Ernesto Valverde

serghei said:

Sorry man, that's just not true. Imo, the Pep tenure is about playing top football throughout, obviously better at home, but underachieving in the away games. We played much better, but the players let him down. Simply not acceptable how we lost some of the games we dominated almost from start to end. Arsenal 1-2, and Chelsea 0-1, is an example how to lose games due to crap finishing.

Hilariously, the one game where we were outplayed fair and square, the Chelsea 2009 game is the one where we got a great result. Inter tie was mared by abysmal refereeing, there must have been 2-3 penalties which we would've got if there was VAR. Plus 2 out of 3 goals Inter scored were illegal. Fuck, Milito was half a yard offside for one of them.

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Pep away games in knockout of CL:
08/09:1-1 in all 3 away games against Lyon,Bayern & Chelsea.We were 9-2 at home
09/10: 1-1 against Stuttgart, 2-2 against Arsenal, 1-3 against Inter. We were 9-1 at home
10/11: 1-2 against Arsenal, 1-0 against Shakhtar, 2-0 against RM. We were 9-3 at home.
11/12: 3-1 against Leverkusen, 0-0 against Milan, 0-1 defeat against Chelsea, we were 12-4 at home.
Of 12 away games, 6 ties ended with draw, 3 wins and 3 defeats.
If we are gonna talk about what could have been etc,of those 3 wins we were against below average Shakhtar, below average Leverkusen & a Madrid team with red card and thanks to individual brilliance to Messi. Which when happens for another coach then he gets no credit for it.
At home, not a single defeat, 9 wins and 3 draws.
I am not sure how we weren't bad in away game.
Sorry mate, but you saying it isn't true for dozen times won't change that fact. There is a reason Pep was called for his inept away games since he was in Barca and it continued with him in Bayern & City.
25% win with the team he had? with the level of football we were playing? come on now. That isn't good by any means.

So what will be his pick for front ?

Griez Suarez Messi

or

Dembele Griez Messi ?

Would he even stick to playing 433?

khaled_a_d said:

Pep away games in knockout of CL:
08/09:1-1 in all 3 away games against Lyon,Bayern & Chelsea.We were 9-2 at home
09/10: 1-1 against Stuttgart, 2-2 against Arsenal, 1-3 against Inter. We were 9-1 at home
10/11: 1-2 against Arsenal, 1-0 against Shakhtar, 2-0 against RM. We were 9-3 at home.
11/12: 3-1 against Leverkusen, 0-0 against Milan, 0-1 defeat against Chelsea, we were 12-4 at home.
Of 12 away games, 6 ties ended with draw, 3 wins and 3 defeats.
If we are gonna talk about what could have been etc,of those 3 wins we were against below average Shakhtar, below average Leverkusen & a Madrid team with red card and thanks to individual brilliance to Messi. Which when happens for another coach then he gets no credit for it.
At home, not a single defeat, 9 wins and 3 draws.
I am not sure how we weren't bad in away game.
Sorry mate, but you saying it isn't true for dozen times won't change that fact. There is a reason Pep was called for his inept away games since he was in Barca and it continued with him in Bayern & City.
25% win with the team he had? with the level of football we were playing? come on now. That isn't good by any means.

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Most of those results are relaxed performances. We knew that if we drew the away game we'd blow all of those teams away mostly at home.

Nobody here is blaming Ernesto Valverde for drawing 0-0 vs Lyon. It's for blowing massive leads twice in a row and becoming an embarrassment. This never happened with Pep.

You sound like BBZ frankly. Have you watched the actual games? If you watch the games vs Arsenal, and Chelsea, 2 of our main 3 losses away in the CL basically, and you arrive at the conclusion that we played badly, you didn't watch the games. We created loads of chances that we wasted.

So, basically, in 6 games in 2011 and 2012, we had 3 wins, 1 draw, and 2 losses in games where we created a huge number of chances to score.

hyped about the Griezmann signing and then i remember this cunt is still managing us next season..

serghei said:

Most of those results are relaxed performances. We knew that if we drew the away game we'd blow all of those teams away mostly at home.

Nobody here is blaming Ernesto Valverde for drawing 0-0 vs Lyon. It's for blowing massive leads twice in a row and becoming an embarrassment. This never happened with Pep.

You sound like BBZ frankly. Have you watched the actual games? If you watch the games vs Arsenal, and Chelsea, 2 of our main 3 losses away in the CL basically, and you arrive at the conclusion that we played badly, you didn't watch the games. We created loads of chances that we wasted.

So, basically, in 6 games in 2011 and 2012, we had 3 wins, 1 draw, and 2 losses in games where we created a huge number of chances to score.

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I've watched every game of them, and I find it surprising you think we weren't bad in away game.
We were good (sometimes very good team) in away games at best. At home we were elite, we were best team in history.
We were 2 totally different teams back then. One home and one away. That is from watching every game, that is from the results, from performance, from critics. From basically everyone who had anything close to unbiased opinion.

And I am not comparing level of away game between EV and Pep, that will be silly because we were on different level back then. Both tactically and individually
But the drop in performance is very comparable
You say we were better team than the others, but we weren't just a better team, we were dominant team who were suppose to dominate opponents. We never kept same level or close to it between home and away.
In 2015 & 2006 we were more of that consistent team wherever we played.

At least, all the other managers were playing all out, risked it but somehow a so called "pragmatic and smart" manager like EV can still fail as terribly, while trying to hold on to the lead right from the get go. Someone who doesnt even dare to make the slightest change in subs or tactics. If his tactics are so pragmatic then things like this shouldn't happen, so when his tactics fail so badly then somehow the team gets the blame? Let's not forget this is some next level bottlejob twice in a row. Never happened with any other managers.

This is not even worth debating. Like come on.

khaled_a_d said:

I've watched every game of them, and I find it surprising you think we weren't bad in away game.

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14-3 shots in the Chelsea loss. 6-1 on target. Chelsea had a shot on target and scored. It was a loss in which the dominant side missed many chances, while the underdog took theirs.

That match is a 4-1 win if we take our chances. And you compare it with disasterclasses like Rome or Liverpool. Come on, man, give it up on Valverde. He's terrible.

serghei said:

Most of those results are relaxed performances. We knew that if we drew the away game we'd blow all of those teams away mostly at home.

Nobody here is blaming Ernesto Valverde for drawing 0-0 vs Lyon. It's for blowing massive leads twice in a row and becoming an embarrassment. This never happened with Pep.

You sound like BBZ frankly. Have you watched the actual games? If you watch the games vs Arsenal, and Chelsea, 2 of our main 3 losses away in the CL basically, and you arrive at the conclusion that we played badly, you didn't watch the games. We created loads of chances that we wasted.

So, basically, in 6 games in 2011 and 2012, we had 3 wins, 1 draw, and 2 losses in games where we created a huge number of chances to score.

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But Pep didnt play against the third best team in the world : Roma.

serghei said:

14-3 shots in the Chelsea loss. 6-1 on target. Chelsea had a shot on target and scored. It was a loss in which the dominant side missed many chances, while the underdog took theirs.

That match is a 4-1 win if we take our chances. And you compare it with disasterclasses like Rome or Liverpool. Come on, man, give it up on Valverde. He's terrible.

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Taking our chance and players failed him. Like seriously?
I mean if somebody dared to say that here about EV, lol.
I mean this is what actually started the conversation, Players failed EV. People say he is responsible and it isn't on the players, someone put the away game on him. We state it started long before him and suddenly it is players fault? give me a break.
I mean hey, Alba was the reason of our goals, Coutinho and Messi wasting chances that could have ended the anfield game in 1st half (of which we were better) so clearly by your logic it is players fault. Poor_Sunyol was right.
You aren't even trying to make a valid argument, we have been shittier in away games for almost a decade and half now. That is unrelated to EV.
Before he came we were beaten 0-3 & 0-4 in same season.
Pep? He had 39-10 goal record at home, 75% winning at home with remaining 25% being draws. But away he has equal amount of wins vs loses (25%) which he had both share of good and bad luck (the later you refuse to acknowledge) and same amount of goals scored and conceded and clearly there was no huge dip in form between home and away
And please, this isn't about EV. you are better than that. This is about an issue that has been discussed for almost a decade before he was hired.

khaled_a_d said:

Taking our chance and players failed him. Like seriously?
I mean if somebody dared to say that here about EV, lol.

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Lol, nowhere near the same. Valverde's team plays like shit. Pep's team played amazing, but sometimes players didn't take their chances and we got beat in games where we had 80% possession and 14-3 shots. The role of the manager is to make sure his team gets in front of goal, and to stop the other teams from doing that frequently. Guardiola teams did that, but still lost on some nights due to poor finishing mostly. Valverde's team was outplayed vs Roma and Liverpool. Not beaten, but outplayed as in they were taught a footballing lesson.

Just don't compare Pep's Barcelona with this monstruosity under Valverde. Just don't. It's night and day man.

Guys here who are anti Valverde don't think the team is beyond reproach. We have several issues that needs fixing. But the way you start to fix them is to sack the clueless guy on the bench, and bring someone who actually knows how to create a team which plays good football.

Valverde with his Atletico impressions is just not that.

Just think of it like this. Despite our elimination v Inter and Chelsea, no one dared question Barca as the best team in the world in those 2 years. Maybe only Mourinho's 11/12 Madrid was a close shout. Otherwise, no one was even close in terms of playing level.

An argument could be made we weren't even top 4 in the world last season. Only won 3-0 at Camp Nou because of luck and some Messi Magic.

Among the big teams, we are a laughing stock in CL lately, second only to QSG.

KingLeo10 said:

Just think of it like this. Despite our elimination v Inter and Chelsea, no one dared question Barca as the best team in the world in those 2 years. Maybe only Mourinho's 11/12 Madrid was a close shout. Otherwise, no one was even close in terms of playing level.

An argument could be made we weren't even top 4 in the world last season. Only won 3-0 at Camp Nou because of luck and some Messi Magic.

Among the big teams, we are a laughing stock in CL lately, second only to QSG.

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Because everybody watched the matches. They all saw Inter and Chelsea getting lucky in the first leg and going survival mode in the second. There was no doubt which team was better in those ties, and who played better overall.

Compare this to Liverpool and Roma, who actually trashed us and could've beaten us even worse, than a combined 7-0.

serghei said:

Lol, nowhere near the same. Valverde's team plays like shit. Pep's team played amazing, but sometimes players didn't take their chances and we got beat in games where we had 80% possession and 14-3 shots. The role of the manager is to make sure his team gets in front of goal, and to stop the other teams from doing that frequently. Guardiola teams did that, but still lost on some nights due to poor finishing mostly. Valverde's team was outplayed vs Roma and Liverpool. Not beaten, but outplayed as in they were taught a footballing lesson.

Just don't compare Pep's Barcelona with this monstruosity under Valverde. Just don't. It's night and day man.

Guys here who are anti Valverde don't think the team is beyond reproach. We have several issues that needs fixing. But the way you start to fix them is to sack the clueless guy on the bench, and bring someone who actually knows how to create a team which plays good football.

Valverde with his Atletico impressions is just not that.

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You keep taking the discussion away from what it really is. You are the one who is making those comparison not me, then blaming me for it
You are making it Pep vs EV which isn't, if you are gonna keep it this way then I am not sure there is any point of continuing it.
Pep struggled badly in keeping his team consistent away from home, this is the core of the discussion. Same for every other coach after him and even before him with Rijkaard.
Pep teams played like greatest team in history of football at home, the most dominant unbeatable team in history of CL. Away? he plays like a vulnerable team, probably like a top 5-8 teams in Europe but very vulnerable, we didn't create chance at equal rate, we didn't create wins at equal rate, we didn't score goals at equal rate like we did at home, even the esthetics weren't equal. Not even comparable.

EV teams play like they are a top 5 teams in Europe, but away they play like they are Dortmund or Lyon. More vulnerable and easy to take for a motivated team.
It is same level of downfall, but different starting point.

How the fuk this farmer Will manage Messi, Suarez, griezmann, Coutinho and dembele!!!!??? Fired him already for gods christ, Barça Will play way worse than before, he cant manage this players...

khaled_a_d said:

You keep taking the discussion away from what it really is. You are the one who is making those comparison not me, then blaming me for it
You are making it Pep vs EV which isn't, if you are gonna keep it this way then I am not sure there is any point of continuing it.
Pep struggled badly in keeping his team consistent away from home, this is the core of the discussion.
Pep teams played like greatest team in history of football at home, the most dominant unbeatable team in history of CL. Away? he plays like a vulnerable team, probably like a top 5-8 teams in Europe but very vulnerable, we didn't create chance at equal rate, we didn't create wins at equal rate, we didn't score goals at equal rate. Not even comparable.

EV teams play like they are a top 5 teams in Europe, but away they play like they are Dortmund or Lyon. More vulnerable and easy to take for a motivated team.
It is same level of downfall, but different starting point.

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You said we have always badly away in CL for a long time, with very few exception and implied that what is happening now under Valverde is not much different than what happened even with Pep. That was your angle.

Which is obviously false. With Pep we failed to get good results in away games where we played rather well. Which was obviously a negative too, but in a completely different way than the Valverde shitshow. And gave you clear examples that most of those bad results away under Guardiola are in games we actually played nice in and dominated while creating loads of chance and having absurdly high possession percentages.

How can you compare that with the complete humiliations that the team suffered vs Roma and Liverpool, where the team was dominated, and outplayed in the process. You completely disregard what happened in those games, and only look at stats.