Quique Setien

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

serghei said:
Lol, for Rakitic to do something going forward he needs to break the press. Which almost never happens. Arthur was not benched because he was coming from an injury lol. He was benched because he was worse than Rakitic defensively (in the definition of defense that managers like Valverde, Simeone, Mourinho, Allegri, Conte have).

You can't say Arthur being benched was a mistake and then also say the team was not setting up defensively. It's just a logical fracture. Only way you bench Arthur for Rakitic is if you want to approach the game in a defensive minded manner.

Same vs Roma really. Only reason for why you'd play Roberto instead of Dembele is if you want to approach the game thinking more about the defense, than about exploiting space and scoring goals on the counter.

In both games, Valverde made decisions which can only be explained by him wanting more defensive solidity in those games, at the expense of us creating and scoring chances. Or keeping the ball under pressure, in the case of Liverpool. Which is basically needed to create chances AND protect the defense from dangerous turnovers (which is how Liverpool scored 1st and 2nd goals).

The result of his plan? 0-7.

Rakitic like it or not has more attacking impact than Arthur that season who was not 100% fit.

Barca did not set up to do anything like Simeone did you need to watch it again.

They tried to score and got 4/5 men forward when could.

They played a 433, tried to push a high line when got chance and Alba as ever was used in attack as much as possible.

Before and after game they are discussing trying to push up more.

The first goal came from Barca pushing up half way in own half when Matip switches and Alba is getting back in position from pushing up. Nothing like Simeone approach.

Few minutes later Liverpool almost get in from Barca defending high up.

Multiple times Barca push 3/4 even 5 men forward when get the chance and Alba is advanced as ever.

They would have been better off setting up to play more defensively and to stop Liverpool and in formation got chances at end of first leg.

Watch the first 20-25minutes of below and you will see Barca...playing 433, pushing up when have ball, trying to commit men forward in way Atletico did not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMLcAl62F3Q&t=459s

serghei · May 23, 2020

Lol, we're talking about the Liverpool game, not some game vs Granada. Under the conditions of the Liverpool game, Arthur is the more creative, more offensive solution, simply because he is more likely to resist being pressed and find a good pass. Only thing Rakitic does when pressed is kick the ball, lose it and foul someone, or put a teammate in trouble. Like what he did to Alba for the 2nd goal. But hey, he can tackle, he can dispossess a Liverpool player, he can be better defensively on crosses. That's why he played. Because he is the better player in what is the conservatist classic definition of defense (tackles, clearances, things like that).

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

serghei said:
Lol, we're talking about the Liverpool game, not some game vs Granada. Under the conditions of the Liverpool game, Arthur is the more creative, more offensive solution, simply because he is more likely to resist being pressed and find a good pass. Only thing Rakitic does when pressed is kick the ball, get rid of it, or put a teammate in trouble. Like what he did to Alba for the 2nd goal. But hey, he can tackle, he can dispossess a Liverpool player, he can be better defensively on crosses. That's why he played. Because he is the better player in what is the conservatism classic definition of defense (tackles, clearances, things like that).

Yes and the Liverpool game Barca set up nothing like Simeone.

They tried to push up more, played 433, had Alba attacking as much as any other game,

They were not sitting deep in shape as a tactic to draw Liverpool on and plug gaps... but should have.

Were just pegged back to much as couldnt handle the intensity.

Go bck and watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMLcAl62F3Q&t=459s

Do you think they were discussing trying to push up more just for the cameras?

Arthur should have played more minutes but Rakitic was more impactful player going forward so no real argument it was a huge defensive choice.

serghei · May 23, 2020

JamDav1982 said:
Yes and the Liverpool game Barca set up nothing like Simeone.

They tried to push up more, played 433, had Alba attacking as much as any other game,

They were not sitting deep in shape as a tactic to draw Liverpool on and plug gaps... but should have.

Were just pegged back to much as couldnt handle the intensity.

Go bck and watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMLcAl62F3Q&t=459s

Do you think they were discussing trying to push up more just for the cameras?

Makes no sense what you're saying, because of the Arthur - Rakitic thing. If you plan to play out, exploit spaces, pass under pressure, there's no way you use Rakitic instead of Arthur. Not even Valverde is that dumb.

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

serghei said:
Makes no sense what you're saying, because of the Arthur - Rakitic thing. If you plan to play out, exploit spaces, pass under pressure, there's no way you use Rakitic instead of Arthur. Not even Valverde is that dumb.

Roberto over Semedo not an attacking decision?

Coutinho at LW in a 3 not an attacking decision?

Rakitic is not the more overly defensive player to Arthur. That makes sens and Arthur was not fully fit.

Your argument Barca played Simeone style makes no sense.

Barca played a different formation, tried to get on ball more, commited men forward and playeda higher line when could.

They were pinned back to often as Liverpools insensity meant they were forced back into deep situations that team was not set up to cope with too often.

Liverpool had 71% v Atletico and 34 attempts (including ET).

Liverpool had 45% v Barca and 10 attempts.

Clearly teams did not set up in same way. Just watch it back. Clear as day Barca tried to commit to get a goal when could and pushed up.

Alba was like a 5th attacker as he always was.

serghei · May 23, 2020

JamDav1982 said:
Rakitic is not the more overly defensive player to Arthur. That makes sense.

Your argument Barca played Simeone style makes no sense.

Barca played a different formation, tried to get on ball more, commited men forward and playeda higher line when could.

They were pinned back to often as Liverpoolsi insensity meant they were forced back into deep situations that team was not set up to cope with too often.

Liverpool had 71% v Atletico and 34 attempts (including ET).

Liverpool had 45% v Barca and 10 attempts.

Clearly teams did not set up in same way. Just watch it back. Clear as day Barca tried to commit to get a goal when could and pushed up.

Rakitic is the better defensive player to Arthur. And a lot worse in build-up when the conditions of play imply there is pressure and pressing on the ball carrier. As in that is Arthur's no1 strenght, and Rakitic worst weakness. That's just not debatable at all.

We looked more attacking because we have better individual players than Atletico. Players like Messi.

You think that if Simeone coached Barcelona, we'd have 2 shots all game and 30% possession? :lol:

. The players also influence how the game looks, which is obvious.

His plan was to give the ball to Messi. Most decisions outside that were defensive. Surprise, surprise, he was so offensively oriented, that he only put Malcom instead of Rakitic AFTER Liverpool scored the 4th goal. Same as his infamous sub with Dembele after Roma scored for 3-0.

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

serghei said:
Rakitic is the better defensive player to Arthur. And a lot worse in build-up when the conditions of play imply there is pressure and pressing on the ball carrier. As in that is Arthur's no1 strenght, and Rakitic worst weakness. That's just not debatable at all.

We looked more attacking because we have better individual players than Atletico. Players like Messi.

You think that if Simeone coached Barcelona, we'd have 2 shots all game and 30% possession? . The players also influence how the game looks, which is obvious.

Your point that Barca played like Simeone is woeful.

They didnt try to. They tried to score. They tried to get on ball more and committed men forward.

Watch it again.

Arthur should have played more as he deals with press better. Rakitic is better player in final third. Not a 'defensive' decision to chose him.

Not a defensive decision to choose Roberto or Coutinho either in that formation.

Barca approached the game almost in a polar opposite to what Simeone did.

Go for it an tell me how Barca approached it like simeone. Specific tactical examples as you dont seem to be adding anything to that or responding to me showing you how they didnt.

serghei · May 23, 2020

JamDav1982 said:
Your point that Barca played like Simeone is woeful.

They didnt try to. They tried to score. They tried to get on ball more and committed men forward.

Watch it again.

Arthur should have played more as he deals with press better. Rakitic is better player in final third. Not a 'defensive' decision to chose him.

Not a defensive decision to choose Roberto or Coutinho either in that formation.

Barca approached the game almost in a polar opposite to what Simeone did.

Go for it an tell me how Barca approached it like simeone. Specific tactical examples as you dont seem to be adding anything to that or responding to me showing you how they didnt.

At best, there are conflicting decisions supporting either approach. Maybe he didn't know what the fuck he was doing.

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

serghei said:
At best, there are conflicting decisions supporting either approach. Maybe he didn't know what the fuck he was doing.

How did Barca set up like Simeone tactically in your opinion?

They pushed a higher line, got on ball more, played a different formation when watch both.

The players fucked up as much as Valverde if not more.

In a game where you have 55% of the ball and create 8 chances to their 10 should not lose 4-0 even if could have approached the game better.

Vilarrubi · May 23, 2020

JamDav1982 said:
Roberto over Semedo not an attacking decision?

Coutinho at LW in a 3 not an attacking decision?

Nope.

The choice of Roberto over Semedo wasn?t an attacking one. Same with Coutinho at LW. There was nothing about 4-3-3 which was intentionally attacking either.

He played the EXACT same formation and players we played at Camp Nou where we were lucky to get 3-0 with Liverpool unlucky not to score. He went to Anfield thinking ?if we won 3-0 with this formation we won?t lose 4-0 with this formation?... that much was clear from the way we played, Liverpool did pen us in, but there was complete lack of urgency from the players every time Liverpool scored.. They genuinely thought that there was no way Liverpool will score 4 and that is down to the manager, he should have instructed them differently and made the obvious changes like Arthur for Rakitić and Semedo for Roberto. Absolute doylum of a manager.

serghei · May 23, 2020

JamDav1982 said:
How did Barca set up like Simeone tactically in your opinion?

They pushed a higher line, got on ball more, played a different formation when watch both.

The players fucked up as much as Valverde if not more.

In a game where you have 55% of the ball and create 8 chances to their 10 should not lose 4-0 even if could have approached the game better.

They sat deep, especially in the 2nd half, made no offensive subs when it was clear it was vital that we score (Malcom for Rakitic sub should have been made after Liverpool's 2nd goal, starting from Rakitic's mistake), selected players more for their defensive skills than for creating chances.

He made several big mistakes in that game. Players as a collective and manager are equally to blame. But as far as 1 person having the biggest share of blame related to Roma and Liverpool disasters, that's easily Valverde.

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

serghei said:
They sat deep, especially in the 2nd half, made no offensive subs when it was clear it was vital that we score (Malcom for Rakitic sub should have been made after Liverpool's 2nd goal, starting from Rakitic's mistake), selected players more for their defensive skills than for creating chances.

He made several big mistakes in that game. Players as a collective and manager are equally to blame. But as far as 1 person having the biggest share of blame related to Roma and Liverpool disasters, that's easily Valverde.

They did not sit deep nearly as much as Atletico hence the 55% possession and the first goal coming from pushing higher up and Alba coming back from attacking.

There are videos at HT of EV telling them to push up even more.... was this just for cameras or did players ignore him in your opinion if he was instructing them to sit deep?

If that is it then it shows they really did not approach the game like Atletico at all.

Clearly the tried to score and committed 4/5 men forward when could. Came close to scoring a few times.

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

Vilarrubi said:
Nope.

The choice of Roberto over Semedo wasn?t an attacking one. Same with Coutinho at LW. There was nothing about 4-3-3 which was intentionally attacking either.

He played the EXACT same formation and players we played at Camp Nou where we were lucky to get 3-0 with Liverpool unlucky not to score. He went to Anfield thinking ?if we won 3-0 with this formation we won?t lose 4-0 with this formation?... that much was clear from the way we played, Liverpool did pen us in, but there was complete lack of urgency from the players every time Liverpool scored.. They genuinely thought that there was no way Liverpool will score 4 and that is down to the manager, he should have instructed them differently and made the obvious changes like Arthur for Rakitić and Semedo for Roberto. Absolute doylum of a manager.

Yes they were attacking choices unless you believe Roberto is better defender than Semedo.

Yes they started with same formation that beat Liverpoool 3-0 and fancied it to score again when should have set up more defensively.

Roberto played fine and about only defender that did his job that night for most part. Semedo also had a howler when Barca put out by Roma year before so not too much wrong there.

serghei · May 23, 2020

Also, after conceding the 3-0 goal, did Valverde sub Malcom or Arthur to try to hurt Liverpool a bit as the pressure was huge at that time and Liverpool were on a high? No. He subbed... check this... Semedo for Coutinho. :lol:

. A fullback for an attacking midfielder.

A normal change for a non-defensive manager is Malcom for Coutinho after the 3-0 goal. Vital. Get someone to run in behind the Liverpool's high line. And Arthur to keep the ball a bit as Liverpool were causing us turnover after turnover in midfield. He put them on after the 3-0 goal, and the 4-0 goal (Malcom). :lol:

. Shambolic.

Player selection and subs for Valverde are some of the worst I've ever seen at this level. In both Roma and Liverpool away games.

JamDav1982 · May 23, 2020

serghei said:
Also, after conceding the 3-0 goal, did Valverde sub Malcom or Arthur to try to hurt Liverpool a bit as the pressure was huge at that time and Liverpool were on a high? No. He subbed... check this... Semedo for Coutinho. . A fullback for an attacking midfielder.

Semedo for Coutinho and back to a 442 was not that bad and it was similar sub that seen Barca go 3-0 up in first leg.

Should have subbed on Arthur earlier but the two are not linked.

You giving him all the credit for that?

The one argument about them playing like a Simeone side is 'they sat deep at times'. Great stuff.

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