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Thread: FC Barcelona tactics under Ernesto Valverde - matches analysis with pics

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    Let's go at this logically.

    1)
    Ernesto Valverde is an average manager. Proven, tested, pretty much a certainty. More demanding fans would go as far as calling him terrible with good reason. Most lenient of fans would could probably name him decent. Everything more and we go into delusion territory. Average and decent are already generous terms for Valverde.

    2)
    Barcelona with Ernesto Valverde had to at worst lose a football game by 3 goals while scoring, that is losing 4-1, 5-2, to play a CL final vs Tottenham.

    3)
    We almost knocked out Tottenham for CL playing with a 2nd string side at Camp Nou. Beat them 4-2 away.

    It is very probable that we would have eliminated Liverpool last year from CL and beat Tottenham in the final, if we had a competent manager.
    Serghei, why don't you look at the base point of my post?
    I am not saying that EV is good or even average coach. But you guys are continuously ignoring the truth. Why? Are you so delusional that you can not see what is the real problem of this Barcelona team? The coach is the last thing we should worry about. In my previous post I have pointed the real issues.

    A) The board of directors have no clear vision about the future of this team. And why would they have, when Camp Nou is full every game and the team has recorded it's biggest profit in more than 5 years. All this millionaires care is the profit of their invested money.

    B) They have no plan for rebuilding of this team. Bringing in superstars like Griezmann and Neymar, even not in their prime is all what they need. Because the big names sell. The big names bring in a lots of money, even if they don't play at a top level.

    C) Bartomeu, maybe is the main person to be blamed for this situation. His primary job as president is to make sure our sporting director E.Abidal and P.Kluivert make the proper selection of the players we need. Our defense is one of the worst in the league at the moment. We don't have even one attacking mid-fielder, who can set-up the plays. In the front line we have aged and washed out Suarez, always injured Dembele, still injured and not at 100 % Messi and Rafinha, who is just average player for a lower level teams. Then we have La Masia products C.Perez and Ansu Fati, who are very promising youngsters, but still have long way to go, till they become a reliable starters for this team. Instead of looking around and finding the right pieces for those positions, we have spent the entire off-season talking about Neymar, till the very last day of the transfer window. And here we are again, with the same line-up, adding just FDJ and Griezmann. Do you think, they can change anything and make Barca the dominant force in Europe again? Of course not. And that is not because EV.

    D) We are talking about star players, wearing our jersey, who makes millions of euros. They don't need a coach, who can tell them how to play. They already know what they need to do. The problem comes from the FACT that in the last 4-5 years, our system was to give the ball to Messi ASAP and let him finish as he can. Yes. In the beginning that "system" was working well, because Pique, Busquets,Alba, Messi and Suare were still young and because we have had Xavi and Iniesta, who were directing all the balls to the maestro Leo. But, they are gone. The above mentioned names are not in their primes anymore. As a matter of fact, Pique, Busquets and Suarez are total garbage this days. Is that E.Valverde's fault? We need brand new defensive line-up. We need at least one play-maker and two solid and young strikers to turn things around. Give him those players and then, if he still can not do well, then, ONLY THEN, we can start talking about replacing him. Now, all that kind of conversations and arguments are very premature and groundless. Stop being delusional fellow Barca fans. Open your eyes and see the real problems. Valverde is the least one of them.

  2. #32
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    And what stop him to show that he is top 5 player, as you say? Messi, Dembele and Suarez were out for long time. He had the perfect chance to show his abilities, but he failed. I was saying many, many times that he is not the player we need. Paying that much money for someone, who does not even know his place on the field was pure stupidity for our board. With Messi and Suarez in the line-up, Griezmann will be the same shit as he is at the moment.

  3. #33
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    Sorry, but I stopped reading at 'the coach is the last thing we should worry about'.

  4. #34
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    FC Barcelona tactics under Ernesto Valverde ???


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABarcaFan View Post
    They don't need a coach, who can tell them how to play. They already know what they need to do.
    Hehe... this is the silly 300 years old argument, claiming the symphonic orchestra doesn't need a conductor, they can play on their own.
    Well, they can play but the result is usually quite bad because there's no single and determined CONCEPT behind the common (collective) effort.
    Playing a concert where every musician plays just as he feels to be the best, doesn't result in a good performance.

    Denying the very existence of a common concept and tactics is not a fruitful way to look at football.
    Unfortunately if you fail to realize that 11 great sportsmen usually do not necessarily form a good team, you are arguing with the basics of football.

    Specially nowadays, when tactically most possibilities have already been tried and tested out, the role of the manager is even more important than ever.

  6. #36
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    Even world class players need a coach on the same level to perform up to their full potential. No matter how good players might be, on the highest level it's simply not realistic to just ignore the coach and expect them to do it on their own. So yes of course a lot of the things we see on the pitch are on Valverde and no amount of transfers would fundamentally change that. Obviously there are problems with the squad too, quite a lot actually and thats mainly on Barto and his board but still that doesn't mean changing up the squad is the only thing to worry about. The position of the coach is the one that makes the biggest difference, a better DM or RB or whatever is nice but that alone will never make the same difference that a better coach can make.

    Honestly i don't even understand how this is still up for debate at this point. Imo it's only about finding the right coach to take the job, because getting the right coach is often way easier said than done especially since getting a truly world class coach is pretty much impossible right now. Even though i would consider pretty much every name that regularly gets mentioned an upgrade over Ernie i still wouldn't like to just hire some random guy because getting a new coach would most likely be at least a commitment until 2021 elections.

    Of course you can consider Barto the "real problem" here...but that's also because he is the one that hired and kept Valverde. It's not thr boards job to develop attacking tactics and it's not like the squad setup automatically restricts the coach to "pass to Messi" football or bad football in general. On the other hand it is their job to find the right coach for the team and well they stick with Ernie, what imo is their biggest mistake no matter how much money they wasted with Coutinho, Griezmann etc.
    Last edited by MTL_Barca; 25th September 2019 at 12:16 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTL_Barca View Post
    Honestly i don't even understand how this is still up for debate at this point.
    Same feelings here.
    To deny the role of the coach in a situation like the present one is a very strange opinion.
    There's a nice video on Tube that tactically analyzes how EV has ruined the traditional Barca attacking game, worth to watch.

    Imo it's only about finding the right coach to take the job, because getting the right coach is often way easier said than done especially since getting a truly world class coach is pretty much impossible right now. Even though i would consider pretty much every name that regularly gets mentioned an upgrade over Ernie i still wouldn't like to just hire some random guy because getting a new coach would most likely be at least a commitment until 2021 elections.
    I think it is a misconception.
    The are dozens of lesser known great coaches out there, who could achieve quite solid results without the household-names-players, at clubs that are mostly selling talents and not buy any.

    It's not necessarily the best way to always think in the best names, the famous ones who fill the press anyway.
    Obviously the possible worst choice for Barca is the Valverde-type, who is not too good, not too bad, the typical statue of mediocrity.
    But this club will always cry out for an ex-Barca player, someone with a connection that essentially forbids to hire the best coaches, apart from Pep, who has rightly and clearly announced he would never come back, probably he has good reasons to think like that.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABarcaFan View Post
    Serghei, why don't you look at the base point of my post?
    I am not saying that EV is good or even average coach. But you guys are continuously ignoring the truth. Why? Are you so delusional that you can not see what is the real problem of this Barcelona team? The coach is the last thing we should worry about. In my previous post I have pointed the real issues.

    A) The board of directors have no clear vision about the future of this team. And why would they have, when Camp Nou is full every game and the team has recorded it's biggest profit in more than 5 years. All this millionaires care is the profit of their invested money.

    B) They have no plan for rebuilding of this team. Bringing in superstars like Griezmann and Neymar, even not in their prime is all what they need. Because the big names sell. The big names bring in a lots of money, even if they don't play at a top level.

    C) Bartomeu, maybe is the main person to be blamed for this situation. His primary job as president is to make sure our sporting director E.Abidal and P.Kluivert make the proper selection of the players we need. Our defense is one of the worst in the league at the moment. We don't have even one attacking mid-fielder, who can set-up the plays. In the front line we have aged and washed out Suarez, always injured Dembele, still injured and not at 100 % Messi and Rafinha, who is just average player for a lower level teams. Then we have La Masia products C.Perez and Ansu Fati, who are very promising youngsters, but still have long way to go, till they become a reliable starters for this team. Instead of looking around and finding the right pieces for those positions, we have spent the entire off-season talking about Neymar, till the very last day of the transfer window. And here we are again, with the same line-up, adding just FDJ and Griezmann. Do you think, they can change anything and make Barca the dominant force in Europe again? Of course not. And that is not because EV.

    D) We are talking about star players, wearing our jersey, who makes millions of euros. They don't need a coach, who can tell them how to play. They already know what they need to do. The problem comes from the FACT that in the last 4-5 years, our system was to give the ball to Messi ASAP and let him finish as he can. Yes. In the beginning that "system" was working well, because Pique, Busquets,Alba, Messi and Suare were still young and because we have had Xavi and Iniesta, who were directing all the balls to the maestro Leo. But, they are gone. The above mentioned names are not in their primes anymore. As a matter of fact, Pique, Busquets and Suarez are total garbage this days. Is that E.Valverde's fault? We need brand new defensive line-up. We need at least one play-maker and two solid and young strikers to turn things around. Give him those players and then, if he still can not do well, then, ONLY THEN, we can start talking about replacing him. Now, all that kind of conversations and arguments are very premature and groundless. Stop being delusional fellow Barca fans. Open your eyes and see the real problems. Valverde is the least one of them.
    Point A) True, Profit is no.1 priority for the board.
    Point B) True, Big names bring people to Camp Nou.

    Point C)
    "Our defense is one of the worst in the league at the moment": Semedo, Pique/Todibo, Lenglet/Umtiti, Alba/Firpo is not one of the worst defensive lines in the league.

    "We don't have even one attacking mid-fielder": We have Arthur, Alena and Puig. Except if you mean a classic no.10, then we had Coutinho last year too.

    "In the front line we have aged and washed out Suarez": True. We also have Griezmann there, Suarez is not the only option for CF.

    "always injured Dembele": Dembele was fit in many games last season as well at in the first game of this season, where we were really bad.

    "still injured and not at 100 % Messi": This is circumstantial and has nothing to do with the overall team (and other players') performance at the start of the season.

    "and Rafinha": We don't have Rafinha now unfortunately.

    "C.Perez and Ansu Fati, who are very promising youngsters, but still have long way to go, till they become a reliable starters for this team": True. Fati seems one to look out for. By playing regularly they might end up as reliable starters after all.

    We can't downplay our squad's quality to shift blame away from the manager. This is not a squad that should lose to Granada 2-0 with zero chances created.
    EV keeps making choices based on "political correctness" or something, like:
    - Suarez has a big salary and is Messi's friend, he needs to play.
    - Busquets is a club legend, he needs to play.
    - Rakitic is a senior player, he needs to play.
    - Sergi Roberto is Catalan, he needs to play.
    - Griezmann is not a winger, but Suarez needs to play, so Griezmann will play as a Winger.
    - People like Fati more than Perez, so he should play the first CL away game in Dortmund.

    This is not how he should be thinking. I do understand there are dressing room issues involved, but when a team of elders is outshined by a team of younger players, the coach has the responsibility to make the best decisions for the team. And the senior players will either respect the decision or hit the road. A good and inspiring manager will have the senior player's support whatever his decision may be.

    Fati and C.Perez would have played exactly zero minutes under Valverde if not for the injuries of Messi, Suarez and Dembele. That was a blessing in disguise.
    Without the 4-0 against Liverpool and the unanimous bashing of Rakitic, he would still be the undisputed starter in front of Arthur.
    Where is Puig? Where is Alena? Where is Todibo? Where is Wague? We do have players, but why don't they ever play?

    Point D) Untrue. This has been proven many times.

    Bottom line:
    Valverde does have many good pieces available, but he is unable to put them together for many reasons.
    So even with all the things you mention in points A and B, a better manager would be able to do a better job with this squad.

  9. #39
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    I would say it again. I am not trying to defend Valverde. Don't get me wrong. I am completely OK with his replacement, but you have to understand, no matter who is going to be the next coach, with this roster, Barcelona can not win La Liga, not to mention the CL.This team needs at least 2 years to get complete rebuild. Two years without chasing any trophies. Just building the new foundations of the future dynasty.The GOLDEN ERA of Barcelona is over. It started with the departure of Puyol, then Xavi and finally - Iniesta. We all new that this ends are coming, but the board did not find on time their replacements. They still have not done it yet. Turning to La Masia should be club strategy, but as someone has mentioned here, we sell our talents, instead of integrating them to our first team.The biggest two names that we have coming from there are Ansu Fati and Ricki Puig. Two diamante who should get playing time right a way. I have been one of the most vocal critics of EV for relaying only on his veterans, instead of playing more often our own youngsters. But, if there is no significant change of the personal, no matter who is going to be the next coach, Barcelona's crisis will continue.

  10. #40
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    OK. I still stand behind my words about our defense. Only Semedo and Alba are trying to do something on consistent basis.
    Yes. I am talking about a classic # 10, a real play-maker. Even when Coutinho were here, he could not fill that gap.
    Suarez is done and Griezmann does not like to play # 9. Bartomeu brought him in for that reason, to be Suarez replacement, but the gigolo still has not find his place on the field.
    Dembele, even when healthy, did not play up to his potential.
    I agree with you about Fati and C.Perez. The injuries of Messi, Suarez and Dembele opened the door for them.
    Wague is not better than Semedo at this point. Anyone, who regularly watch Barca "B" games will tell you that. Puig is an absolute talent. He can fill the bill for traditional # 10, alongside FDJ and Arthur. The problem with this kid is his size and physic.He heeds to grow a little bit and put on some musculs.
    Todibo? I agree with you. We should have seen him in play by now. That is 100% Valverde's fault.

    Bottom line:

    "Valverde does have many good pieces available, but he is unable to put them together for many reasons."

    To me, they are not that many as you say. Ter Stegen, FDJ, Arthur, Messi and .... maybe Griezmann. For a team that wants to win the CL, that is not too many.

    "So even with all the things you mention in point A and B, a better manager would be able to do a better job with this squad."
    The question my friend is HOW MUCH BETTER? Barcelona's goals are:

    1. Winning La Liga
    2. Winning Copa del Rey
    3. Winning the Spanish Supercopa
    4. Winning the Champions League
    5. Winning the European Supercup
    6. Winning the World Club Championship

    Can you tell me which manager can win anything from this list with the current squad?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABarcaFan View Post
    I would say it again. I am not trying to defend Valverde. Don't get me wrong. I am completely OK with his replacement, but you have to understand, no matter who is going to be the next coach, with this roster, Barcelona can not win La Liga, not to mention the CL.This team needs at least 2 years to get complete rebuild. Two years without chasing any trophies. Just building the new foundations of the future dynasty.The GOLDEN ERA of Barcelona is over. It started with the departure of Puyol, then Xavi and finally - Iniesta. We all new that this ends are coming, but the board did not find on time their replacements. They still have not done it yet. Turning to La Masia should be club strategy, but as someone has mentioned here, we sell our talents, instead of integrating them to our first team.The biggest two names that we have coming from there are Ansu Fati and Ricki Puig. Two diamante who should get playing time right a way. I have been one of the most vocal critics of EV for relaying only on his veterans, instead of playing more often our own youngsters. But, if there is no significant change of the personal, no matter who is going to be the next coach, Barcelona's crisis will continue.
    No need to explain yourself. Your opinion is as valid as anyone here. I dont think we are quite there yet that we need to rebuild. We allready have younger players that are quality and I think we got a few more years left with the old guard if we play our cards right. Im im not too sure we will do that though..
    I suspect Messi might end up retireing earlier then we hope and expect. I got a feeling he might leave at the same time as Busi and Pique.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABarcaFan View Post
    ...
    A) The board of directors have no clear vision about the future of this team. And why would they have, when Camp Nou is full every game and the team has recorded it's biggest profit in more than 5 years. All this millionaires care is the profit of their invested money.

    B) They have no plan for rebuilding of this team. Bringing in superstars like Griezmann and Neymar, even not in their prime is all what they need. Because the big names sell. The big names bring in a lots of money, even if they don't play at a top level.

    C) Bartomeu, .....
    I think you brought up a very good point that rarely discussed here. Often overlooked and well camouflaged:

    The purpose of FC Barca is to generate money - not produce the best football.

    The purpose is not defined by the fans, experts or players, but by the owners and stakeholders (board). So we see monster deals even if the squad gets uneven. Suarez has to play because he has a lot of fans in asia ... and they need to justify selling him ... if he does not play - darn - no selling argument - no sell. Why do they go to US in August? Because A)? they cheerish the idea of being an ambassidor of soccer? no b) is correct - Money! Its all about the dough!

    -.............-

    However I do not agree with ...
    Quote Originally Posted by LABarcaFan View Post
    They don't need a coach, who can tell them how to play. They already know what they need to do.

    I think I hear you, but we all agree that good trainers (e.g Klopp) - know how to:

    - 1. form a team that are mentally strong to make desisive comebacks in games (liverpool, roma...)
    - 2. Adjust tactics to the enemy (Mo 2010 inter vs. barca who caged Messi and parked the bus)
    - 3. foster younger talents if you need more player (red cards, insured, out of form of other players)
    - 4. make sure everyone on the field is fired up to win ... (raki hello? refusal to work?)
    - and so on....
    the current barca situation shows that expensive players DO NOT know, what to do... isnt that the problem?

    I can hardly think that Dembele studies on Fridays, if the enemy keeper has a problem with high balls, on the line, and all his other positional weekneses ... that is the job of his trainer-staff. So I do see TREMENDOUS responsibility in the manager.
    Last edited by devo901; 25th September 2019 at 07:32 PM.
    If you observe something that does not make sense, remember: it's all about the dough!

  13. #43
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    Talking about the board, obviously not wining the CL, four years in a row does not hurt them that much!!! Barcelona still has recorded the biggest profit of very long time. That is why, they don't change EV or our aged and washed veterans. The money speaks louder.

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    When I sad "they don't need a coach to tell them how to play" I had in mind this.
    Pique knows his place on the field and his duty as a central defender, but... he is just not playing at a high level every single game.
    Bousquets knows his place and role too, but he does not move as he used to do with Xavi and Iniesta. He is softer than toilet paper.
    Suarez is a central forward. How many years he has played at that position? For how many coaches? Does he need someone to explain him that he has to move his fat ass and open himself for his team-mates? Or, is it the coaches fault when he gets a very comfortable pass in the penalty area and he just blew it?
    All that sad, I have to admit that if any player does play out of his position ( thinking about Pique and Alba ) and does not follow coach's instructions, has to be benched immediately. But, Valverde will never do that with his veterans. He is an old school manager.

  15. #45
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    Just to correct some points, Camp Nou is far from full most matches and Barça is not a highly profitable company at all.