Quique Setien
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KingLeo10
Senior Member
FCBfan22
Senior Member
That and the main rivals falling apart too.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
No. Messi is preventing us from sinking.
Plus, in EPL you have City, Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham, so you can actually sink to a 5th or 6th spot easily.
In Spain, even if you suck, you will end 2nd, or 3rd. Other clubs in Spain are too meh that we could sink like Man Utd.
Or imagine Germany.
No matter what Bayern will do, they will always end the 1st.
Or 2nd in some extreme case.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
There's one dude from Argentina who is like 50% of our team.
serghei
Senior Member
There's also one of the best keepers in the world, the best midfielder in CL last season, the best no9 in Spain, the play-maker of the Brazil National Team, several Spanish internationals, one of the best 3 players of the World Cup winners and so on.
But anyway, I don't have to say anything since our reserve players knocked out Inter from CL on their own stadium. If that is not proof of high individual quality nothing is. After a year before almost knocked out Tottenham in the same fashion, the same Tottenham who played the CL final.
But anyway, I don't have to say anything since our reserve players knocked out Inter from CL on their own stadium. If that is not proof of high individual quality nothing is. After a year before almost knocked out Tottenham in the same fashion, the same Tottenham who played the CL final.
serghei
Senior Member
The flaws of the team are all tied to management.
Issues which are unresolved for a long time (5 years minimum):
Causes:
- mood swings in form based on the veterans state of mind, rather than actual logical planning and match prioritization (this explains why occasionally the team's effort doesn't match the importance of the match, sometimes you'd see them pressing vs Granada at home, and other times you see them being lazy in a key CL match).
- poor match preparations and huge fitness issues (more or less we're put to shame in terms of effort vs any team we play).
- yes men managers being hired time and time again to keep the status-quo, please the club de amigos, and basically change nothing in the medium-long run.
- bad tactics which basically derive both from hiring average managers and lacking some attributes which might improve us in this aspect.
Effects:
- collapses in CL, where we meet very well-drilled and intense, hard working teams which expose our lack of team-values (by values I mean work ethic, desire, ambition, fitness preparation etc.).
- continuous delaying of any reconstruction, because the collective values which form the foundation of any great team are no longer there. You can not have any reconstruction if the new arrivals and talented players are put in the service of a faulty system upon which they have no influence.
Important things which have been untouched by the rot (for the time being), and this is what makes us very successful in spite of the clear team issues (separating our case from most other big clubs who are struggling):
- our league record. It is still very good, not because we are a great team, but because, in spite of all the problems, we have some advantages that other teams don't have.
These advantages are:
- having Messi who is still at this age, too much to handle for most teams in the league, at an individual level.
- a top quality team in terms of talent and ability on the ball (make no mistake, we have the most talented and techincal squad in Spain, which is not the same as the best). This over 38 games has tremendous impact.
- benefiting from some rather weak rivals, who have many struggles of their own.
Issues which are unresolved for a long time (5 years minimum):
Causes:
- mood swings in form based on the veterans state of mind, rather than actual logical planning and match prioritization (this explains why occasionally the team's effort doesn't match the importance of the match, sometimes you'd see them pressing vs Granada at home, and other times you see them being lazy in a key CL match).
- poor match preparations and huge fitness issues (more or less we're put to shame in terms of effort vs any team we play).
- yes men managers being hired time and time again to keep the status-quo, please the club de amigos, and basically change nothing in the medium-long run.
- bad tactics which basically derive both from hiring average managers and lacking some attributes which might improve us in this aspect.
Effects:
- collapses in CL, where we meet very well-drilled and intense, hard working teams which expose our lack of team-values (by values I mean work ethic, desire, ambition, fitness preparation etc.).
- continuous delaying of any reconstruction, because the collective values which form the foundation of any great team are no longer there. You can not have any reconstruction if the new arrivals and talented players are put in the service of a faulty system upon which they have no influence.
Important things which have been untouched by the rot (for the time being), and this is what makes us very successful in spite of the clear team issues (separating our case from most other big clubs who are struggling):
- our league record. It is still very good, not because we are a great team, but because, in spite of all the problems, we have some advantages that other teams don't have.
These advantages are:
- having Messi who is still at this age, too much to handle for most teams in the league, at an individual level.
- a top quality team in terms of talent and ability on the ball (make no mistake, we have the most talented and techincal squad in Spain, which is not the same as the best). This over 38 games has tremendous impact.
- benefiting from some rather weak rivals, who have many struggles of their own.
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MagIX
Senior Member
For next season we need a revolution like Pep did in 2008.
Of the current 11 starters, to keep:
Attack: Messi
Midfield: De Jong
Defence: the 3 CB (Piqué, Umtiti, Lenglet) and obviously Ter Stegen
Yes, I am happy with our 3 CB
Dembele and Arthur: ok, I try to think positive, let see under Setien what they are worth.
Yes, I would sell Griezmann, good player, but I don't want him as a winger or as a CF.
Of the current 11 starters, to keep:
Attack: Messi
Midfield: De Jong
Defence: the 3 CB (Piqué, Umtiti, Lenglet) and obviously Ter Stegen
Yes, I am happy with our 3 CB
Dembele and Arthur: ok, I try to think positive, let see under Setien what they are worth.
Yes, I would sell Griezmann, good player, but I don't want him as a winger or as a CF.
Pep sold nowhere near the amount you're asking for. Buying half a starting eleven in one go has never been a success, it's not realistic either.
Sultan
Nosce te ipsum
It has taken Liverpool 30 years to get it right. After 7 years, Utd are still sinking.
Let's not fall into mistakenly taking the symptoms as the root cause. Ever since the death of Tito, we've slowly drifted away from our ethos. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, due to a variety of reasons we have continued to be successful domestically and because of this we continued on drifting.
We must return to our Ethos. This can only happen if the current management changes their ways, or are changed.
Setien's appointment, hopefully, means they're atleast trying to do that. Whether he get's a longer contract, or we are waiting for Koeman to finish Euro 2020, I hope we are committed to this reversion.
Let's not fall into mistakenly taking the symptoms as the root cause. Ever since the death of Tito, we've slowly drifted away from our ethos. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, due to a variety of reasons we have continued to be successful domestically and because of this we continued on drifting.
We must return to our Ethos. This can only happen if the current management changes their ways, or are changed.
Setien's appointment, hopefully, means they're atleast trying to do that. Whether he get's a longer contract, or we are waiting for Koeman to finish Euro 2020, I hope we are committed to this reversion.
Messi983
Senior Member
Yeah.
Another thing is Pep had Xaviesta entering their prime years, a young Messi ready to take on a bigger role and two unknown (for fans), not overhyped by the media but talented (and even more so hardworking) kids he trusted from his time at Barça B in Busquets and Pedro.
Not let's use a hypotethical scenario where a 38 yo Pep (so not someone with 10 years of coaching experience at the top level who thinks a bit different now though his overall philosophy didn't change; it's stupid and unrealistic to think about today's Pep because he would never return, mostly because of the reasons I'll write about) would take over our current team and would need to do a similar rebuild he did in 2008. Who could he build his team around? Frenkie? Sure. Arthur? He's his type of midfielder so probably too. They wouldn't be anywhere close to the prime Xaviesta level but still pretty good. It's a solid start but we would still be far away.
Who would take over a young Messi role to take over from an old Messi (yes, he's still great but won't be here forever)? There is no individual player who can ever replace him and hopefully we won't look for that player as we would ruin any player (especially a young one) career if we'll ever expect someone to take over Messi.
(Not really a point of my post but just a thought I had: Because of La Liga rules it's not possible to permanently retire numbers but I think it would be probably for the best if we'd at least temporarily (for 3-5 years) "retire" a #10 after Messi leaves. Personally I'm not a big believer in importance of jersey numbers but many people are setting their expectations of the players also based on a shirt number they get. #6 and #8 have a pretty big weight here but #10 will be a totally different story after Messi who has re-written almost all football history books. So good luck to whichever player will get Barça's #10 the first (and second, third, tenth) after him.)
Further, who would be Pep's Busquets and Pedro nowadays? Puig and Fati (not meaning their exact positions but La Masia kids who could get important first team minutes soon and become future longterm starters)? Maybe but it's not a given they'll really succeed the same way Busi and Pedro did. None of them exactly fits coming out of nowhere/breakthrough player criteria but this is mostly because of a social media era we're living in when it's a lot harder to keep players (especially at big clubs) flying under the radar than 10 years ago though Fati somehow did this with his unexpected "promotion" to the first team before even making a Barça B debut.
Now, if we assume everything would go right so far with the players already here (which most likely wouldn't just for a simple fact we won't have a young Messi) we'd come to second part of our rebuild. Who would we bring from the outside to replace aging starters and/or improve other parts of the team.
Let's go back to Pep's transfers in 2008.
- Alves: 35,5m
- Hleb: 17m
- Caceres: 16,5m
- Keita: 14m
- Henrique: 8m
- Pique: 5m
- Pinto: free
- Busquets: promoted
So that's 96m spend. Using inflation on the market we could say this would be 250-300m today (there was a 200% inflation on the market since Neymar's transfer to PSG so I don't think 250-300% inflation in 10 years is really too exagerrated; If someone doesn't believe just think about how how much a prime Alves would cost today if he would even be availlable). Three of the players we've bought that year were a total waste of money but we won't hit on every player we'll buy now too so this is pretty realistic.
(For people complaining about our recent transfers we either hit a home run or strike out - to use baseball analogy - too during Pep's tenure, even more so than today. We rarely hit a single and buy a "so-so" players who were somewhere in the middle - solid squad players for a few years - and they were mostly brought for cheap like Maxwell or Adriano. Every other big money transfer was either a big success or a total flop. But what we don't have now and won't have in a forseeable future and possibly never again to save us from our failed signings is a golden generation of La Masia.)
Anyway, back to our imaginary rebuild. So we would have 300m to get a new CB or two, a striker (keep in mind he'd need to fit Pep's profile so Haaland for 20m probably wouldn't be an option; he wanted Ibra back then so who knows though) or someone we could use as a false 9, maybe another CM who would fit Pep's system and possibly another winger (we don't know if Pep would be able to prevent Dembele's injury problems like he did earlier in Messi's career and develop his untapped potential). We would probably also need a younger LB and possibly a new RB as well.
So quite a lot of needs and "just" 300m to spend (in reality we have less because of what we've spend in recent years and our inability to sell and whoever our coach would be can't change those facts). And we also have to keep in mind we'll probably only hit on half of our transfers so if we'll buy 5-6 players two or three of them better be a big home runs like Alves/Pique and not just singles like Maxwell/Adriano. Other 2-3 players most likely won't stay for more than a season or two and then be loaned or sold with a loss and replaced by other players who would hopefully have more success.
It's easy to say we should do what Pep did in 2008 (and as I've mentioned in my previous post what lead to that revolution were two consecutive trophy-less seasons which we didn't have since then) but reality is different. Circumstances have changed both inside the club (which is our responsibility) and on the market (not totally our fault though we undoubtely helped to heat up the market).
Considering all this how much chances would a young Pep have to replicate what he did in 2008 or at least come close to that kind of success in 2019/20? Not too big I'd say. Yes, he has clearly developed into a great manager (he was developing, learning and growing together with his team) but he was also "lucky" to be in the right place at the right time. And we benefited from that "luck".
But at the same time we are still paying price for all that success nowadays because we failed to replace Busi and Pique (well, we still don't have a replacement for him
) for too long and Xavi, Alves, Iniesta.. before them (luckily they've decided to move on or else they would still be here because we wouldn't "throw them out of the club", most likely as starters so our problems would be even bigger ) and nowadays they are old and unmotivated. While Messi is still playing on a GOAT level most of the times his motivation is understandably not the same as 8-10 years ago and physical regression is also visible. So our current situation is also his responsibility mostly because he was/is so good he masked a lot of weaknesses we've had over the years which we would probably address (or at least try to address whether successfull or not is another question) sooner if not for him and on the other hand because he lost his hunger for titles and is nowadays happy having a comfortable life with his familly and being surrounded by his friends inside the team (Bartomeu&Co. don't want to upset Messi so they are keeping them around). I don't see our future as bleak as BBZ but a lot of things will need to be done right and we'll also need some (or a lot of) luck over the next 18 months so we could look more optimistic on post-Messi era.
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Sultan
Nosce te ipsum
True, Messi’s greatness is the main reason why their misguided deviation has been a somewhat tolerable disaster.
Knowing this, the best preparations we can now make for post-Messi must not be on the transfer market but first and foremost a reversion to Mes Que En Club and Cruyff. Let United be a warning for all. After 7 years and spending over 700 million, they have now just begun talking about finding upon a system.
Fortunately for us we at least don’t have to start from scratch, we know our way, we just have to get back on it.
serghei
Senior Member
I want for him to show backbone and guts. Otherwise, everything he said, which were great signs, are meaningless words in the wind. Just like Valverde's lies.
I didn't like that he implied we weren't awful vs Ibiza and the win was expected. It was a fucking lucky escape like what happened during Valverde time and time again until luck ran out.
I'm still patient, but if we don't see improvements in the next 6 months he should be gone.
I didn't like that he implied we weren't awful vs Ibiza and the win was expected. It was a fucking lucky escape like what happened during Valverde time and time again until luck ran out.
I'm still patient, but if we don't see improvements in the next 6 months he should be gone.
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FCBarca
Mike the Knife
Fans are both fickle & impatient by nature, cules are no different. To question Setien this soon underscores just how much, same applies to journalists. Spanish ones & the entorno are bad but English punditry is not much different IMHO - I think the agendas are just as clear
I am overjoyed with the changes (Apart from the sporting ones taken by Bartomeu with. Alena & Todibo) under Setien and continue to be optimistic & enthused about what we're bound to eventually see on the pitch - too many critics have infantile attention spans
I am overjoyed with the changes (Apart from the sporting ones taken by Bartomeu with. Alena & Todibo) under Setien and continue to be optimistic & enthused about what we're bound to eventually see on the pitch - too many critics have infantile attention spans
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