FC Barcelona Tactics
- Thread starter IrvDizzle
- Start date
I hope we start with Suarez / Neymar / Messi against Real Madrid ....
, *Neymar , Lionel Messi and Luis Súarez played less than 200 minutes between them over the last two days and scored a total of eight *international goals. All three have hit over 40 *goals each for their countries.
, *Neymar , Lionel Messi and Luis Súarez played less than 200 minutes between them over the last two days and scored a total of eight *international goals. All three have hit over 40 *goals each for their countries.
Frodo_FCB
New member
I never thought i would say that, but i think our weakest point right now is our midfield. Once we ruled the world, when Xavi and Iniesta used to ran their ass off in every game. We need some fresh ideas in this part of our game, cause we saw against PSG and ever more against RM that they cant control the game anymore and when we lose the ball they cant press. The worst thing is that they leave the defense exposed and even if we had Hummels, Benatia and TS back, they would look shit if Cristiano, Benzema and Marcelo ran over them.
I'd suggest a few things ..
Alba at left back , period .
Alves right back , period .
Any two CBs as long as Pique isn't one of them..
Iniesta and certainly Pedro should NEVER start for us , just come in as and when needed . Iniesta is a shadow of his former self .
Messi plays central , slightly deeper than Neymar and Suarez . Messi will then have all the space he needs to make those darting , piercing runs forward as Neymar and Suarez will cause havoc as they both seem to attract TWO defenders each ...
I'd have a midfield three of Masch , Rakitic and Xavi running things ..
I've also said over the years that when Busqs isn't on his game WE simply don't play well , as simple as that . We need to get him back to his best !
Alba at left back , period .
Alves right back , period .
Any two CBs as long as Pique isn't one of them..
Iniesta and certainly Pedro should NEVER start for us , just come in as and when needed . Iniesta is a shadow of his former self .
Messi plays central , slightly deeper than Neymar and Suarez . Messi will then have all the space he needs to make those darting , piercing runs forward as Neymar and Suarez will cause havoc as they both seem to attract TWO defenders each ...
I'd have a midfield three of Masch , Rakitic and Xavi running things ..
I've also said over the years that when Busqs isn't on his game WE simply don't play well , as simple as that . We need to get him back to his best !
stopped reading there..
Just an opinion .... We are all entitled to that still ... I presume .
He's a shadow of the Iniesta of TWO years ago ... he's slowed right down , shows I desire and loses possession easily . I wasn't even going mention his monumental gaff with his assist in their bladdy goal on Saturday ..
Last edited:
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Iniesta is still in better form and shape than Xavi ,also better fit with Rakitic
DrPepper
New member
What I'm going to say will be very long and might sound overly negative but I don't mean it to be like that. We still are at a very high level and one of the best teams in the world. All I'm suggesting is about microtactical aspects of the game rather than macrotactical. I'm fairly sure we can the league if we keep beating the smaller teams. That's not too bad. But Champions League? I'm not so sure if we can manage to beat the likes of Chelsea, Madrid, Atletico, Dortmund or Bayern. These matches are about the details and my long post is about just that.
At this point it's just playing possession football for possession's sake. It works good enough against small teams, but even teams like Chelsea or Real Madrid often have like 60% possession against those kinds of teams. In the big matches that "tiki taka" is just a mean to keep the ball and as a result having to defend less. Defensive stability is always good but nowadays the keep ball doesn't offer us much in attack.
Nearly all good chances against Madrid came from fast breaks after we won the ball from them forcing errors in their build up. I don't remember creating chances against an organized Madrid defence with two established banks of four.
Under Guardiola back then, we were famous for dominating the middle and overloading half spaces. It didn't matter who we played. Granada, Bilbao, Arsenal or Madrid; always dominating possession but also controlling the spaces and the match itself. There's no point in having the ball when you don't have control of the match.
What I see now is our two central midfielders pushing wide, nearly to the wings, when we have possession. That's basically giving up on the middle and concentrating on just half spaces and the wings. And now look at Guardiola's Bayern. Last season Alaba and Rafinha as the full backs often sat very narrow and basically pushed up to the half spaces instead of staying wide as normally full backs do. Just so that there are even more passing options in the middle.
http://gfycat.com/CapitalShadyBlackfly
This Dortmund goal shows exactly what we used to do. Play in tight spaces and create overloads. Against big teams we don't do that anymore. We don't really create triangles anymore and play short passing combinations between three or four players that are in the same zone. Now we spread out much more with a maximum of maybe two players occuping a zone. Simply put, we aren't as fluid as we were back then.
Also I have the feeling that our offensive play is much more improvised. Under Guardiola those sweet combinations looked instinctive but I'm fairly certain they were actually trained.
Our stats in terms of possession, pass accuracy etc. haven't really changed in the last few years, but you can easily see a difference in tempo, directness and urgency. We are actually playing more direct (passing length) than under Guardiola but also with a slower tempo. Back then it was very short passing but quick tempo.
And of course our pressing regressed a lot. It's probably the most important factor for a possession team, even more important than the passing itself. Southampton last season had the most average possession of all English teams, but in terms of passing accuracy they were very average (ninth place or so). It shows that they were by far the best pressing team. I must say it has improved under Enrique compared to Martino and Vilanova but it's not top level (Bayern, Dortmund) yet.
Now, I don't really like it when people just suggest that buying better players will solve problems. Especially when you have a clearly defined philosophy like Barca, the tactical system and model of play is actually more important. Even someone like Dani Alves could do much better if he has more defined roles. For example his tendency to cross could be prevented when he plays a more inverse full back role where he ends up occupying half spaces like I said before. Back then I remember Xavi playing over the top passes for Alves who made a run into the box rather than staying wide. So making changes in tactics should come first, especially that we have our transfer ban anyway.
What I'm going to say now might be very speculative but it's a feeling I've had for a longer time and probably negates all I said before, but I think we won't be happy or the same again unless Guardiola decides to come back. There's simply no one better than him at the moment in playing that style of play. It's similar to when Mourinho left Chelsea in 2007. They were never truly happy with the managers that came afterwards which was partly because they were always compared to Mourinho. Our managers also are and always will be compared with Guardiola and it's always going to be a huge task to even come close to achieve what Pep did. Eventually it's their downfall.
At this point it's just playing possession football for possession's sake. It works good enough against small teams, but even teams like Chelsea or Real Madrid often have like 60% possession against those kinds of teams. In the big matches that "tiki taka" is just a mean to keep the ball and as a result having to defend less. Defensive stability is always good but nowadays the keep ball doesn't offer us much in attack.
Nearly all good chances against Madrid came from fast breaks after we won the ball from them forcing errors in their build up. I don't remember creating chances against an organized Madrid defence with two established banks of four.
Under Guardiola back then, we were famous for dominating the middle and overloading half spaces. It didn't matter who we played. Granada, Bilbao, Arsenal or Madrid; always dominating possession but also controlling the spaces and the match itself. There's no point in having the ball when you don't have control of the match.
What I see now is our two central midfielders pushing wide, nearly to the wings, when we have possession. That's basically giving up on the middle and concentrating on just half spaces and the wings. And now look at Guardiola's Bayern. Last season Alaba and Rafinha as the full backs often sat very narrow and basically pushed up to the half spaces instead of staying wide as normally full backs do. Just so that there are even more passing options in the middle.
http://gfycat.com/CapitalShadyBlackfly
This Dortmund goal shows exactly what we used to do. Play in tight spaces and create overloads. Against big teams we don't do that anymore. We don't really create triangles anymore and play short passing combinations between three or four players that are in the same zone. Now we spread out much more with a maximum of maybe two players occuping a zone. Simply put, we aren't as fluid as we were back then.
Also I have the feeling that our offensive play is much more improvised. Under Guardiola those sweet combinations looked instinctive but I'm fairly certain they were actually trained.
Our stats in terms of possession, pass accuracy etc. haven't really changed in the last few years, but you can easily see a difference in tempo, directness and urgency. We are actually playing more direct (passing length) than under Guardiola but also with a slower tempo. Back then it was very short passing but quick tempo.
And of course our pressing regressed a lot. It's probably the most important factor for a possession team, even more important than the passing itself. Southampton last season had the most average possession of all English teams, but in terms of passing accuracy they were very average (ninth place or so). It shows that they were by far the best pressing team. I must say it has improved under Enrique compared to Martino and Vilanova but it's not top level (Bayern, Dortmund) yet.
Now, I don't really like it when people just suggest that buying better players will solve problems. Especially when you have a clearly defined philosophy like Barca, the tactical system and model of play is actually more important. Even someone like Dani Alves could do much better if he has more defined roles. For example his tendency to cross could be prevented when he plays a more inverse full back role where he ends up occupying half spaces like I said before. Back then I remember Xavi playing over the top passes for Alves who made a run into the box rather than staying wide. So making changes in tactics should come first, especially that we have our transfer ban anyway.
What I'm going to say now might be very speculative but it's a feeling I've had for a longer time and probably negates all I said before, but I think we won't be happy or the same again unless Guardiola decides to come back. There's simply no one better than him at the moment in playing that style of play. It's similar to when Mourinho left Chelsea in 2007. They were never truly happy with the managers that came afterwards which was partly because they were always compared to Mourinho. Our managers also are and always will be compared with Guardiola and it's always going to be a huge task to even come close to achieve what Pep did. Eventually it's their downfall.
I
instinct
Guest
^Good post!
I think that we're wasting too much potential right now. We have the best attack in the world and even though Busquets and Iniesta weren't at their best in the past few months they're still world-class.
We can go in two different directions. One option is to return to the real ''tiki-taka'' with fast movement etc although our midfield might not be capable to fulfill their roles exactly like a few years ago (..ok, obviously they're not capable). The other option is to improve our game, to add variety and more importantely to use our players' strenghts.
When people discuss possible formations or tactics one thing comes to my mind: Bayern under Jupp Heynckes.
We have so many players who are fast, good with their feet and technical gifted as well as clynical in front of the goal. They're perfect to rip defence apart but only when they have space to do it. We usually don't have enough space. We give the opponent too much time to think and to reorganize.
Bayern played beautiful football. They didn't park the bus but were defensively solid to say the least. I don't understand why so many people here are against a double pivot. We have two of the best DMs in the world. One is a great ball distributor and the other is probably the world's best tackler and his long balls are great.
Busquets - Mascherano could be better than Schweinsteiger - Martinez.
Why not something like this?
Haters will say Busquets and Mascherano will slow down our game. Our game is slow with or without a double pivot. Rakitic is not the fastest, Iniesta is not the fastest and Alves is not clinical enough (anymore) to be a real threat. We're only dangerous when Messi and Neymar show their individual brilliance or when we much space (which often is not the case). We should at least try it out.
And yes, I'd sign Reus. He is one of the best players in the world, relatively young and only costs 25m. He is far better than Pedro and the perfect player for a more direct style. His link-up play is exceptional and his speed, stamina, work-rate and flair is something we could really use now.
I'm pretty sure that Neymar - Suarez - Messi - Reus + Alba/RB would be enough attacking power. Busquets as a lone pivot (especially when his midfield partners play wide to cover the fullbacks) doesn't work anymore. We saw it vs Real. He gets terribly exposed and I don't even blame him. He has too much space to cover.
I think that we're wasting too much potential right now. We have the best attack in the world and even though Busquets and Iniesta weren't at their best in the past few months they're still world-class.
We can go in two different directions. One option is to return to the real ''tiki-taka'' with fast movement etc although our midfield might not be capable to fulfill their roles exactly like a few years ago (..ok, obviously they're not capable). The other option is to improve our game, to add variety and more importantely to use our players' strenghts.
When people discuss possible formations or tactics one thing comes to my mind: Bayern under Jupp Heynckes.
We have so many players who are fast, good with their feet and technical gifted as well as clynical in front of the goal. They're perfect to rip defence apart but only when they have space to do it. We usually don't have enough space. We give the opponent too much time to think and to reorganize.
Bayern played beautiful football. They didn't park the bus but were defensively solid to say the least. I don't understand why so many people here are against a double pivot. We have two of the best DMs in the world. One is a great ball distributor and the other is probably the world's best tackler and his long balls are great.
Busquets - Mascherano could be better than Schweinsteiger - Martinez.
Why not something like this?
Haters will say Busquets and Mascherano will slow down our game. Our game is slow with or without a double pivot. Rakitic is not the fastest, Iniesta is not the fastest and Alves is not clinical enough (anymore) to be a real threat. We're only dangerous when Messi and Neymar show their individual brilliance or when we much space (which often is not the case). We should at least try it out.
And yes, I'd sign Reus. He is one of the best players in the world, relatively young and only costs 25m. He is far better than Pedro and the perfect player for a more direct style. His link-up play is exceptional and his speed, stamina, work-rate and flair is something we could really use now.
I'm pretty sure that Neymar - Suarez - Messi - Reus + Alba/RB would be enough attacking power. Busquets as a lone pivot (especially when his midfield partners play wide to cover the fullbacks) doesn't work anymore. We saw it vs Real. He gets terribly exposed and I don't even blame him. He has too much space to cover.
Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
Dr. Pepper! Great post indeed, I agree with everything you said. Our problems are much more than personnel and tactical that can be changed/tweaked relatively easily. Ours are much more fundamental that require some soul-searching and sea change. That's why I am feeling so depressed and not seeing any light.^Good post!
I think that we're wasting too much potential right now. We have the best attack in the world and even though Busquets and Iniesta weren't at their best in the past few months they're still world-class.
We can go in two different directions. One option is to return to the real ''tiki-taka'' with fast movement etc although our midfield might not be capable to fulfill their roles exactly like a few years ago (..ok, obviously they're not capable). The other option is to improve our game, to add variety and more importantely to use our players' strenghts.
When people discuss possible formations or tactics one thing comes to my mind: Bayern under Jupp Heynckes.
We have so many players who are fast, good with their feet and technical gifted as well as clynical in front of the goal. They're perfect to rip defence apart but only when they have space to do it. We usually don't have enough space. We give the opponent too much time to think and to reorganize.
Bayern played beautiful football. They didn't park the bus but were defensively solid to say the least. I don't understand why so many people here are against a double pivot. We have two of the best DMs in the world. One is a great ball distributor and the other is probably the world's best tackler and his long balls are great.
Busquets - Mascherano could be better than Schweinsteiger - Martinez.
Why not something like this?
Haters will say Busquets and Mascherano will slow down our game. Our game is slow with or without a double pivot. Rakitic is not the fastest, Iniesta is not the fastest and Alves is not clinical enough (anymore) to be a real threat. We're only dangerous when Messi and Neymar show their individual brilliance or when we much space (which often is not the case). We should at least try it out.
And yes, I'd sign Reus. He is one of the best players in the world, relatively young and only costs 25m. He is far better than Pedro and the perfect player for a more direct style. His link-up play is exceptional and his speed, stamina, work-rate and flair is something we could really use now.
I'm pretty sure that Neymar - Suarez - Messi - Reus + Alba/RB would be enough attacking power. Busquets as a lone pivot (especially when his midfield partners play wide to cover the fullbacks) doesn't work anymore. We saw it vs Real. He gets terribly exposed and I don't even blame him. He has too much space to cover.
I agree with the double pivot part .
Busqs and Masch with Rakitic slightly more forward would be worth trying against some lesser opposition ..
KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
DrPepper
New member
Bayern under Heynckes played beautiful football but weren't a possession team against stronger opposition. I think this expectation that we need to dominate possession against EVERY team is making life for us very difficult. Of course teams like Granada shouldn't have more possession at the Camp Nou than us, but I certainly would have no problems losing the possession battle at the Bernabeu but beating Real Madrid because we all know they're much weaker when they actually can't counter.
I didn't watch much of Bayern in 12/13 when they played smaller teams, but what strikes me is that their reference point for ball circulation is deeper than Barca's. In many matches it was their centre backs Dante and Boateng/Badstuber who played the most passes. Sometimes Schweinsteiger when he drops deep to collect the ball. That tells me that their game plan was luring opposition out and attacking the space they leave behind their defensive line. For us it's Xavi and Busquets who always have the most passes, so our ball circulation is higher up the pitch which results in (or is a result of) deeper opposition defensive lines.
A double pivot of Busquets and Mascherano can work, but not if both play a defensive part. One of them must play a linking role otherwise the team would be divided in two parts. Normally a midfield trio in a 4-2-3-1 consists of a holding, a linking and a creating player. Both holding and linking player have to be defensively competent to give enough stability. One of them also has to be the playmaker (creating player does not mean playmaker). For Bayern it was Martinez (holder), Schweinsteiger (linker) and Kroos/Müller (creator). For Dortmund Bender, Gündogan and Götze/Mkhitaryan. Lastly for Chelsea Matic, Fabregas and Oscar.
If we were to choose players for that position, who would be playing which part? Mascherano and Busquets in my opinion are both holders. Linking players should be good runners (box-to-box players) or playmakers to connect defence and attack. Sergio and Mascherano are definitely not suited for a runner role. Busquets is neither a quick nor a really mobile player, which is needed. Mascherano brings enough physicality but lacks technical ability. And both of them are players that like to stay back anyways and not make the occasional attacking run.
So simple solution: If we want to play 4-2-3-1, then buy Gündogan. He is perfect for that linking player role. Technically superb, competent at defending but also runs a lot, good stamina and good physicality. That would actually allow us to play 4 attacking players then.
This would actually be pretty amazing and could even work in terms of balance: http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=559m
It's all just a dream though.
I didn't watch much of Bayern in 12/13 when they played smaller teams, but what strikes me is that their reference point for ball circulation is deeper than Barca's. In many matches it was their centre backs Dante and Boateng/Badstuber who played the most passes. Sometimes Schweinsteiger when he drops deep to collect the ball. That tells me that their game plan was luring opposition out and attacking the space they leave behind their defensive line. For us it's Xavi and Busquets who always have the most passes, so our ball circulation is higher up the pitch which results in (or is a result of) deeper opposition defensive lines.
A double pivot of Busquets and Mascherano can work, but not if both play a defensive part. One of them must play a linking role otherwise the team would be divided in two parts. Normally a midfield trio in a 4-2-3-1 consists of a holding, a linking and a creating player. Both holding and linking player have to be defensively competent to give enough stability. One of them also has to be the playmaker (creating player does not mean playmaker). For Bayern it was Martinez (holder), Schweinsteiger (linker) and Kroos/Müller (creator). For Dortmund Bender, Gündogan and Götze/Mkhitaryan. Lastly for Chelsea Matic, Fabregas and Oscar.
If we were to choose players for that position, who would be playing which part? Mascherano and Busquets in my opinion are both holders. Linking players should be good runners (box-to-box players) or playmakers to connect defence and attack. Sergio and Mascherano are definitely not suited for a runner role. Busquets is neither a quick nor a really mobile player, which is needed. Mascherano brings enough physicality but lacks technical ability. And both of them are players that like to stay back anyways and not make the occasional attacking run.
So simple solution: If we want to play 4-2-3-1, then buy Gündogan. He is perfect for that linking player role. Technically superb, competent at defending but also runs a lot, good stamina and good physicality. That would actually allow us to play 4 attacking players then.
This would actually be pretty amazing and could even work in terms of balance: http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=559m
It's all just a dream though.
Home of Barca Fans
