Ernesto Valverde: An Analysis of his tenure

serghei said:

There's different versions of Barca, but again, we come to the same argument. The team played that way with a huge part of the team being La Masia players. It's clear that the way Pep played was already ingrained within the club for a long time. Pep is himself a Barca ideological "product". He learned most of what he knows inside FC Barcelona, following Cruyff's model. He wouldn't have been able to play like that and have success instantly with homegrown players, unless his vision was a match with that of the club.

So, there are different versions of Barcelona, true, (just like there are different versions of Ferrari, not all identical, some even very different, but, nonetheless, you still sense you are looking at a Ferrari), but Pep's Barca is totally Barca in style. It's certainly not a way of playing that landed from outer space and clicked right away because we were lucky. It was part of the culture of the club since Cruyff came at Barcelona. And that's almost half a century.

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With that logic, Ev's and especially Setien's football are coming from the same place.

So, basically, Te Amo is asking for "Barca" who were equally as bad or as far from Pep's football than EV and Setien.

For example, do you think that EV's or Setien's Barca is farther from Barca's roots than let's say shitty Barca from Gaspart's era?

Deep down even EV's and Setien's Barca has Barca's DNA in itself.
I mean, Setien is a lover of an original Dream Team.

But then you don't like this version of Barca, and you are asking for other (pre-Pep) versions, who were as equally as close or far to Pep than Ev/Setien.

To make it short: you are asking for Pep's Barca or Rijkaard's Barca, because majority of other Barca's were either naive or horrible on majority of levels, more or less.

BBZ8800 said:

With that logic, Ev's and especially Setien's football are coming from the same place.

So, basically, Te Amo is asking for "Barca" who were equally as bad or as far from Pep's football than EV and Setien.

For example, do you think that EV's or Setien's Barca is farther from Barca's roots than let's say shitty Barca from Gaspart's era?

Deep down even EV's and Setien's Barca has Barca's DNA in itself.
I mean, Setien is a lover of an original Dream Team.

But then you don't like this version of Barca, and you are asking for other (pre-Pep) versions, who were as equally as close or far to Pep than Ev/Setien.

To make it short: you are asking for Pep's Barca or Rijkaard's Barca, because majority of other Barca's were either naive or horrible on majority of levels, more or less.

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Setien Barca is totally Barca, the same way 2003 Tyson was the same person as the late 80's Tyson, except he was worse quality-wise in every possible way. It is a decline in quality, especially fitness quality, but the style is there. Even under EV the style was still there.

Basically there are two main variations of Barca. A more conservative version, the one you like more (and others too, I bet there are some users who liked 2014-15 Barca more than 2010-11 one), almost looking Bayern-like - with more technique and possession true, but also with some athleticism, tenacity, and ruggedness. And a more Cruyff-inspired variation. The one I like more. But they are more alike between them, than they are different.

Rijkaard / Lucho / Valverde.

Cruyff / Pep / Setien.

Again, this is only stylistic comparison, not quality related. I expect you to make the distinction.

Basically, if EV had the team Lucho did 3 years prior, we would have looked somewhat similar.

Overall, it's a lot easier for this team to look more similar to Lucho/Valverde, than Pep. Simply because the 2nd variation, the total-football inspired one, is incredibly difficult to implement. It's basically very advanced stuff tactically, and it takes a lot of work to develop something like that. Not to mention very good players who are able to translate the ideas on the field (but here we usually do well, because we are known to have great players). And a manager who is a near genius.

te amo barca said:

High workrate from 11 players on the pitch, intense pressing once we lose the ball, higher tempo, desire to win and compete. All of these are absent at the moment.

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Serghei, I quotted this post.
My point was that Barca pre-Pep, except during Rijkaard and here and there in some eras was never a hard working and hard pressing team.

We were always a team of beautiful attack, possession game, shiny individual moves.
And we always had players who are more smart and physically weak than hardworkers.
I mean, Pep himself was our pivot in 90s, he had a physique in the range of Busi and Puig, and Rakitic/Busi looked like speed demons compared to him.

Of course, we always had some basic level of pressing.
But it became good in 2006 and especially under Pep when it has improved to another level.

So, when someone asks for a high pressing from Barca, it can apply mostly on Pep's era.

This is why I have said: go watch Milan 4:0 from 1994 or Dinamo Kiev 7:0 from 97/98.
EV's football and pressing will look like a spaceship compared to those matches.

My point: you are overrating Barcas pre 2005/06.

They weren't much different to EV's/Setien's Barca.
Maybe they were more shiny in attack, but overall they had 100s of flaws.

And they were more shiny in attack because we had younger players and not every single pass had to be aimed at Messi which is killing all the movement and unpredictability.

BBZ8800 said:

Serghei, I quotted this post.
My point was that Barca pre-Pep, except during Rijkaard and here and there in some eras was never a hard working and hard pressing team.

We were always a team of beautiful attack, possession game, shiny individual moves.
And we always had players who are more smart and physically weak than hardworkers.
I mean, Pep himself was our pivot in 90s, he had a physique in the range of Busi and Puig, and Rakitic/Busi looked like speed demons compared to him.

Of course, we always had some basic level of pressing.
But it became good in 2006 and especially under Pep when it has improved to another level.

So, when someone asks for a high pressing from Barca, it can apply mostly on Pep's era.

This is why I have said: go watch Milan 4:0 from 1994 or Dinamo Kiev 7:0 from 97/98.
EV's football and pressing will look like a spaceship compared to those matches.

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I think you're mixing things up a bit. Pressing in general is a more modern concept. It started to develop more as the speed and stamina in the game increased. In past eras, not only Barca, but many teams didn't press much.

Yea, it's true we're more technical than physical, but it's normal for modern teams to press more than teams from the past. It's not something specific to Barcelona. The game evolved physically a lot.

serghei said:

I think you're mixing things up a bit. Pressing in general is a more modern concept. It started to develop more as the speed and stamina in the game increased. In past eras, not only Barca, but many teams didn't press much.

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Ok, we agree.
And then, when a user asks for Barca who presses, I can say: well, we pressed only during Pep.
Because it is a modern thing and only Pep applied it well.

Which again goes back to: I want Pep's Barca, because that was the only Barca ever who worked hard and pressed.

Barca was always a team of semi lazy playmakers who didn't run too much and relied on shiny moves like Maradona, Rivaldo, Mendieta, Riquelme etc.

We were never runners.
We were always smart and technical.

The only problem is that lately we were old, unmotivated and technical.

BBZ8800 said:

Ok, we agree.
And then, when a user asks for Barca who presses, I can say: well, we pressed only during Pep.
Because it is a modern thing and only Pep applied it well.

Which again goes back to: I want Pep's Barca, because that was the only Barca ever who worked hard and pressed.

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Ok, but people are speaking about pressing in the present, when every top team is doing it regularly, except us, Juve, and some defensive teams, usually inspired by Italian style managers, like Atletico and such.

There is a clear connection between intensity, workrate, pressing (which is usually the result of intensity and work rate, coupled with tactics), and success in modern football.

serghei said:

I think you're mixing things up a bit. Pressing in general is a more modern concept. It started to develop more as the speed and stamina in the game increased. In past eras, not only Barca, but many teams didn't press much.

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This is right. The reason pressing is seen much more nowadays is because of how teams play out from the back and pass more in defence. Back when long balls from keepers and defenders was the norm there wasn't as much need for attackers pressing the defenders and full on team pressing.

BBZ8800 said:

Ok, we agree.
And then, when a user asks for Barca who presses, I can say: well, we pressed only during Pep.
Because it is a modern thing and only Pep applied it well.

Which again goes back to: I want Pep's Barca, because that was the only Barca ever who worked hard and pressed.

Barca was always a team of semi lazy playmakers who didn't run too much and relied on shiny moves like Maradona, Rivaldo, Mendieta, Riquelme etc.

We were never runners.
We were always smart and technical.

The only problem is that lately we were old, unmotivated and technical.

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Am I reading this right? BBZ wants Pep's Barca......

Only reason why we don't press is because our legs are gone. Because the team is old and the physical preparation is not at the required parameters. We have a crap defense, with many questionable players individually in many aspects of defending.

But not only us. Look at Bayern. I was shocked at how poor their defenders are individually when caught in 1 vs 1. The great Alphonso Davies was shocking in the first half vs Lyon. Both Alaba and Boateng are defensive liabilities. But you don't see it often, because Bayern has a good pressing system going on and you don't end up having many attacks vs them.

There is a lack of quality defenders in football, and teams use pressing a lot to stop dangerous attacks from happening. Because they know relying on defensive masterclasses to save the day and clear the danger time and time again is a very slippery slope. Great defenders just aren't there anymore. Look at AM, supposedly the greatest current team of that ilk. They have fucking Savic, can't believe they still use him. Man is the definition of average. He's big and that's about it.

Talking about different styles is useless in my opinion as long as you lack in basic football skills. You can also say in 50s players didn't train that much but still played football, so modern training is something new as well, with all it's details, even AI assisted. Food, sleep time, recovery, breathing, everything has become science.
No matter the style, you can play as Atletico or Liverpool or City you need movement, dynamic. We lack this by mile.
So basically we are talking about this or that style or even inventing something new but we play like those teams in the 50s. We'll lose every time.
Tactics doesn't matter as well, 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, hell you can even do something crazy 2-4-3-2-9-18...whatever. It will not work!

serghei said:

Only reason why we don't press is because our legs are gone. Because the team is old and the physical preparation is not at the required parameters. We have a crap defense, with many questionable players individually in many aspects of defending.

But not only us. Look at Bayern. I was shocked at how poor their defenders are individually when caught in 1 vs 1. The great Alphonso Davies was shocking in the first half vs Lyon. Both Alaba and Boateng are defensive liabilities. But you don't see it often, because Bayern has a good pressing system going on and you don't end up having many attacks vs them.

There is a lack of quality defenders in football, and teams use pressing a lot to stop dangerous attacks from happening. Because they know relying on defensive masterclasses to save the day and clear the danger time and time again is a very slippery slope. Great defenders just aren't there anymore. Look at AM, supposedly the greatest current team of that ilk. They have fucking Savic, can't believe they still use him. Man is the definition of average. He's big and that's about it.

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Exactly my point! If we have our defenders 1 vs 1 all the time we'll look slow, stupid, bad...system needs to hide those things. I mean we talk about Pique, is he gone football wise and so on, bu for god sake, one word: SULE. Give me a break!

Fuck I miss him

Gaudi said:

Talking about different styles is useless in my opinion as long as you lack in basic football skills. You can also say in 50s players didn't train that much but still played football, so modern training is something new as well, with all it's details, even AI assisted. Food, sleep time, recovery, breathing, everything has become science.
No matter the style, you can play as Atletico or Liverpool or City you need movement, dynamic. We lack this by mile.
So basically we are talking about this or that style or even inventing something new but we play like those teams in the 50s. We'll lose every time.
Tactics doesn't matter as well, 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, hell you can even do something crazy 2-4-3-2-9-18...whatever. It will not work!

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True. Today, you don't compete past a certain level if you don't present yourself in the same physical shape, give or take, as the opponent. The talk about tactics, technique and such is usually critical after that physical demand is met.

Messigician said:

Fuck I miss him

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I think a change of name is in order..... "Valverdegician"

BBZ8800 said:

Serghei, I quotted this post.
My point was that Barca pre-Pep, except during Rijkaard and here and there in some eras was never a hard working and hard pressing team.

We were always a team of beautiful attack, possession game, shiny individual moves.
And we always had players who are more smart and physically weak than hardworkers.
I mean, Pep himself was our pivot in 90s, he had a physique in the range of Busi and Puig, and Rakitic/Busi looked like speed demons compared to him.

Of course, we always had some basic level of pressing.
But it became good in 2006 and especially under Pep when it has improved to another level.

So, when someone asks for a high pressing from Barca, it can apply mostly on Pep's era.

This is why I have said: go watch Milan 4:0 from 1994 or Dinamo Kiev 7:0 from 97/98.
EV's football and pressing will look like a spaceship compared to those matches.

My point: you are overrating Barcas pre 2005/06.

They weren't much different to EV's/Setien's Barca.
Maybe they were more shiny in attack, but overall they had 100s of flaws.

And they were more shiny in attack because we had younger players and not every single pass had to be aimed at Messi which is killing all the movement and unpredictability.

Click to expand...

Of course, Barca have not largely been an intensely pressing team before Pep. However, football is evolving and tactics too. Fitness and counterpressing are key to today's football. It has been the new meta since 2010. This is how you have to play in order to compete at the highest level, and Barca should adapt. Lucho's Barca was great at pressing. The teams that you like - Bayern and Liverpool are pressing machines. I am asking "Barca's" style to adapt, it is not static and homogeneous.