Quique Setien

JohnN said:

Consider this. You are on a Lada Niva going 150Kph (if it can even reach that) through heavy rain, a steep turn is ahead of you and you can clearly see it. If you slow down to avoid falling down the hill are you a prophet or a reasonable human being?
Your expectations may be whatever, but reality does not care about your expectations. EV was not good enough for this team and that was evident and demostrable.

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Funny, considering i actually owned a Lada in my youth and had similar experience (it can go 150, but downhill and it is one scary ride). But i do not think it is correct in this comparison. Its rather driving Lada in a rally and bunch of people constantly saying you are driving too slow, you dont drift enough and your driving style is boring and you will never win. You are against all odds still in contention for final stage, but then you crash horribly and do that twice in a row in 2 rallies. Now the Lada Rally team fires you and brings in driver known for crazy style, will you win this time or crash already before final stage? After all, its Lada that is getting pretty old, it has its limits.

JohnN said:

Yes, we were top of the league, had a massive advantage in CL semi and at the final of the Copa.. Of course EV wasn't gonna or shouldn't have gotten fired until the Anfield game because results were coming and we were in all competitions. And no one advocated we lose in CL so he gets fired.
But the team was saved again and again and again by Messi and Mats. The overall play deteriorated massively throughout the season. Bad choices were made left and right as far as our starting 11 and tactics were concerned. So, the team was going downhill is a true statement. Except if someone only reads the game results.
In my opinion, he should have gotten fired the day after Anfield.

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So tired of hearing this Mats and Messi story. Messi has saved every manager he has played under (having all time best player in the world will do that) and having a world class goalkeeper is a must if squad wants to win. I think we all know how many trophies Pool won with Karius, Mignolet and others. I still dont get this overall deteriorated massively story, never saw that. I can say that I have seen at least 80% of all Barcelona matches in last 10 years, either live or sometimes later, I have seen all our CL matches, there was no massive decline. We did not beat Liverpool at Camp Nou 3-0 (having also chances for 4-0) after massive decline, we failed mentally and there is big part in Valverdes personality as well as players.

JohnN said:

I am saying, that advocating for the new manager, who was appointed in the middle of the season, just over a week ago, to fail, for the better of the team, is illogical.
But they didn't line up to take the job now, did they? Reality hits us again, because it doesn't care about our beliefs. Even Xavi turned us down. That should be enough evidence that 99% of managers would certainly not love the opportunity to be in charge. Add to that, that 99% of managers are not better than Setien and it goes downhill really fast.

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Exactly who else turned us down? It was only Xavi and thank god for his wisdom for not coming. Also he turned us down not because he does not want to coach here, but because he also understood it was too soon. Only thing stopping from managers to come is contractual obligations, cannot really buy someone from other top team mid-season, so that limits the pool to unemployed coaches or national team coaches. There are big tournaments coming in summer and no top national team coach wants to quit before that. But that does not mean there are no coaches who can come mid-season, Allegri, Wenger, Blanc, Rangnick, Marcelino, Jardim for example. You sure they would all deny the post if that would come? Highly doubtful, another question is if they will suit us.

Richard.H said:

I think the bad thing about all this intense training is that our players are simply past it. For example, I'm sure a team like Liverpool can keep up their intensity throughout the whole season for 90 mins a game. Can you say the same about our players, regardless of how committed they are? It's physically impossible for 31-33 year olds to run as much as the younger teams in Europe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it but it'll require a major squad overhaul if we want to fight for the CL using pressing/one touch/tiki-taka. Domestically I think we should still be favorites for the league and cup.

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There are some older players who are still keyplayers but we shouldn't exaggerate. Suárez has a season-ending injury, so there are just Piqué, Busquets and Messi past their prime regarding the physical part. Alba/Firpo, Lenglet/Umtiti, Roberto/Semedo, Arthur/FDJ and Dembélé/Griezmann/Fati/Pérez are young enough. Alba relies on his pace but I don't expect him to decline like Adriano. That leaves us with Rakitic and Vidal who won't be undisputed starters once Arthur and FDJ are back. Most will agree that Rakitic should be sold and Vidal at least looks as he is still fit enough to stay until summer.

We'll see if players are in a bad physical shape or just lulled to sleep due to Valverde's lethargic approach. They won't be able to fix it during season if they are in a bad physical state. Setién has no experience with playing in 3 competitions. Lack of experience and overplaying starters was probably Valverde's biggest mistake in his first season.

Richard.H said:

I think the bad thing about all this intense training is that our players are simply past it. For example, I'm sure a team like Liverpool can keep up their intensity throughout the whole season for 90 mins a game. Can you say the same about our players, regardless of how committed they are? It's physically impossible for 31-33 year olds to run as much as the younger teams in Europe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it but it'll require a major squad overhaul if we want to fight for the CL using pressing/one touch/tiki-taka. Domestically I think we should still be favorites for the league and cup.

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How old is Milner and Lallana?

George_Costanza said:

How old is Milner and Lallana?

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Milner and Lallana are not regular starters this season for Liverpool

George_Costanza said:

How old is Milner and Lallana?

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How about accumulated fatigue over years?

Messi 878 matches for a club and an NT team
Suarez 745
Rakitic 724
Busquets 707
Pique 695
Vidal 685
Griezz 562
Alba 536

Milner 791
Wijnaldum 559
Henderson 500
Lalana 477
Firmino 474
Salah 451
Mane 407
Van Dijk 397

Barca has 7 player with almost 700 career matches on their back.
Liverpool has 1 player with more than 560 matches on his back.

A million dollar question: who's bodies and stamina are more damaged?

It is not a coincidence that Klopp doesn't have old and drained players in his team where he requires 120% in every match.

120% and 33 years old players don't go hand in hand.

And this part is only about bodies, stamina and a pure physique.
Now add a psychological part where Liverpool's players haven't won a single league title in their careers.
Yet:
Messi 9 league titles, 4 CLs
Busi, Pique 8 league titles, 3 Cls, 2 Euros, 1 World Cup
Alba 5 league titles
Raki 4 league titles

Liverpool: zero league titles, 1 Cl, zero Euros or World cups lol.
Becker and Firmino won Copa America this summer.

So, Lalana's age doesn't tell the whole story compared to Messi and our amigos.

Actually Van Dijk won the Scottish league twice and Wijnaldum won the Dutch league. Just saying

BBZ8800 said:

How about accumulated fatigue over years?

Messi 878 matches for a club and an NT team
Suarez 745
Rakitic 724
Busquets 707
Pique 695
Vidal 685
Griezz 562
Alba 536

Milner 791
Wijnaldum 559
Henderson 500
Lalana 477
Firmino 474
Salah 451
Mane 407
Van Dijk 397

Barca has 7 player with almost 700 career matches on their back.
Liverpool has 1 player with more than 560 matches on his back.

A million dollar question: who's bodies and stamina are more damaged?

It is not a coincidence that Klopp doesn't have old and drained players in his team where he requires 120% in every match.

120% and 33 years old players don't go hand in hand.

And this part is only about bodies, stamina and a pure physique.
Now add a psychological part where Liverpool's players haven't won a single league title in their careers.
Yet:
Messi 9 league titles, 4 CLs
Busi, Pique 8 league titles, 3 Cls, 2 Euros, 1 World Cup
Alba 5 league titles
Raki 4 league titles

Liverpool: zero league titles, 1 Cl, zero Euros or World cups lol.
Becker and Firmino won Copa America this summer.

So, Lalana's age doesn't tell the whole story compared to Messi and our amigos.

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Messi has 10 Ligas. I won't let you undermine him, dawg

LeeRomeno said:

Funny, considering i actually owned a Lada in my youth and had similar experience (it can go 150, but downhill and it is one scary ride). But i do not think it is correct in this comparison. Its rather driving Lada in a rally and bunch of people constantly saying you are driving too slow, you dont drift enough and your driving style is boring and you will never win. You are against all odds still in contention for final stage, but then you crash horribly and do that twice in a row in 2 rallies. Now the Lada Rally team fires you and brings in driver known for crazy style, will you win this time or crash already before final stage? After all, its Lada that is getting pretty old, it has its limits.



So tired of hearing this Mats and Messi story. Messi has saved every manager he has played under (having all time best player in the world will do that) and having a world class goalkeeper is a must if squad wants to win. I think we all know how many trophies Pool won with Karius, Mignolet and others. I still dont get this overall deteriorated massively story, never saw that. I can say that I have seen at least 80% of all Barcelona matches in last 10 years, either live or sometimes later, I have seen all our CL matches, there was no massive decline. We did not beat Liverpool at Camp Nou 3-0 (having also chances for 4-0) after massive decline, we failed mentally and there is big part in Valverdes personality as well as players.



Exactly who else turned us down? It was only Xavi and thank god for his wisdom for not coming. Also he turned us down not because he does not want to coach here, but because he also understood it was too soon. Only thing stopping from managers to come is contractual obligations, cannot really buy someone from other top team mid-season, so that limits the pool to unemployed coaches or national team coaches. There are big tournaments coming in summer and no top national team coach wants to quit before that. But that does not mean there are no coaches who can come mid-season, Allegri, Wenger, Blanc, Rangnick, Marcelino, Jardim for example. You sure they would all deny the post if that would come? Highly doubtful, another question is if they will suit us.

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Agree regarding managers. I have no idea where people get the impression nobody would take the job comes from. This is still the number 1 job in football. It's the elite dream for some of the very best managers out there.

Saying someone like Poch wouldn't take it is like saying someone who makes the tea at Talk talk would refuse the job as CEO of Apple because Apple's share price fell 20% last year.

I would have taken more longer term : Poch , El Muneco Gallardo or Ten haag.

Shorter term would have taken Wenger over Setien in a heartbeat. Even Luis Enrique. But this is what Barca does - hires mediocre managers and expects them to somehow become world class .

As the commentator said on Sunday:

"the players are letargic and not hungry any more, I highly doubt is it that much related to the coach, as the media tries to make us believe"

BBZ8800 said:

How about accumulated fatigue over years?

Messi 878 matches for a club and an NT team
Suarez 745
Rakitic 724
Busquets 707
Pique 695
Vidal 685
Griezz 562
Alba 536

Milner 791
Wijnaldum 559
Henderson 500
Lalana 477
Firmino 474
Salah 451
Mane 407
Van Dijk 397

Barca has 7 player with almost 700 career matches on their back.
Liverpool has 1 player with more than 560 matches on his back.

A million dollar question: who's bodies and stamina are more damaged?

It is not a coincidence that Klopp doesn't have old and drained players in his team where he requires 120% in every match.

120% and 33 years old players don't go hand in hand.

And this part is only about bodies, stamina and a pure physique.
Now add a psychological part where Liverpool's players haven't won a single league title in their careers.
Yet:
Messi 9 league titles, 4 CLs
Busi, Pique 8 league titles, 3 Cls, 2 Euros, 1 World Cup
Alba 5 league titles
Raki 4 league titles

Liverpool: zero league titles, 1 Cl, zero Euros or World cups lol.
Becker and Firmino won Copa America this summer.

So, Lalana's age doesn't tell the whole story compared to Messi and our amigos.

Click to expand...

Accumulative fatigue is something positive, not negative. Our body designed to adapt, the muscles are forced to adapt to a greater workload. It’s a training method that distant runners use to increase running distance. The key is you find a balance between running and recovery. That’s why you see middle-aged marathon runners faster and outperform than 20 somethings. Those runners will tell you “miles in their legs” in reference to the buildup of strength and muscle from years of training.

That's why I can outrun my teenage nephews playing football or running 5k in the park.

Since you like stats. Here is one for you:

According to data released by the running app Strava, middle-aged runners consistently average faster marathon times than their younger rivals, apparently defying the usual rules of athletic performance. Men in the 40-49 age bracket clock an average time of four hours and 17 minutes for a marathon, according to the recent figures. Women in the same age range typically come in at just under the five-hour mark.

In both instances, middle-aged runners outperform runners in their 20s, with fortysomething men and women more than two minutes and one minute faster than their younger peers, respectively. And, the data seems to suggest why: more hours spent pounding the pavements.

A key differential appears to be the hours the two groups are willing to put in. According to Strava, older runners average 28 miles (45km) a week about three months before race-day, compared with 24 miles for those in their 20s.

Richard.H said:

Milner and Lallana are not regular starters this season for Liverpool

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but they were playing regularly in the last two seasons when they reached UCL final twice.

I like what I saw on Sunday, I feel that we are back in good all Pep days, faster ball movement, more control, less counter attacks and this is even without Arthur and Frankie, with these two we'll be pushing possession numbers up to 90%.

Ghostmaster said:

I like what I saw on Sunday, I feel that we are back in good all Pep days, faster ball movement, more control, less counter attacks and this is even without Arthur and Frankie, with these two we'll be pushing possession numbers up to 90%.

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Let's just hope we'll score as well.

Let's see if that possession/control can translate into away games. Not talking about full control, thats impossible. But we were dominated regularly in away games under Valverde.

George_Costanza said:

Accumulative fatigue is something positive, not negative. Our body designed to adapt, the muscles are forced to adapt to a greater workload. It’s a training method that distant runners use to increase running distance. The key is you find a balance between running and recovery. That’s why you see middle-aged marathon runners faster and outperform than 20 somethings. Those runners will tell you “miles in their legs” in reference to the buildup of strength and muscle from years of training.

That's why I can outrun my teenage nephews playing football or running 5k in the park.

Since you like stats. Here is one for you:

According to data released by the running app Strava, middle-aged runners consistently average faster marathon times than their younger rivals, apparently defying the usual rules of athletic performance. Men in the 40-49 age bracket clock an average time of four hours and 17 minutes for a marathon, according to the recent figures. Women in the same age range typically come in at just under the five-hour mark.

In both instances, middle-aged runners outperform runners in their 20s, with fortysomething men and women more than two minutes and one minute faster than their younger peers, respectively. And, the data seems to suggest why: more hours spent pounding the pavements.

A key differential appears to be the hours the two groups are willing to put in. According to Strava, older runners average 28 miles (45km) a week about three months before race-day, compared with 24 miles for those in their 20s.

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I have no idea why are you talking about long runners.
In swimming, peak age is around 22 or something like that, how cruel is that?

Let's go back to Barca and football, and some data and tests:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/tactics-and-analysis/67/post/3056495/soccer-age-curves-show-goalkeepers-and-central-defenders-peak-latest
https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-sports-analytics/jsa0021
https://barcainnovationhub.com/the-influence-of-age-on-footballers-performance/

There is a clear loss of physical performance in players over 30 years compared to younger footballers.
After analysing 10,739 players from the Spanish La Liga during the 2017-2018 season, researchers discovered that the total distance covered by players over 30 is 2% lower than that covered by younger players.
The distance covered, the number of high intensity efforts or sprints and the maximum speed reached also decreased significantly, between 5 and 30%. The loss of performance is especially drastic in those over 35.
This trend was noted across all positions, even though players on the wings (wing backs and wingers) appear to experience a lower loss of performance level.

This evolution of performance has also been observed in players taking part in the German Bundesliga. The total distance covered, the number of sprints (faster than 6.3 m/s for at least 1 second) and the number of fast races (faster than 5.0 m/s for at least 1 second) decreased by 3.4%, 21% and 12% respectively in players over 30 compared with younger footballers.

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As this chart shows, players generally peak between the ages of 25-28, but there are differences by position.

Wingers tend to peak and decline the earliest. Wide attackers under the age of 23 play more minutes than U-23 players at other positions, but wide attackers over 30 are much rarer than strikers or center-backs of an equally advanced age. While most of the curves are well on the downslope by 30, the curve for center-backs by contrast doesn't really begin to decline until 31 or 32.

This suggests a general rule. Players tend to get slower and generally lose athleticism as they age, but they also gain skills and know-how to balance that out. Positions that require the most athleticism are a young person's game, whereas older players will more often be found at positions that most prize guile.

(Ranked from the most to the least "age-sensitive" positions: Wide attacking midfielder, central attacking midfielder, full-back, central midfielder, striker, center-back, goalkeeper.)

It's extremely difficult to play midfield in the modern game without peak athletic skills. At striker or center-back, a player who adds skill and guile may hang on for much long as his athleticism declines. One way players can thus buck their aging trends is by moving positions, just as Javier Mascherano extended his career by moving from central midfield to center-back; likewise, Cristiano Ronaldo subtly moved to a "true" striker role after years as a hybrid winger.

Players can do this by developing other skills to make up for what they lose. Different skills, then, have different aging curves, which can help to predict more specifically how player production will evolve over the course of a career.

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The peak age for professional soccer players is of significant interest to coaches, managers and executives alike. The evidence so far is predominantly anecdotal and subjective. This paper formally analyzes the peak or optimal age in professional men’s soccer using performance ratings of players in the four major top flight leagues of Europe. WhoScored.com ratings from 2010/11 to 2014/15 are used. The analysis is done for all outfield players, separately by field position. In addition to simple age distribution and bivariate approaches, a player fixed effects model that accounts for potential selection bias is estimated. The results show that the average professional soccer player peaks between the ages of 25 and 27. In the preferred models, the average forward peaks at 25, whereas the typical defender peaks at 27. For midfielders, the estimated peak age varies by model but still occurs in the 25–27 age band. Defenders experience relatively minimal curvature in the age-performance relationship. Further results show that peak age may vary directly with ability.

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But even with state-of-the-art fitness regimen, nature will surely have its say on the limits of player performance. This paper has examined one aspect of this, namely the optimal age for performance. The results show that the average player peaks between ages 25 and 27. This represents perhaps a younger and narrower age band than the widely considered peak age of mid to late 20 s. But in line with conventional wisdom, forwards peak earlier than defenders. They most likely peak earlier than midfielders as well, although in one model the two groups are found to peak around the same age (25 years).

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Now, slow down and check the age of these teams again:
33,0 Suarez
33,0 Pique
32,8 Vidal
32,7 Messi
31,10 Rakitic
31,6 Busquets
30,10 Alba

28,6 Van Dijk
28,3 Firmino
27,11 Mane
27,7 Salah
25,10 Robertson
21,3 Alexander