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Thread: Thiago Alcantara

  1. #14011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamzah View Post
    Good points, I agree with what you said. Still those Bayern and Madrid eams were capable of adapting to a different style and thas why I value players like Paulinho
    Even Barca 14/15 were very adaptable and that was part of why we smacked Bayern at Camp Nou. I agree having other options is great and all those teams were great on the counter too. Paulinho can/will be useful in this regard in the CL for us this season, and hopefully even moreso next season with a better squad.

    Just that the basis of their dominance almost always began with the ability to control a game and the outcome. To inflict their will on the opponent and not have to play reactively to secure the win. Counterattacking was a powerful weapon but like 80% of the time those teams could just submit teams based on their unrelenting superiority and control.
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    Don't see how his move to Bayern was good for his career. He neither won CL nor got into Spain NT as starter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barcaman View Post
    Don't see how his move to Bayern was good for his career. He neither won CL nor got into Spain NT as starter.
    He is a starter for Spain.

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    To everyone saying that Thiago sucks defensively: do you realise that he isn't the same player that left us 4 years ago? Not saying he is Kanté or whatever, but he actually became a decent player defensively with an incredible workrate and amazing lecture of the game (there's a reason why he consistently has the most interceptions in the BL). Unlike Coutinho, you could play him in midfield with another purely creative midfielder since he doesn't neglect his defensive duties.

    On top of that, he is still one of the most creative players around. Maybe not in the same way as your Coutinhos and Ozils, since he plays way deeper, but he is undeniably creative in a different way. He's an incredible playmaker who's capable of dictating the tempo of a game, something I can't see Coutinho or Ozil do tbh. Not comparing Thiago and Coutinho here, but I'm just saying he has qualities Coutinho doesn't have.

    And finally, Thiago is just beautiful to watch! I'll say it again, it's a damn shame that his career is being ruined by injuries.

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    Bayern in 2011-2013 was a possession based side, except for that one time when they met an even more possession based team and someone had to take the passive role.. Obviously there's only 100% possession to distribute. One HAS to sit deeper and adapt to it, either voluntary or involuntary. We refer to teams such as Bayern and Madrid as possession based instead of counter attacking sides, because they dominated possession in all their games except when they met a team just like them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamDav1982 View Post
    Atletico were maybe the best counter attacking side along with Real those seasons. So yes the best counter attacking teams were the ones making the finals and winning it more than others.

    As were Barca the year they won it and many of the important goals came from lightening counter attacks.

    Some could do both.

    Teams obsessed with possession have struggled.

    You can control a game and still win it as you are the better counter attacking side. That is fairly simple to understand.
    Atleti are the only recent example of sustained success through years without control, and they're a difficult team to successfully emulate. Dortmund in 12/13 too got to the final relying a lot on counters. Yet they both failed in the face of more dominant and controlling teams. Counterattacking is a great weapon but sides that only rely on the counter yet get dominated/pinned back by other teams rarely succeed consistently.

    The teams obsessed with possession only have struggled but a lot of them were awful defensively too (Barca 12/13, Bayern 13/14 against RM). And the best teams did often use counterattacks well but the point is that in most of the games they actually played it was dominance/control that shifted games in their favor and gave them the superiority to win. When better teams submit small teams, they mostly do so controlling the game and not ceding possession just to counter shitty teams. Possession/control isn't everything or even close to it but there's a clear correlation in the best teams and their ability to outplay/out-control inferior sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barcaman View Post
    Don't see how his move to Bayern was good for his career. He neither won CL nor got into Spain NT as starter.
    He is still only 26, can't write him off already. Xavi himself didn't win his 1st CL for Barca till he was 26, how would people have looked back then if they were going on about how "not world class" he was before he started winning?

    Titles can lead to confirmation bias IMO. For me, a world class player is world class before and after he won something or even if he didn't win at all as long as he was performing at a world class level and showing that ability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yannik View Post
    Bayern in 2011-2013 was a possession based side, except for that one time when they met an even more possession based team and someone had to take the passive role.. Obviously there's only 100% possession to distribute. One HAS to sit deeper and adapt to it, either voluntary or involuntary. We refer to teams such as Bayern and Madrid as possession based instead of counter attacking sides, because they dominated possession in all their games except when they met a team just like them.
    Some of the best ever attacking sides who dominated the ball were also the best on the counter attack.

    Peps first Barca side in 2009 were without doubt the best counter attacking side going when had chance to. Just as Barca in 2015, Real have been in CL and that Bayern team probably were.

    The year Bayern won it probably the other best counter attacking side was the other finalist.
    Last edited by JamDav1982; 3rd January 2018 at 08:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAndres View Post
    Atleti are the only recent example of sustained success through years without control, and they're a difficult team to successfully emulate. Dortmund in 12/13 too got to the final relying a lot on counters. Yet they both failed in the face of more dominant and controlling teams. Counterattacking is a great weapon but sides that only rely on the counter yet get dominated/pinned back by other teams rarely succeed consistently.

    The teams obsessed with possession only have struggled but a lot of them were awful defensively too (Barca 12/13, Bayern 13/14 against RM). And the best teams did often use counterattacks well but the point is that in most of the games they actually played it was dominance/control that shifted games in their favor and gave them the superiority to win. When better teams submit small teams, they mostly do so controlling the game and not ceding possession just to counter shitty teams. Possession/control isn't everything or even close to it but there's a clear correlation in the best teams and their ability to outplay/out-control inferior sides.



    He is still only 26, can't write him off already. Xavi himself didn't win his 1st CL for Barca till he was 26, how would people have looked back then if they were going on about how "not world class" he was before he started winning?

    Titles can lead to confirmation bias IMO. For me, a world class player is world class before and after he won something or even if he didn't win at all as long as he was performing at a world class level and showing that ability.
    Have not said anything about teams giving up control or defending to hit on counter.

    The best teams have been the ones that have been the best on the counter. Some could do both as I said. Some have tried to be possession based and taken advantage on counter when it allows it but the possession obssessed teams have struggled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAndres View Post
    Titles can lead to confirmation bias IMO. For me, a world class player is world class before and after he won something or even if he didn't win at all as long as he was performing at a world class level and showing that ability.
    Which he hasn't done yet, but still has time to. Time will tell. One thing's for sure, it won't be based on Bundesliga. It's extremely comfortable to play for Bayern in Bundesliga, knowing that there is no big team to challenge you. A bit similar to how playing for PSG in France must be.

    If he does great in CL in the advanced phases, and he plays top football at the World Cup, things will be more clear.
    Last edited by serghei; 3rd January 2018 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    Which he hasn't done yet, but still has time to. Time will tell. One thing's for sure, it won't be based on Bundesliga. It's extremely comfortable to play for Bayern in Bundesliga, knowing that there is no big team to challenge you. A bit similar to how playing for PSG in France must be.
    How can you just say he isn't world class tho? He has statistically been one of the best in Europe for years, only hampered by injury but also showing it consistently over a season when he was able to. Being an undeniably top 5 player in the Bundesliga over the past 5 years isn't world class? What is then?

    If you consider Thiago not world class, then there is sure as shit no argument at all to call someone like Pogba world class which IIRC you've been doing since 2015. Verratti too. Either Thiago is world class, or a lot of usually labelled "world class" midfielders actually aren't by your definition.
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    What is WC level though? B because if Thiago isn't WC then maybe only 10-15 players altogether are WC in football, Everytime I've seen him play, which is more than most on here I can bet he as looked Excellent.

    I'm all for coutinho, but a midfield with them both, would be heavenly and if I could get thiago for say 80m I would take that over coutinho,who can't be considered WC playing for liverpool struggling to finish in the top 4 for years if thiago isn't and KDB as been WC for what 8 months at most, Silva for probably less especially as a CM.

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    Or verratti who I have never seen a have a great game against a top team if that is the measure of WC

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAndres View Post

    If you consider Thiago not world class, then there is sure as shit no argument at all to call someone like Pogba world class which IIRC you've been doing since 2015. Verratti too. Either Thiago is world class, or a lot of usually labelled "world class" midfielders actually aren't by your definition.
    This is also a great point. Serie A until this season been a one man league and Pogba had Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal beside him. Never had a dominant performance for Juve in the CL either. He's been good, but not truly great.


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    Wouldnt call Pogba world class either but Thiago needs to do more against the top sides in CL as well.

    He has looked neat and tidy without too much impact too often.

    World class is open to interpretation anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAndres View Post
    How can you just say he isn't world class tho? He has statistically been one of the best in Europe for years, only hampered by injury but also showing it consistently over a season when he was able to. Being an undeniably top 5 player in the Bundesliga over the past 5 years isn't world class? What is then?

    If you consider Thiago not world class, then there is sure as shit no argument at all to call someone like Pogba world class which IIRC you've been doing since 2015. Verratti too. Either Thiago is world class, or a lot of usually labelled "world class" midfielders actually aren't by your definition.
    Debatable the bolded part I think.

    Verratti, you're probably right. Quite a similar case to Thiago, except Thiago is injured a lot more. Pogba no. Better than Thiago, with better career, better performances in important games (including on Bernabeu in the CL semifinal where he played excellent in the 2nd half), now he's by far United's best player, even though Mourinho's tactics are shit. Although, yea, Pogba is not a very clear case either.

    But I suspect more fans would rather say about Pogba that he is world class than Thiago if made to choose.
    Last edited by serghei; 3rd January 2018 at 08:50 PM.

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