Quique Setien

MTL_Barca

MTL_Barca

Well-known member
Messi definitely is part of the problem as well, but on the other hand the team would be even more disastrous without him.

Suarez isn't any less of a tactical burden these days tbh, i mean he has his position instead of wandering around but he still can't work or run like he used to. At least Messi doesn't destroy every other attack once he touches the ball. Suarez, Rakitic, Busquets, Vidal etc this team would be static and slow as hell anyway, doesn't matter if it's Messi or Salah or Sancho or whoever else on "RW".

By the time everything is sorted out (if it even happens at all) Messi will be on the verge of retirement anyway because any form of rebuild most likely won't start until 2021 and from there on it will still take at least 1-2 full seasons because half the starting lineup is 30+ at this point.
 
Batistuta9

Batistuta9

New member
MTL_Barca said:
Messi definitely is part of the problem as well, but on the other hand the team would be even more disastrous without him.

Suarez isn't any less of a tactical burden these days tbh, i mean he has his position instead of wandering around but he still can't work or run like he used to. At least Messi doesn't destroy every other attack once he touches the ball. Suarez, Rakitic, Busquets, Vidal etc this team would be static and slow as hell anyway, doesn't matter if it's Messi or Salah or Sancho or whoever else on "RW".

By the time everything is sorted out (if it even happens at all) Messi will be on the verge of retirement anyway because any form of rebuild most likely won't start until 2021 and from there on it will still take at least 1-2 full seasons because half the starting lineup is 30+ at this point.
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That's what I was trying to explain to serghei. Even though Messi has his flaws, If you swap Messi for any other player in the world, we would probably do worse than we are now. You can't say that for any other Barca player apart from Ter stegen. This means the team is the problem
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Batistuta9 said:
That's what I was trying to explain to serghei. Even though Messi has his flaws, If you swap Messi for any other player in the world, we would probably do worse than we are now. You can't say that for any other Barca player apart from Ter stegen. This means the team is the problem
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It works both ways.

Take Messi out of this team and it would be worse as it is a team built to allow him freedom and game is slowed down to suit Messi as well. Results in poor team structure and moments of genius from Messi to open game up too often.

The team plays as it does due to being built to Messi and the other older amigos even if squad quality could be better.

Personally I find the way the team and Messi played in second half as bad as it gets.

The team slowed right down and Messi/Suarez stayed up park and did not play as part of a unit. They barely offered options off ball, barely pressed with team, rarely tried to link up game with others.

Messi is helping create Messidependcia and cant see how that is avoided with way he plays now.

Most likely needs to be 4312 with the amigos gone but I dont think Messi wants that and would not be surprised if Messi and Suarez still think they are part of top attacking unit that will get Suarez to second top scorer for Barca ever.

I would rather see Messi and all amigos leave if the alternative is this shit for another couple years due to power they hold.
 
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Batistuta9

Batistuta9

New member
JamDav1982 said:
It works both ways.

Take Messi out of this team and it would be worse as it is a team built to allow him freedom and game is slowed down to suit Messi as well. Results in poor team structure and moments of genius from Messi to open game up too often.

The team plays as it does due to being built to Messi and the other older amigos even if squad quality could be better.

Personally I find the way the team and Messi played in second half as bad as it gets.

The team slowed right down and Messi/Suarez stayed up park and did not play as part of a unit. They barely offered options off ball, barely pressed with team, rarely tried to link up game with others.

Messi is helping create Messidependcia and cant see how that is avoided with way he plays now.

Most likely needs to be 4312 with the amigos gone but I dont think Messi wants that and would not be surprised if Messi and Suarez still think they are part of top attacking unit that will get Suarez to second top scorer for Barca ever.

I would rather see Messi and all amigos leave if the alternative is this shit for another couple years due to power they hold.
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There is a reason the team played like that in the second half and it wasn't to suit Messi. Setien came out and said the players are tired as it's only been 72 hours since the last game.

You keep on saying Messi wouldn't let his amigos leave like he is the sporting director. Why is he pushing for lautaro to come? If he has so much power, why did griezmann come? He was against that transfer, which was the right call. If only this stupid board listened to him. He didn't want Arthur to get swapped for pjanic.

Do you really think that if the board replaced all the so called amigos, Messi would leave? The board are delusional. They actually think the other older players are still the best. If some of the transfers the board made worked out, we wouldn't be reliant on these older players now. Blame the board for the players in the team, not messi
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Batistuta9 said:
There is a reason the team played like that in the second half and it wasn't to suit Messi. Setien came out and said the players are tired as it's only been 72 hours since the last game.

You keep on saying Messi wouldn't let his amigos leave like he is the sporting director. Why is he pushing for lautaro to come? If he has so much power, why did griezmann come? He was against that transfer, which was the right call. If only this stupid board listened to him. He didn't want Arthur to get swapped for pjanic.

Do you really think that if the board replaced all the so called amigos, Messi would leave? The board are delusional. They actually think the other older players are still the best. If some of the transfers the board made worked out, we wouldn't be reliant on these older players now. Blame the board for the players in the team, not messi
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The team allows Messi and Suarez to play as did yesterday and it does suit them and allows them to play as individuals outwith team as unit. Happened all the time under EV as well.

You are claiming Messi does not have power by pointing out he wants Lautaro? Or that he didnt want Griezmann?

Griezmann deal by all accounts seemed to have been done by time amigos started pressuring board to sign Neymar and Neymar had said he wanted the move and Messi was said to be in favour of Griezmann the prior year anyway.

There is nothing to suggest Messi wanted Arthur to stay.

Yes I think if Barca said tomorrow that Pique, Alba, Busi and Suarez time were up there is a real possibility Messi leaves next summer due to it.

The board are terrified of the amigos and the amigos are delusional as it gets that they are good enough and the style of play the team has a result can compete with the top teams.
 
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Batistuta9

Batistuta9

New member
JamDav1982 said:
The team allows Messi and Suarez to play as did yesterday and it does suit them and allows them to play as individuals outwith team as unit. Happened all the time under EV as well.

You are claiming Messi does not have power by pointing out he wants Lautaro? Or that he didnt want Griezmann?

Griezmann deal by all accounts seemed to have been done by time amigos started pressuring board to sign Neymar and Neymar had said he wanted the move and Messi was said to be in favour of Griezmann the prior year anyway.

There is nothing to suggest Messi wanted Arthur to stay.

Yes I think if Barca said tomorrow that Pique, Alba, Busi and Suarez time were up there is a real possibility Messi leaves next summer due to it.
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Lautaro is a CF, if he came, he would play in his BFF Suarez's position. Doesn't make sense if he just wants to play with his amigos.

Just because he wants someone to come, it doesn't mean it will happen. He can only give a recommendation.

Honestly, we need a brand new team. With the squad we have, we actually need some of these older players to play like pique and alba. The board have wasted 400m on 3 transfers. We haven't made a good transfer in so many years.

You are saying there is a possibility he leaves next year if the amigos are sold. Imo there is a possibility he leaves, even if they are all still here. It will depend how competitive the team will be
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Batistuta9 said:
Lautaro is a CF, if he came, he would play in his BFF Suarez's position. Doesn't make sense if he just wants to play with his amigos.

Just because he wants someone to come, it doesn't mean it will happen. He can only give a recommendation.

Honestly, we need a brand new team. With the squad we have, we actually need some of these older players to play like pique and alba. The board have wasted 400m on 3 transfers. We haven't made a good transfer in so many years.

You are saying there is a possibility he leaves next year if the amigos are sold. Imo there is a possibility he leaves, even if they are all still here. It will depend how competitive the team will be
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Why do you think Barca are willing to pay such a high fee for Lautaro? Dreaming if think that is not down in large part to influence of Messi wanting him there.

We will see what happens if Lautaro arrives and if Suarez has not decided his time is up but I would wager that Suarez still plays far more than should and would be the starter ultimately.

He could leave either way and if he does and amigos also do with Barca starting again then so be it.
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
KingLeo10 said:
I know you're trolling but you do realize that Setien is on course to exceed EV's points won from the same amount of games this season. It just so happens that RM is on course for a near 90 point season while they were mid to high 70s the previous two, where EV also had a superior version of Messi (18/19 in particular). Neither one is a good manager for us. Not sure why people need to prop up EV when he was just about as insipid as ol' Quique.
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I wrote before:
1. EV was winning all El classicos
That is already a difference between 86:86 points and 86:80 or 80:86 points (Barca/Real).
If you are losing El Classicos, you are boosting RM's points.

Further in his first season, he had 11 wins in the first 12 matches, plus El Classico win.
That's a double blow to a RM.
1) winning points in El Classicos, meaning that their total points will be lower by 6 points
2) and killing their morale with winning in El Classicos and having a 10-point lead early on

So, RM might have been weaker that year, but one of the reasons why they were weaker is=Barca.
We were winning all of our matches early on, we won El Classicos and we killed their morale and after that they turned to shit since they couldn't catch us.

On the other hand, if our team plays like shit, if we are losing points left and right and if we are losing El classicos, we are boosting RM's morale and motivation.

Check Barca from 2015.
We resurrected because we made changes, but we were still "in" competitions.
On the other hand, imagine if we were 15 points behind RM in January and if were KOd from a CL group stage.
Do you think that a magic in spring 2015 would have happened in that case?
No.

So, it is kinda way too simplified to look at RM's number of total points without asking: WHY?
And the answer is not as simple as: they sucked.
I mean, they won 4 CLs in those 5 years.

To some extent, EV managed to kill the morale of mentally extremely strong team.
How?
This way:
Betis 2:0
Alaves 2:0
Espanyol 5:0
Getafe 2:1
Eibar 6:1
Girona 3:0
Las Palmas 3:0
Atletico 1:1**
Malaga 2:0
Bilbao 2:0
Sevilla 2:1
Leganes 3:0
Valencia 1:1**
Celta 2:2**
Villareal 2:0
Deportivo 4:0
Real 3:0 at Bernabeu
Levante 3:0
Sociedad 4:2
Betis 5:0
Alaves 2:1
21 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws=57 points out of 63 possible.

On the other hand, after 21 rounds, Real had after 21 rounds:
Valencia 2:2
Levante 1:1
Betis 0:1
Girona 1:2
Atletico 0:0
Bilbao 0:0
Barcelona 0:3 at home
Celta 2:2
Villareal 0:1
Levante 2:2
= 21 matches, 11 wins, 6 draws, 5 defeats. 39 points. Weaker head to head than Barca.

It was February 3rd and EV had 18 points advantage over RM.
Do you think that RM's players had any morale left after that?

Also, look at their last 8 rounds, when they were totally without any morale and just saved energy for a CL:
Atletico 1:1
Bilbao 1:1
Barcelona 2:2
Sevilla 2:3
Villareal 2:2

They were losing points against EVERYONE.
Yet a few weeks later, they won their 4th CL in 5 years.
Against mighty Klopp's Liverpool.

How is that possible?
Real is 17 points behind EV's Barca, yet they won a CL 2 Months BEFORE EV's appointment and again 2 weeks after La Liga's season 2017/18.

When you play bad, you are giving chances to your opponents to resurrect instead of finishing him for good.
Ev finished Real early on in both seasons with winning El Classicos and with winning against smaller teams.
In 2018/19, we weren't as good against small teams as in 2017/18, but we killed Real on both occasions with:
5:1 in October and 0:1 in early March on Bernabeu.

On the other hand, what happened in THIS season?
1. we were shit against smaller teams and we lost too many points
2. we won only 1 point in El classicos compared to 4 and 6 points in 2018 and 2019.
Real won 4 points in El Classicos compared to 1 and 0 in 2018 and 2019
3. we didn't have a 10 or 15 point lead in February/March, so Real resurrected eventually.

It is too simplified to look at total numbers of points.

I am dead serious, in a few years, people will cry for EV and we will look at those glory years (results wise) with sadness.
EV is the most underrated person in Barca's history.

Again, his topic is still named Retardo, even though he won 2 La Ligas with this team of washed out players, clowns, misfits and overrated young players.
 
B

Barcilliant

Senior Member
BBZ8800 said:
I wrote before:
1. EV was winning all El classicos
That is already a difference between 86:86 points and 86:80 or 80:86 points (Barca/Real).
If you are losing El Classicos, you are boosting RM's points.

Further in his first season, he had 11 wins in the first 12 matches, plus El Classico win.
That's a double blow to a RM.
1) winning points in El Classicos, meaning that their total points will be lower by 6 points
2) and killing their morale with winning in El Classicos and having a 10-point lead early on

So, RM might have been weaker that year, but one of the reasons why they were weaker is=Barca.
We were winning all of our matches early on, we won El Classicos and we killed their morale and after that they turned to shit since they couldn't catch us.

On the other hand, if our team plays like shit, if we are losing points left and right and if we are losing El classicos, we are boosting RM's morale and motivation.

Check Barca from 2015.
We resurrected because we made changes, but we were still "in" competitions.
On the other hand, imagine if we were 15 points behind RM in January and if were KOd from a CL group stage.
Do you think that a magic in spring 2015 would have happened in that case?
No.

So, it is kinda way too simplified to look at RM's number of total points without asking: WHY?
And the answer is not as simple as: they sucked.
I mean, they won 4 CLs in those 5 years.

To some extent, EV managed to kill the morale of mentally extremely strong team.
How?
This way:
Betis 2:0
Alaves 2:0
Espanyol 5:0
Getafe 2:1
Eibar 6:1
Girona 3:0
Las Palmas 3:0
Atletico 1:1**
Malaga 2:0
Bilbao 2:0
Sevilla 2:1
Leganes 3:0
Valencia 1:1**
Celta 2:2**
Villareal 2:0
Deportivo 4:0
Real 3:0 at Bernabeu
Levante 3:0
Sociedad 4:2
Betis 5:0
Alaves 2:1
21 matches, 18 wins, 3 draws=57 points out of 63 possible.

On the other hand, after 21 rounds, Real had after 21 rounds:
Valencia 2:2
Levante 1:1
Betis 0:1
Girona 1:2
Atletico 0:0
Bilbao 0:0
Barcelona 0:3 at home
Celta 2:2
Villareal 0:1
Levante 2:2
= 21 matches, 11 wins, 6 draws, 5 defeats. 39 points. Weaker head to head than Barca.

It was February 3rd and EV had 18 points advantage over RM.
Do you think that RM's players had any morale left after that?

Also, look at their last 8 rounds, when they were totally without any morale and just saved energy for a CL:
Atletico 1:1
Bilbao 1:1
Barcelona 2:2
Sevilla 2:3
Villareal 2:2

They were losing points against EVERYONE.
Yet a few weeks later, they won their 4th CL in 5 years.
Against mighty Klopp's Liverpool.

How is that possible?
Real is 17 points behind EV's Barca, yet they won a CL 2 Months BEFORE EV's appointment and again 2 weeks after La Liga's season 2017/18.

When you play bad, you are giving chances to your opponents to resurrect instead of finishing him for good.
Ev finished Real early on in both seasons with winning El Classicos and with winning against smaller teams.
In 2018/19, we weren't as good against small teams as in 2017/18, but we killed Real on both occasions with:
5:1 in October and 0:1 in early March on Bernabeu.

On the other hand, what happened in THIS season?
1. we were shit against smaller teams and we lost too many points
2. we won only 1 point in El classicos compared to 4 and 6 points in 2018 and 2019.
Real won 4 points in El Classicos compared to 1 and 0 in 2018 and 2019
3. we didn't have a 10 or 15 point lead in February/March, so Real resurrected eventually.

It is too simplified to look at total numbers of points.

I am dead serious, in a few years, people will cry for EV and we will look at those glory years (results wise) with sadness.
EV is the most underrated person in Barca's history.

Again, his topic is still named Retardo, even though he won 2 La Ligas with this team of washed out players, clowns, misfits and overrated young players.
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Roma 3 Barcelona 0
Liverpool 4 Barcelona 0
 
Batistuta9

Batistuta9

New member
JamDav1982 said:
Why do you think Barca are willing to pay such a high fee for Lautaro? Dreaming if think that is not down in large part to influence of Messi wanting him there.

We will see what happens if Lautaro arrives and if Suarez has not decided his time is up but I would wager that Suarez still plays far more than should and would be the starter ultimately.

He could leave either way and if he does and amigos also do with Barca starting again then so be it.
Click to expand...

Of course Messi will be a massive reason for the board to go after lautaro. They know they need a replacement for Suarez, that is why they are looking at a young striker. It's just a shame that there is a lack of quality young strikers that are available these days. Realistically who else can we get? Other strikers are non transferable or unrealistic for us, like haaland due to raiola.

If lautaro comes in and does well, I can't see Suarez getting into the team. The same with dembele, coutinho and griezmann. If they all were playing well we wouldn't have to replace them.

I honestly don't have a problem with Messi leaving. If he leaves then he leaves. My problem is, that when people say the reason we have a crap squad is because Messi won't let the board buy any players to replace his amigos
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Batistuta9 said:
Of course Messi will be a massive reason for the board to go after lautaro. They know they need a replacement for Suarez, that is why they are looking at a young striker. It's just a shame that there is a lack of quality young strikers that are available these days. Realistically who else can we get? Other strikers are non transferable or unrealistic for us, like haaland due to raiola.

If lautaro comes in and does well, I can't see Suarez getting into the team. The same with dembele, coutinho and griezmann. If they all were playing well we wouldn't have to replace them.

I honestly don't have a problem with Messi leaving. If he leaves then he leaves. My problem is, that when people say the reason we have a crap squad is because Messi won't let the board buy any players to replace his amigos
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Who is saying 'Barca have a crap squad due to Messi' or that Messi wont let board buy players to replace them?

He cant stop the board replacing them but he can leave if it upsets them and the board are shit scared of amigos.

Can see that when tried to resign Neymar despite him suing the club and keeping EV in a job last summer. That is on the board for allowing that influence as well.

The way Barca play with old legs makes it even more difficult for players to come in and succeed.
 
Batistuta9

Batistuta9

New member
JamDav1982 said:
Who is saying 'Barca have a crap squad due to Messi' or that Messi wont let board buy players to replace them?

He cant stop the board replacing them but he can leave if it upsets them and the board are shit scared of amigos.

Can see that when tried to resign Neymar despite him suing the club and keeping EV in a job last summer. That is on the board for allowing that influence as well.

The way Barca play with old legs makes it even more difficult for players to come in and succeed.
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If you are saying Messi would threaten to leave if the amigos are sold then it is the same as saying we have a crap squad because of Messi.

This board has been so bad. They have no plan. They keep getting mid table level managers who fear the sack. With 400m, they could have bought 5 or 6 players to change the dynamics of the team and made it more athletic, but decided to blow it on 3 overrated players.

Like any organisation, change of direction has to come from the top. If the board are happy with slow boring football, they will continue to waste money like buying a 30 year old pjanic.

Does Messi look happy to you on the pitch? He looks like he CBA to me. There is probably some truth to the story that came out the other day and he's fed up with the current situation at the club
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Batistuta9 said:
If you are saying Messi would threaten to leave if the amigos are sold then it is the same as saying we have a crap squad because of Messi.

This board has been so bad. They have no plan. They keep getting mid table level managers who fear the sack. With 400m, they could have bought 5 or 6 players to change the dynamics of the team and made it more athletic, but decided to blow it on 3 overrated players.

Like any organisation, change of direction has to come from the top. If the board are happy with slow boring football, they will continue to waste money like buying a 30 year old pjanic.

Does Messi look happy to you on the pitch? He looks like he CBA to me. There is probably some truth to the story that came out the other day and he's fed up with the current situation at the club
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I am saying he may well leave and that is what board are shit scared of happening.

The board bend over backwards for the amigos on everything from coach, to transfers and allow too much influence.

Mid table managers are a result of that type of dressing room and no top coach worth anything would touch the job.

Unless Messi is pissed off for right reasons and wants the correct things to happens then personally dont care is he leaves really. If he is pissed off as though EV was the right man with right approach and that the amigos should still be core then he can leave.

By all accounts amigos kept EV in a job last summer, wanted Neymar back, did not want EV sacked, are influencing on Lautaro signing for money to point Barca will over pay.

Doesnt seem to me that Messi and amigos are aknowledging all that is wrong in club at all and what needs to be done to correct it.
 
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Batistuta9

Batistuta9

New member
JamDav1982 said:
I am saying he may well leave and that is what board are shit scared of happening.

The board bend over backwards for the amigos on everything from coach, to transfers and allow too much influence.

Mid table managers are a result of that type of dressing room and no top coach worth anything would touch the job.

Unless Messi is pissed off for right reasons and wants the correct things to happens then personally dont care is he leaves really. If he is pissed off as though EV was the right man with right approach and that the amigos should still be core then he can leave.

By all accounts amigos kept EV in a job last summer, wanted Neymar back, did not want EV sacked, are influencing on Lautaro signing for money to point Barca will over pay.

Doesnt seem to me that Messi and amigos are aknowledging all that is wrong in club at all and what needs to be done to correct it.
Click to expand...

Even if this is true, it's still the boards fault. They should be stronger and do whats best for the club. Truth is they don't really care.

It's like when the board at the time when pep first came, got rid of deco and ronaldinho even though they were established 1st team players. That was good leadership.

The team always has to come first. Barto & co don't have a clue. They are spineless and should have replaced underperforming players whether they like it or not. Look how ruthless perez was once cr7 started to decline.
 
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