Quique Setien

serghei said:

Even since the first game with Setien, we have seen that the control and creativity is back where it should be. With the deep lying play-makers. Players like De Jong, Busi, Arthur, guys who can find the proper passes and find the best angles. Not with the fullbacks.

What I expected happened. The instant impact of Setien is much reduced time on the ball for fullbacks in dead end situations, and increased centrality through better positioning of the midfield 3, and better synchronizations, as well as better, more clever ways of finding the 3rd man and escaping pressing situations. Harder for opponents to cut off the passing channels in midfield, because now our midfielders readjust and make the other team work more to try to block central progression, which is damn hard to do. These are obvious things, which if you know the foundation of possession football and how it's supposed to work, at least at a basic level, you can see them being improved already.

Now the bad part. To play like that requires energy. Not insane energy, because better positioning means faster access on the ball by default, but more energy than we are currently able to put into a game. It is undeniable at this point that a main reason of the CL collapses in recent seasons has been down to the poor fitness and match preparation. This also plays in hand with the mentality part. Being prepared and fit, means being confident. Being confident means being mentally solid. But when you prepare poorly, and you're thrown in the deep end against teams who run more, press more, attack more, want more to win, that's where the panic mode sets in. It's a direct result of realizing you have no control, and in the end all you do is try to hang on and survive. That has been the story in the last 3 years.

We have a long way back and I hope the players are ready for what this means in terms of dedication and effort. This needs to be THE WAY forward. No two ways about it.

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Exactly.

Why not just wait and see if this training regime is going to be too hard on the players and detrimental to results? Oh wait that would require a level head my bad.

Rory said:

Why not just wait and see if this training regime is going to be too hard on the players and detrimental to results? Oh wait that would require a level head my bad.

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The same applies:
1. for positive estimations of how we will play, a coach, tactics
2. positive estimations of Fati's or Puig's career. Someone could reply: why not just wait 10 years to see how will Fati's career develop instead of commenting now?

This is forum.
People are commenting and giving their estimations and views about everything.
Young players, older players, current players, transfer targets, current coaches, possible future coaches.

I mean, we could stop commenting on any topic and just wait and see how will it actually develop in a few years.
Does that sound like fun?

BBZ8800 said:

I have no idea why are you talking about long runners.
In swimming, peak age is around 22 or something like that, how cruel is that?

Let's go back to Barca and football, and some data and tests:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/tactics-and-analysis/67/post/3056495/soccer-age-curves-show-goalkeepers-and-central-defenders-peak-latest
https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-sports-analytics/jsa0021
https://barcainnovationhub.com/the-influence-of-age-on-footballers-performance/









Now, slow down and check the age of these teams again:
33,0 Suarez
33,0 Pique
32,8 Vidal
32,7 Messi
31,10 Rakitic
31,6 Busquets
30,10 Alba

28,6 Van Dijk
28,3 Firmino
27,11 Mane
27,7 Salah
25,10 Robertson
21,3 Alexander

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Well, footballers do run on the pitch, they don't swim, and a swimmer does require a huge amount of physical strength. The article you are basing your statistics used WhoScored.com ratings! They didn't use scientific methodology to base their assumptions. Assuming they are right, a 2% decrease in distance covered by 30+ years old players is nothing really. And what you highlighted about speed is for players above 35 years old. How does this apply to our players given non of them are above 35 years old? Peak age is changing as we advance as humans, and now we see athletes continuing to break the age barriers so successfully. Also, physical changes are not the only obstacle that comes with age. People lack the motivation to work out as they age and I think this is the biggest issue with this squad, hence Milner outran our midfield in UCL. I just hope you apply the reasoning behind your posts and not some unrelated stats just for the sake of argument.

George_Costanza said:

Well, footballers do run on the pitch, they don't swim, and a swimmer does require a huge amount of physical strength. The article you are basing your statistics used WhoScored.com ratings! They didn't use scientific methodology to base their assumptions. Assuming they are right, a 2% decrease in distance covered by 30+ years old players is nothing really. And what you highlighted about speed is for players above 35 years old. How does this apply to our players given non of them are above 35 years old? Peak age is changing as we advance as humans, and now we see athletes continuing to break the age barriers so successfully. Also, physical changes are not the only obstacle that comes with age. People lack the motivation to work out as they age and I think this is the biggest issue with this squad, hence Milner outran our midfield in UCL. I just hope you apply the reasoning behind your posts and not some unrelated stats just for the sake of argument.

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I posted 3 articles, you can find 1000 similar articles and studies on Google.

Further, it said 5-30% loss for players aged over 30:
La Liga: The distance covered, the number of high intensity efforts or sprints and the maximum speed reached also decreased significantly, between 5% and 30%
Bundesliga, players aged over 30:
Distance covered per match: 3,4% decrease. That is 340 meters per 10km.
So, if we field Messi (who runs 3-5 kms less than an average footballer), 33 years old Suarez, 33 years old Pique, 32 years old Vidal, 31 years old Busi and Raki, 30 years old Alba, on average that will be:
3-5 kms lost on Messi
350 meters lost by Suarez
350 meters lost by Pique
350 meters lost by Raki, Busi, Vidal, Alba

Only on these 7 players, you will lose at minimum 5-7 kms per match against ANY opponent.
Regardless of EV, Klopp or anyone.

Number of sprints: 21% decrease

When our team plays against ANY team (like Slavia Prague), we are outran.
Then imagine what happens when you face a team of robots named Liverpool where Klopp was buying 11 carbon copies who can run way more and way faster than average footballers.

So:
1. Klopp is buying players who naturally have better physical skills, pace and stamina than our guys, where triangles and a first touch is the first key skill at which we are looking at
2. Klopp is training players better than our coaches
3. Klopp's players are way younger and they can run more
4. Klopp's players have an extra advntage in motivation since they didn't won trophies in their career, so they can force themselves more easily to 120% in every match, unlike Messi who won 10 La Ligas and who sulks at 0:1 and stops running, or Busi/Raki/Alba/Pique and friends.

A new coach can improve in a point 2: where we will train better than under EV.
But no one can fix points 1: (their players naturally have better physical skills than our guys), No3 (their players are way younger) and No4 (their players are more motivated due to winning shit in their careers).

This is the most complicated situation in Barca's history since we never had such a successful team.
And today, we are paying a price for that success in terms of having an old and drained team who can be fixed only in one way: SELL all amigos.
But that requires years of hit and miss transfers and replacing players, which surely won't go well with Barto and his directors (Robert Fernandez, Abidal and similar).

So, you can:
1. not turn the page and have what we have today
2. or turn the page and then, the most likely have several years of even worse results until all pieces of a puzzle will click after a loooot of hit and miss attempts (a new president, new sporting directors, several new coaches, 10s of hit and miss transfers and billions spent).

BBZ8800 said:

The same applies:
1. for positive estimations of how we will play, a coach, tactics
2. positive estimations of Fati's or Puig's career. Someone could reply: why not just wait 10 years to see how will Fati's career develop instead of commenting now?

This is forum.
People are commenting and giving their estimations and views about everything.
Young players, older players, current players, transfer targets, current coaches, possible future coaches.

I mean, we could stop commenting on any topic and just wait and see how will it actually develop in a few years.
Does that sound like fun?

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Because it's been one week? I'm not saying let's wait till the end of the season. Literally lets just see this time next month if we're not physically capable. If that is the case then we can say it's down to Setien's training regime. But to say things with such certainty is wrong to do. It seems like people are saying this is an absolute fact as opposed to an opinion and it's so annoying to read people's "opinions" that are framed in this way. It comes across as snooty and know it all.

Rory said:

Because it's been one week? I'm not saying let's wait till the end of the season. Literally lets just see this time next month if we're not physically capable. If that is the case then we can say it's down to Setien's training regime. But to say things with such certainty is wrong to do. It seems like people are saying this is an absolute fact as opposed to an opinion and it's so annoying to read people's "opinions" that are framed in this way. It comes across as snooty and know it all.

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I dont even think our core is that old (or their age is that relevant).
1) Piques age is irrelevant, hes not part of the pressing unit (just occasionally) - thats why centrebacks generally age the best
2) DM has a more positional nature as well, so Busquets (or Rakitic if played there) are fine
3) Messi is our only real weakness, but hes more or less excused+hes binding other players.
4) Suarez is out
5) Rest of our players are young enough for a decent pressing game

I honestly think we are 1-3 transfers away from having a great (or very good) team.


@BBZ: You made your peace regarding Rakitic?

Some of the key players are indeed old, but the issue is that we have had managers who either requested the wrong players, didnt't develop anyone or both. When you have a top manager only then you can proceed to rebuild the team. Until then you only waste money.

mc_lovin said:

@BBZ: You made your peace regarding Rakitic?

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Yes.
Getting older, slower, weaker in lots of aspects.

Even though, longterm, I have faith only in Frenkie from a 4 current youngsters (Frenkie, Arthur, Puig, Alena).

But let's not go into that topic again.

mc_lovin said:

I dont even think our core is that old (or their age is that relevant).
1) Piques age is irrelevant, hes not part of the pressing unit (just occasionally) - thats why centrebacks generally age the best
2) DM has a more positional nature as well, so Busquets (or Rakitic if played there) are fine
3) Messi is our only real weakness, but hes more or less excused+hes binding other players.
4) Suarez is out
5) Rest of our players are young enough for a decent pressing game

I honestly think we are 1-3 transfers away from having a great (or very good) team.


@BBZ: You made your peace regarding Rakitic?

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Don't know where this temptation for reductions comes from.

a) Who is to say Suarez is out? He has contract till 2021. Likely only the Chinese would pay to have him otherwise and if nobody does, he'll want to stay and get his wage. In which case the most you can do is bench him in favour of well performing Griezmann and filling in the LW hole.
b) Messi is old, plays every game and cannot press for the entirety of the season. Never an excuse when it comes to pressing as a unit that you're aspiring to be.
c) While Busquets and Pique don't have to press, when the opponent has the ball they will have to chase when they get through. Liability one way or another.

There's no justifying any of them.

And yes, several transfers and you'll be a good team. You'll spend a lot and make little though so best hope they're the right names.

@BBZ
I hear your argument conveying the opposite view, and i don't discard it, but as regards to the suitability of Setien i would be more generous than you for the following reason:

There have been several coaches (clear minority, but still existent) that coach mid-table or 2nd-3rd division teams and try to play offensive football. Most fail, look at Paco Jemez for example. It is much easier to fail in such an attempt, when you have much inferior squad compared to your opponents. But, Setien is the only coach -to my knowledge - who did not fail in such an attempt with inferior squads. He manage to train a LaLiga team after successes with 2nd division teams, and both at Las Palmas and Betis he overachieved given the squad at his disposal. For that reason only, he 'earned' the right to coach Barca, not only because of his philosophy. It's true that he has no experience with big names and egos, and he will be tested on that front

[tw]1219685111702196224[/tw]

Get paid tens of millions per year and complain about training in the wind brehs.

GOATien really showing these fools no mercy.

[tw]1219686390247624711[/tw]

Setien training program got these fools SHOOK.

Devils said:

[tw]1219685111702196224[/tw]

Get paid tens of millions per year and complain about training in the wind brehs.

GOATien really showing these fools no mercy.

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Yes yes.. I love it. He is not a yes man.

Pique is a fucking cancer.
Never has been an adult, always needed a babysitter beside him.
The day this cunt becomes our president is our doomsday.