J
jiopi
Guest
He most definitely isn't.
footyfan
Calma, calma
One example was the video CesDel posted. Look at how he pulls the two defenders towards him and then just spins around into the open space left behind. Like I said, it's not specifically for scoring chances, I explicitly said I prefer Messi for that - but creating space to keep possession.
It's not like Messi can't do it, his dribbles are just more high risk maneuvres because he focuses on unsettling and fooling the defenders before racing past them while Iniesta always keeps the ball under control. For a midfield battle, Iniesta's style of dribbling is more suited.
Yesterday though and this past season, we have seen that when teams pressure the shit out of Spain/Barca's midfield, Iniesta's lack of strength and pace can be exposed. He was able to get past the first man quite often (he had 7 dribbles, highest in the game) but was brought down soon after. Another thing I noticed yesterday was that he was reluctant to pass the ball off and held on to the ball too long, no doubt contributing to him losing the ball or getting fouled.
It's not like Messi can't do it, his dribbles are just more high risk maneuvres because he focuses on unsettling and fooling the defenders before racing past them while Iniesta always keeps the ball under control. For a midfield battle, Iniesta's style of dribbling is more suited.
Yesterday though and this past season, we have seen that when teams pressure the shit out of Spain/Barca's midfield, Iniesta's lack of strength and pace can be exposed. He was able to get past the first man quite often (he had 7 dribbles, highest in the game) but was brought down soon after. Another thing I noticed yesterday was that he was reluctant to pass the ball off and held on to the ball too long, no doubt contributing to him losing the ball or getting fouled.
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footyfan
Calma, calma
For example, I just posted this video today in the Messi thread:
At 5:40-6:00, you can clearly tell how Messi's strength benefits him. This was something Iniesta was lacking yesterday.
However, more often than not, teams don't pressure Barca as well - thus this side of Iniesta is hardly exposed. Barca's system has for a long time hidden a lot of it's players' weaknesses but now they are showing up more and more.
Just to clarify, I've never actually said or implied that Iniesta is a better dribbler than Messi, I think Messi is better because in more dangerous situations, he dribbles better than Iniesta. He also faces a lot more adversity, something most people overlook. He gets his shirt pulled so many times per game but he shrugs them off quite often so no one notices. However, like I've argued for too many pages now, there are some situations where his dribbling is less suited than Iniesta's.
I really would like you to post some gifs supporting this opinion, because currently I'm suffering from Messi Withdrawal Syndrome and have been missing his magic.
At 5:40-6:00, you can clearly tell how Messi's strength benefits him. This was something Iniesta was lacking yesterday.
However, more often than not, teams don't pressure Barca as well - thus this side of Iniesta is hardly exposed. Barca's system has for a long time hidden a lot of it's players' weaknesses but now they are showing up more and more.
Just to clarify, I've never actually said or implied that Iniesta is a better dribbler than Messi, I think Messi is better because in more dangerous situations, he dribbles better than Iniesta. He also faces a lot more adversity, something most people overlook. He gets his shirt pulled so many times per game but he shrugs them off quite often so no one notices. However, like I've argued for too many pages now, there are some situations where his dribbling is less suited than Iniesta's.
I really would like you to post some gifs supporting this opinion, because currently I'm suffering from Messi Withdrawal Syndrome and have been missing his magic.
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J
jiopi
Guest
That example hardly creates any space, he just beats two players. And we all know from statistics how Messi murders Iniesta at beating a player.
If Messi played in midfield he would do better than Iniesta, Iniesta wouldn't do nearly as good in Messi's position. And that has nothing to do with being able to "create space" or "glide" or "ghost" like a undead in the field, or other crap like that.
It's because Messi is the better dribbler of the ball, he has better control of it, he can do everything with it at higher pace. With Iniesta dribbling seems like a skill, with Messi it really seems like he was born with the ball. It looks so natural, and that's exactly why it's so effective.
footyfan
Calma, calma
Look at these two goals, started almost exclusively because Messi loses the ball in midfield. This hardly ever happens with Iniesta, because his dribbling involves less risk. Messi actually tries to panna Lampard, a move that is no doubt suited more in the final third than in midfield. The second one, he drops his shoulder to fool the Atletico player and loses the ball.
J
jiopi
Guest
No space between the players, but there he goes
Last control.
Dribble through parked bus.
The last two dribbles are well beyond Iniesta's skill.
footyfan
Calma, calma
How is this not dribbling? And he doesn't just keep the ball close to his feet and run, he uses a lot of his skill and his timing and movements are brilliant.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Those are chopping through opposition defenders in an attacking situation. Iniesta's dribbling is suited to a slow midfield battle where he'll completely change the outlook of the buildup with 3-4 maneuvers and passes. Messi's on the other hand is attack minded, you're not going to see him aid nearly as much in buildup and distribution as Iniesta. Saying Messi would do better than Iniesta in his position is pretty ridiculous. He doesn't have the ball skills or style of play suited to that role at all. I don't understand how your view of a dribble is so robotic that you can't acknowledge that there are different styles and that Iniesta is better in his own way for his own purposes than Messi.
J
jiopi
Guest
Iniesta gets dispossessed far more than Messi, in relation to dribbling.
Successful dribbles 09-13 La Liga
Messi 629 - Iniesta 264
Dispossessed
Messi 362 - Iniesta 225
Conversion ratio
Messi 1,74 - Iniesta 1,17
And that's with playing in less space, with more markers, and more aggressive markers. There is no comparison.
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footyfan
Calma, calma
We don't know where the dispossession occurs though. It's very likely that most of Iniesta's dispossessions happen in the final third, same as Messi's. Also, like I've said:
- I don't hold much trust in the conversion ratio because I know whoscored doesn't count all of Iniesta's dribbles. Hence, at this point in time I only look at the absolute value of dispossessions *when thinking of a midfield battle*. For an attacking situation, I will always prefer Messi.
- We need to know where dispossessions and turnovers occur. At this point in time, we/I am only running on memory and I believe Iniesta doesn't lose the ball in such obvious situations as Messi.
- I don't hold much trust in the conversion ratio because I know whoscored doesn't count all of Iniesta's dribbles. Hence, at this point in time I only look at the absolute value of dispossessions *when thinking of a midfield battle*. For an attacking situation, I will always prefer Messi.
- We need to know where dispossessions and turnovers occur. At this point in time, we/I am only running on memory and I believe Iniesta doesn't lose the ball in such obvious situations as Messi.
J
jiopi
Guest
Most likely, but that's because dribbling there is more difficult.
- They count as much dribbles as with Messi, "law of averages". Example like in the first gifs I posted, Messi hardly beats anybody.
- We already know that dribbling is harder, more advanced you play, and that's where Messi plays more than Iniesta.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Well moving on from jiopi's unbelievably stubborn Messi-love,
Iniesta: "I'm still studying sports sciences at university. Think they're about to kick me out because it takes so long. Hard to find time."
Hmm I didn't know a player of his caliber would still be able to manage taking college courses at all. Mata did it at a younger age with more free time on his hands, but props to Iniesta for actually striving to do so unlike most footballers.
Iniesta: "I'm still studying sports sciences at university. Think they're about to kick me out because it takes so long. Hard to find time."
Hmm I didn't know a player of his caliber would still be able to manage taking college courses at all. Mata did it at a younger age with more free time on his hands, but props to Iniesta for actually striving to do so unlike most footballers.
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