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Thread: CL | Round 6: Inter Milan - FC Barcelona 1-2

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by henias View Post
    On the contrary, La Liga has been regressing pretty quick as well.
    Cumulative UEFA results disagree with you. Profoundly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri B View Post
    One game does not mean very much, that is absolutely true, but it works the other way round as well. Sometimes we lose through (partly) bad luck, but still the world laughs at us. We should be reserving the same right. Don't you agree?
    I understand what your saying...
    However I can not generate satisfaction for myself from making others small - even more not, if the data does not really allow that. If others stumble and fall, I can not laugh, even if they laughed when I slipped. Others feel the need for revenge, I have other ways to overcome my sadness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri B View Post
    But more seriously, too often Premfaces, Calcionistas and Bundesligers try to belittle our team and even Messi by deploying the stereotypical anti-LL arguments.
    The truth is on the field - they can say what ever they want, let them talk.

    How do you measure the best league? is that an average? (makes no sense because, if the last 5 teams are complete idiots teams, it brings down the avg., but does not effect how good the top is)
    ... or just the international results of the best teams (some might argue, it is because they have this sheik/oligarch with unlimited money)? ;-)
    I try to focus on good games, not any childish "superman is stronger/faster than Flash"-talks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri B View Post
    All this despite the fact the LL has been the best league in the world for more years than any other league, and has been so in the past decade or so. We should be ruthless when dealing with pesky idiots of any stripe. Wouldn't you agree?
    No I do not agree, I choose to be unconcerned if other have other opinions. They might be interesting to hear - maybe I change - maybe I wont. But I do not feel, I have to rub them my view as into their face until they give in - otherwise I call them names - because they are just stupid.

    0% of everyones forming of opinions (more preceise: BELIEVES) are the result of a dispute - so why fight? People defend their opinion because they 1.want to fight 2. fear losing 3. cant stand being wrong 4. ......
    Last edited by devo901; 11th December 2019 at 01:46 PM.
    If you observe something that does not make sense, remember: it's all about the dough!

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri B View Post
    Cumulative UEFA results disagree with you. Profoundly.
    https://www.uefa.com/memberassociati...ntry/#/yr/2020 how do you read this data?

    15/16 16/17 17/18 18/19 19/20
    Spain 23.928 20.142 19.714 19.571 10.642
    Engl. 14.250 14.928 20.071 22.642 10.714


    to me the trend is going down... slightly ...
    If you observe something that does not make sense, remember: it's all about the dough!

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    Quote Originally Posted by devo901 View Post
    https://www.uefa.com/memberassociati...ntry/#/yr/2020 how do you read this data?

    15/16 16/17 17/18 18/19 19/20
    Spain 23.928 20.142 19.714 19.571 10.642
    Engl. 14.250 14.928 20.071 22.642 10.714


    to me the trend is going down... slightly ...
    24 coefficient points is an insane degree of success to maintain (virtually impossible) @henias claim was that LL has "been regressing pretty quickly" which is manifestly wrong. Look at this season, all 4 Spanish clubs have made it through relatively tough groups. In EL, even Espanyol (absolute bottom of LL) have topped their group. LL has been the best league in all of Europe for the past 2 decades (not every single year, but the whole era taken in its entirety) That's a fact.

    The slight decrease in success is down to all 3 big Spanish clubs rebuilding after a monstrous period of domination, a slight dip was the least that could have happened. Also, the Prem's ludicrous financial might was bound to show at some stage. But now LL is working hard on bridging the money gap with the EPL.

    Edit: I tend to be more confrontational when other either ignore or bend the facts.

    As for how one judges a league overall strength, there are several holistic ways of doing so. One can take stats in their entirety, UEFA rankings, titles, points needed to make benchmark A, B or C etc etc etc. If one looks at those metrics objectively, then the answers are pretty clear. Just to give one example, I am sure you remember at how people were telling us that LL "is a joke" because the Big 2 were pushing 100 points for a few seasons. Now, it has transpired, that even in the almighty PL, "where anyone can beat anyone", a truly potent side (Citeh, Pool) can just as well push 100 points. Their propaganda has turned full circle and bites them in the ass.
    Last edited by Centauri B; 11th December 2019 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri B View Post
    24 coefficient points is an insane degree of success to maintain (virtually impossible) @henias claim was that LL has "been regressing pretty quickly" which is manifestly wrong. Look at this season, all 4 Spanish clubs have made it through relatively tough groups. In EL, even Espanyol (absolute bottom of LL) have topped their group. LL has been the best league in all of Europe for the past 2 decades (not every single year, but the whole era taken in its entirety) That's a fact.

    The slight decrease in success is down to all 3 big Spanish clubs rebuilding after a monstrous period of domination, a slight dip was the least that could have happened. Also, the Prem's ludicrous financial might was bound to show at some stage. But now LL is working hard on bridging the money gap with the EPL.

    Edit: I tend to be more confrontational when other either ignore or bend the facts.

    As for how one judges a league overall strength, there are several holistic ways of doing so. One can take stats in their entirety, UEFA rankings, titles, points needed to make benchmark A, B or C etc etc etc. If one looks at those metrics objectively, then the answers are pretty clear. Just to give one example, I am sure you remember at how people were telling us that LL "is a joke" because the Big 2 were pushing 100 points for a few seasons. Now, it has transpired, that even in the almighty PL, "where anyone can beat anyone", a truly potent side (Citeh, Pool) can just as well push 100 points. Their propaganda has turned full circle and bites them in the ass.
    There's a stark difference though. Barcelona and Madrid has dipped massively in form but are still comfortably at the top of the table whereas if any team in the PL will be punished severely for not being in their top condition. You have to take into consideration the Spanish giants also has the biggest players of the generation like Messi and Ronaldo, they have dominantly been the top scorers in these competitions. I could also say Madrid's dominance were down to severe referees' blunders and I can guarantee they would have never been able to win a three peat in the infancy of VAR.

    No doubt in the gap in money but you can't assume things like that. Money cant buy everything and there are many factors that dictates a team's ability.

    One thing I'm sure of is that getting past the group stages is only the fetal stage and groups vary and are subjective. I could also say the same when there were only 3 Spanish teams that made it out last year. Teams like Madrid were quickly disposed of and Barcelona struggled in the knockout stages like always. Barca's gargantuan expenditure for so many years would be futile in the end, due to terrible signings or will they be "bound to show at some some stage"? It's a superficial way of looking at teams ultimately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henias View Post
    There's a stark difference though. Barcelona and Madrid has dipped massively in form but are still comfortably at the top of the table whereas if any team in the PL will be punished severely for not being in their top condition. You have to take into consideration the Spanish giants also has the biggest players of the generation like Messi and Ronaldo, they have dominantly been the top scorers in these competitions. I could also say Madrid's dominance were down to severe referees' blunders and I can guarantee they would have never been able to win a three peat in the infancy of VAR.

    No doubt in the gap in money but you can't assume things like that. Money cant buy everything and there are many factors that dictates a team's ability.

    One thing I'm sure of is that getting past the group stages is only the fetal stage and groups vary and are subjective. I could also say the same when there were only 3 Spanish teams that made it out last year. Teams like Madrid were quickly disposed of and Barcelona struggled in the knockout stages like always. Barca's gargantuan expenditure for so many years would be futile in the end, due to terrible signings or will they be "bound to show at some some stage"? It's a superficial way of looking at teams ultimately.
    I am genuinely unsure of what you are trying to say there. Which one of my claims do you disagree with? You said that LL is declining rapidly. There is absolutely zero evidence for that, there has only been a slight dip in results from towering heights not seen in European football since the golden age of Serie A in the '90s.

    I did not say that the GS is the beginning and end of UEFA competitions, I was just referencing the most recent results available to us. What happens from here on out remains to be seen, the luck of the draw is always a factor.

    As for Real Madrid being lucky in some of their most recent successes, I agree 100%, but there can be no doubt that they had a formidable team that demonstrated real bottle in the competition. By the same token, Atleti & even more so Barca, were quite unlucky in the CL in recent seasons. Same can be said of Liverpool last year, they were lucky to get out of their group (ludicrous penaldo against PSG from a Mane dive, without that they would be out there and then) as they were lucky to play the weakest team in the QFs and then in the 2nd leg against us in which every random ball fell their way (xG for that game was something like 2-1) Spurs were also very lucky last season. This is why we should not overreact to isolated results and even isolated seasons.

    As for Barca's massive expenditures. The number one advantage of being a rich club is that you can hold onto your best payers, the number 2 advantage is that even if you make some extremely wasteful signings, you are still solid financially and can keep on spending just as Barcelona currently are.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri B View Post
    I am genuinely unsure of what you are trying to say there. Which one of my claims do you disagree with? You said that LL is declining rapidly. There is absolutely zero evidence for that, there has only been a slight dip in results from towering heights not seen in European football since the golden age of Serie A in the '90s.

    I did not say that the GS is the beginning and end of UEFA competitions, I was just referencing the most recent results available to us. What happens from here on out remains to be seen, the luck of the draw is always a factor.

    As for Real Madrid being lucky in some of their most recent successes, I agree 100%, but there can be no doubt that they had a formidable team that demonstrated real bottle in the competition. By the same token, Atleti & even more so Barca, were quite unlucky in the CL in recent seasons. Same can be said of Liverpool last year, they were lucky to get out of their group (ludicrous penaldo against PSG from a Mane dive, without that they would be out there and then) as they were lucky to play the weakest team in the QFs and then in the 2nd leg against us in which every random ball fell their way (xG for that game was something like 2-1) Spurs were also very lucky last season. This is why we should not overreact to isolated results and even isolated seasons.

    As for Barca's massive expenditures. The number one advantage of being a rich club is that you can hold onto your best payers, the number 2 advantage is that even if you make some extremely wasteful signings, you are still solid financially and can keep on spending just as Barcelona currently are.
    So why do you keep using past results to conclude that the league is better? No doubt Madrid and Barca were in their golden period and were able to boost the Spanish sides where they had Ronaldo and Messi leading the frontlines; they were truly dominant.

    A two time humiliation and Barcelona struggling since 2015 is no luck or coincidence. Let's not even talk about luck. For Madrid, there's simply serious offside errors made by referees which were reduced largely due to VAR. Though it still has flaws, it does diminish blatant errors like that from happening. If you're using an example of Inter as being terrible, I could say the same for Barca and Madrid where they are still comfortably at the top of La Liga table. Not even gonna talk about xG if you are using coefficients and results here.

    As for the coefficient, the insane amount of points are definitely due to the the dominance but I'm referring to recent times. The three peat definitely contibuted. And yes, this is not a one-off and I can see it heading down. Until Barcelona and Madrid can fully rebuild, I dont see how they can ever achieve that "towering result" ever again. At least we are lucky to have Messi to stay afloat.

    I love how you tried to dismiss English teams for being rich yet you are truly okay with Barcelona squadering on signings these past few years yet cannot explain why they struggled so much in the CL. I'm not concerned about the financial stability.

    Of course, when reality starts to hit you, one will try to pin it on luck and xG. I assumed you think Valencia deserved to go though more than Ajax based on xG?
    Last edited by henias; 12th December 2019 at 03:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by henias View Post
    So how are you using past results from the top 4 in La Liga to conclude that the entire league is better, especially in recent times where Madrid struggled as well? No doubt Madrid and Barca were in their golden period where they had Ronaldo and Messi leading the frontlines, they were truly dominant.

    A two time humiliation and Barcelona struggling since 2015 is no luck or coincidence. Let's not even talk about luck. For Madrid, there's simply serious offside errors made by referees which were reduced largely due to VAR. Though it still has flaws, it does diminish blatant errors like that from happening. If you're using an example of Inter as being terrible, I could say the same for Barca and Madrid where they are still comfortably at the top of La Liga table. Not even gonna talk about xG if you are using coefficients and results here.

    As for the coefficient, the insane amount of points are definitely due to the the dominance but I'm referring to recent times. The three peat definitely contibuted. And yes, this is not a one-off and I can see it heading down. Until Barcelona and Madrid can fully rebuild, I dont see how they can ever achieve that "towering result" ever again. At least we are lucky to have Messi to stay afloat.
    Some factors & facts you seem to be either unaware of or deliberately omitting:

    a) La Liga dominated the Europa League as well, not just the CL for several years.

    b) You mentioning Messi & CR as some kind of counter-point is absurd. They were part of LL, everything is included in any objective analysis.

    c) Barcelona got narrowly eliminated 3 times in the last 4 seasons. Against Juventus in 2017, were better in both legs, but could not finish our chances whilst Juve did, this is how football is sometimes. We can use any kind of adjective we may choose to sensationalize, but the objective reality is that they were all extremely narrow eliminations. One minor detail changes, and Barca would be through on all occasions. I strongly disagree with you, Barca's recent eliminations in the CL definitely contain an element of misfortune, just like Real Madrid's victories contained an element of good fortune, but this was not my point, the point is that I insist on basing my conclusions and claims on all available resultsnot just on those that tend to suit my POV.

    .d) Your expectations about the future are not very useful here (and neither are mine) since it would simply be speculation on our part. It's best to base ourselves on what has transpired until now.

    e) I am not sure whether you are still insisting on the claim that spawned this debate in the first place, namely that "LL is rapidly declining"