, they learned a lot from him and they play very well, yet it never had the beautiful style that Barca always put on the table (surely the quality of players is also different). The reason why I think it is not enough to only compare statistics of different managers and games and come to the conclusion that one is better than the other is particularly because of this. Look at Mou for example, he is arguably the most successful manager there is. But Pep has done a different thing here at Barca and still tries to further develop his philosophy. The Barca in 2010-11 was galaxies ahead of any football team that human kind has witnessed. Even when teams were not loosing against us, we were unstoppable, u could see it in any game, any move we made, opponents were getting crazy almost to the level to quit the game (remember Ronaldo's face when he was caught in a triangle).

That is the reason why he sais there is no other football that he can play, because in his analytics it doesn't make sense to do that.
 
Kinlejus

Kinlejus

New member
dakt said:
His legacy here is beyond anything. We made history with him and what a history! I don't know why some of you keep forgetting that.
Pep is always welcomed here. Great coach, but it's not easy to keep the team on the high level, especially after what Jupp did. Repeating that is almost impossible and
if people cant get that then they better not follow football.
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He left us when we needed him the MOST! The team was already shattered back then, and then the news of his departure was the final nail. You could argue that we all have a choice, he made his.

A traitor.
 
raskolnikov

raskolnikov

Well-known member
Kinlejus said:
He left us when we needed him the MOST! The team was already shattered back then, and then the news of his departure was the final nail. You could argue that we all have a choice, he made his.

A traitor.
Click to expand...

Pep isnt a traitor, he has done enough for Barca to what he wanted imo. Its not like he left us to join Real or something.
 
Kinlejus

Kinlejus

New member
I don't see things this way, but then again we all have different perspectives, therefore this potential debate regarding his departure is not worth the powder and shot.
 
i_bleed_blaugrana

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
Pep is our hero, a hero of Cruyff and Bielsa. Never call him a traitor, it is our board who traded on him.

Overall, I think its quite simple: Barca won this game because they are used to these types of matches more than Bayern are and that comes down to the characteristics of each clubs respective league. Barca aren't the only team in La Liga that play technically focused football rooted in short passing and possession. Valencia, Sevilla, Real, even lowly Rayo Vallecano, these are all teams that have given Barca real fights this season and kept possession close. Because of this, Barca has learned what it takes to win these sorts of games, how to be more direct when necessary and it is this aspect, this evolutionary trait, that is making Lucho's Barca perhaps even stronger than Pep's.

As far as Bayern goes, only Wolfsburg, Dortmund (at least they are before they get picked apart each summer) and maybe on their day Schalke are the only teams that can really come close to matching Bayern's quality, technically speaking, and certainly not across the board the way Bayern are. In particular, both Wolfsburg and Dortmund play more directly than possessively, so Bayern are used to having their way in terms of possession and having to break down direct, compact teams week in and week out. That's why Pep is always tweaking, he has to based on the demands of the league.

I think this difference speaks volumes on why Pep is struggling at Bayern right now. I've always questioned whether or not Bayern's players had the technical ability to keep up with Pep's demands and while some can, when the chips are on the table, Bayern lose control of matches way too easily than any Pep team should and I think it stems from players reverting to what they know: direct, physical football.

More so than Robben or Ribery, Pep really needs Javi Martinez and Alaba. If you replace Martinez for Alonso and Alaba for Rafinha, Pep's 3 man system works far more effectively.

In conclusion, Bayern's problems are borne is stubbornness from both the club and Pep. Pep needs to have more direct approaches, its been apparent since he was here at Barca while Bayern's fans and players (Muller, Schweini etc.) need to buy in more to the philosophy, adjust their games slightly or this is only going to continue for Bayern.
 
K

KyletheMuslim

Guardiolista
i_bleed_blaugrana said:
Pep is our hero, a hero of Cruyff and Bielsa. Never call him a traitor, it is our board who traded on him.

Overall, I think its quite simple: Barca won this game because they are used to these types of matches more than Bayern are and that comes down to the characteristics of each clubs respective league. Barca aren't the only team in La Liga that play technically focused football rooted in short passing and possession. Valencia, Sevilla, Real, even lowly Rayo Vallecano, these are all teams that have given Barca real fights this season and kept possession close. Because of this, Barca has learned what it takes to win these sorts of games, how to be more direct when necessary and it is this aspect, this evolutionary trait, that is making Lucho's Barca perhaps even stronger than Pep's.

As far as Bayern goes, only Wolfsburg, Dortmund (at least they are before they get picked apart each summer) and maybe on their day Schalke are the only teams that can really come close to matching Bayern's quality, technically speaking, and certainly not across the board the way Bayern are. In particular, both Wolfsburg and Dortmund play more directly than possessively, so Bayern are used to having their way in terms of possession and having to break down direct, compact teams week in and week out. That's why Pep is always tweaking, he has to based on the demands of the league.

I think this difference speaks volumes on why Pep is struggling at Bayern right now. I've always questioned whether or not Bayern's players had the technical ability to keep up with Pep's demands and while some can, when the chips are on the table, Bayern lose control of matches way too easily than any Pep team should and I think it stems from players reverting to what they know: direct, physical football.

More so than Robben or Ribery, Pep really needs Javi Martinez and Alaba. If you replace Martinez for Alonso and Alaba for Rafinha, Pep's 3 man system works far more effectively.

In conclusion, Bayern's problems are borne is stubbornness from both the club and Pep. Pep needs to have more direct approaches, its been apparent since he was here at Barca while Bayern's fans and players (Muller, Schweini etc.) need to buy in more to the philosophy, adjust their games slightly or this is only going to continue for Bayern.
Click to expand...

:goodpost:
 
Simmelbert

Simmelbert

New member
i_bleed_blaugrana said:
In conclusion, Bayern's problems are borne is stubbornness from both the club and Pep. Pep needs to have more direct approaches, its been apparent since he was here at Barca while Bayern's fans and players (Muller, Schweini etc.) need to buy in more to the philosophy, adjust their games slightly or this is only going to continue for Bayern.
Click to expand...

until the injurie crisis beginn, we played a lot more direct. than the shit begann...

i have no critcism about pep.

pep is love, pep is life.
 
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BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
i_bleed_blaugrana said:
I think this difference speaks volumes on why Pep is struggling at Bayern right now. I've always questioned whether or not Bayern's players had the technical ability to keep up with Pep's demands and while some can, when the chips are on the table, Bayern lose control of matches way too easily than any Pep team should and I think it stems from players reverting to what they know: direct, physical football.
Click to expand...

I think that is also has something to do with the famous "DNA".

Imagine if we would have a coach who would suddenly ask a 100% direct approach from Barca.
Now, our players could try to learn, but all of our La Masia kids and Spanish/Brasilian players are more or less raised in different surroundings and they just play/learn/live different kind of football since the youngest age.

Germans just play traditionally slightly different from the youngest age in their youth academies, and probably as a kids on schoolgrounds etc.
So, it is "easier" to turn kids from Barcelona or Brasil into Tiki-Taka robots than Germans who were taught something else for their whole life.

(Analogy would be Rakitic and Xavi.
Xavi can play Tiki-Taka to perfection.
Rakitic can try and he will improve, but he will never play it on Xavi's level, even though, on the other hand, Raki brings some other qualities aka DNA which Xavi will never posses.)

The same is imo with Germans and Spanish players.
You can teach Germans to play Tiki-Taka to some extent, but it will never be the same as Spanish's original Tiki-Taka.

That said, I am concerned how will Pep's future career look like if he will continue to be a one trick pony (more or less).
Wherever he will go, it seems that he will just try to replicate Barca's Tiki-Taka from 2009-2011.

And then:
1. none other club is Barca
2. none other country is Spain
3. plus, the days and a perfect moment in a history for Tiki-Taka is gone

Pep will really need to change his approach and introduce some other options.
Forcing only a copy of Barca's Tiki-Taka will more or less lead to a bunch of semi-failures like our Barca with Tito or Tata.

Plus, even if he would return here, I would never change the current Lucho for him, and I would never want to return to the original Tiki-Taka anymore.

This is not 2009' anymore...
 
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Simmelbert

Simmelbert

New member
BBZ8800 said:
I think that is also has something to do with the famous "DNA".

Imagine if we would have a coach who would suddenly ask a 100% direct approach from Barca.
Now, our players could try to learn, but all of our La Masia kids and Spanish/Brasilian players are more or less raised in different surroundings and they just play/learn/live different kind of football since the youngest age.

Germans just play traditionally slightly different from the youngest age in their youth academies, and probably as a kids on schoolgrounds etc.
So, it is "easier" to turn kids from Barcelona or Brasil into Tiki-Taka robots than Germans who were taught something else for their whole life.

(Analogy would be Rakitic and Xavi.
Xavi can play Tiki-Taka to perfection.
Rakitic can try and he will improve, but he will never play it on Xavi's level, even though, on the other hand, Raki brings some other qualities aka DNA which Xavi will never posses.)

The same is imo with Germans and Spanish players.
You can teach Germans to play Tiki-Taka to some extent, but it will never be the same as Spanish's original Tiki-Taka.

That said, I am concerned how will Pep's future career look like if he will continue to be a one trick pony (more or less).
Wherever he will go, it seems that he will just try to replicate Barca's Tiki-Taka from 2009-2011.

And then:
1. none other club is Barca
2. none other country is Spain
3. plus, the days and a perfect moment in a history for Tiki-Taka is gone

Pep will really need to change his approach and introduce some other options.
Forcing only a copy of Barca's Tiki-Taka will more or less lead to a bunch of semi-failures like our Barca with Tito or Tata.

Plus, even if he would return here, I would never change the current Lucho for him, and I would never want to return to the original Tiki-Taka anymore.

This is not 2009' anymore...
Click to expand...

i repeat myself. this year we didn't play tika-taka.

we played direct attacking football all day long.

just because of the injuries he changed the plan.
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
KyletheMuslim said:
Simmel don't take what BBZ says seriously....
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I didn't watch Bayern that much, but from what I watched and from what their fans says on Bayernzone, they have a similar complaints.

Look at the first post in this topic (but also a lot of other posts):
http://www.bayernzone.com/discussions/4357-who-wants-pep-out.html

I guess that those guys watch Bayern slightly more often, right?
Numerous Bayern's fans complains about possession football and they have similar complaints.

More of their fans wants him out than to stay.
Don't take them seriously either, right? Nice.

Even if Bayern is not playing a true possession football, either way that style is not the most suited for them, as you can see in lots of comments from a lot of neutral football lovers around the internet.
 
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