Ernesto Valverde

El Gato

Villarato!
Player shone under Ten Hag last season. Player isn't shining, or you cannot comprehensively show me some kind of evidence how he is shining beyond your subjective opinion, under Valverde. This is what you should be saying. Why not just honestly say that instead of getting fixated on "x is a RM supporter bigging up RM players and playing down anything to do with Barcelona"? Really sometimes don't understand this clear beef and your warped perception of my intentions mate.

PS what's the basis for '80% of the socios want him gone'?
 

serghei

Senior Member
Player shone under Ten Hag last season. Player isn't shining, or you cannot comprehensively show me some kind of evidence how he is shining beyond your subjective opinion, under Valverde. This is what you should be saying. Why not just honestly say that instead of getting fixated on "x is a RM supporter bigging up RM players and playing down anything to do with Barcelona"? Really sometimes don't understand this clear beef and your warped perception of my intentions mate.

I don't get you either. Frenkie de Jong is a bonafide supertalent. 90m rated, best midfielder in CL, and instant impact at Barcelona, starting nearly every game and show bits of genius every game. Just because we have Valverde, who was never able to get the most out of his players (Messi excluded), doesn't mean anything regarding the potential of De Jong.

You tried to imply he is a doubtful talent, when he is the best under 24 midfielder in the world by a distance. Only reason why you'd do that is because he plays for Barcelona.

He was named the best midfielder in CL playing for a team like Ajax, dominating teams like Juve, Madrid, Bayern etc. What more proof do you want that he is a supertalent? Every sign is there.
 
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El Gato

Villarato!
You tried to imply he is a doubtful talent, when he is the best under 24 midfielder in the world by a distance. Only reason why you'd do that is because he plays for Barcelona.

"Imply". Does this strike you as something I said or something you think I said?
Seriously, you see digs in 95% of my comments about Barcelona. Fair enough. Not what I said or implied. Would be nice if you didn't resort to this strange 'discreditation', really needless, but I can only ask.

Back on topic.
I rate Frenkie. What I was saying was threefold:
a) you're sticking to phrases i.e. "Frenkie is a supertalent", "he got the x award" which don't add anything to the conversation about Barcelona and you then go on to say "he made instant impact at Barcelona - I simply ask - how? Similarly, "he showed bits of genius every game". Ok, evidence?
b) based on Frenkie playing in 90% of the games, there is no clear trend he improves the team and whenever he's not playing, there is no evidence the team suffer without him.. thus, what good is his talent to this current team? And subsequently...
...c) assuming things will improve institutionally, how long until you properly start taking advantage of this supertalent of his? De Gea waited a bit too long. Better watch out.

PS
Still waiting for the source to '80% of the socios' bit. And this isn't meant to undermine your credibility. Just haven't heard this before. Any chance?
 
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mc_lovin

Senior Member
Back on topic.
I rate Frenkie. What I was saying was threefold:
a) you're sticking to phrases i.e. "Frenkie is a supertalent", "he got the x award" which don't add anything to the conversation about Barcelona and you then go on to say "he made instant impact at Barcelona - I simply ask - how? Similarly, "he showed bits of genius every game". Ok, evidence?
b) based on Frenkie playing in 90% of the games, there is no clear trend he improves the team and whenever he's not playing, there is no evidence the team suffer without him.. thus, what good is his talent to this current team? And subsequently...
...c) assuming things will improve institutionally, how long until you properly start taking advantage of this supertalent of his? De Gea waited a bit too long. Better watch out.

a) I agree that Frenkie needs to have more impact, but every touch of him is pretty much spot on. There arent many players on that technical level. No idea what kind of "evidence" you expect.
b) We nearly have no data without Frenkie, just games we chose to rest him (aka easier ones). Its brave to try to find some weird correlation that we win irregardless of him.
c) Post Ernesto is a good guess, but even with him hes performing well enough (just look at motm polls etc, not the best source though).
 

Zidane82

Well-known member
a) I agree that Frenkie needs to have more impact, but every touch of him is pretty much spot on. There arent many players on that technical level. No idea what kind of "evidence" you expect.
b) We nearly have no data without Frenkie, just games we chose to rest him (aka easier ones). Its brave to try to find some weird correlation that we win irregardless of him.
c) Post Ernesto is a good guess, but even with him hes performing well enough (just look at motm polls etc, not the best source though).

Didn’t Messi rate FDJ as best in the world when he voted recently in the Balon D’or ??

He didn’t vote any other Barca players as I recall ..
 

El Gato

Villarato!
[MENTION=22947]mc_lovin[/MENTION]
I didn't look for that correlation. It was an observation. That said, if he was so 'impactful' and shone as was suggested, you'd see the team visibly have a more difficult time without him. Did they?
And anyway, this particular line of thought stems from the pretty visible contrast in influence of one player to the old 11 of Barcelona and Real Madrid.

The request for evidence is me asking serghei to put money where his mouth is, because he's notorious for blanket statements without data to back it up and going for 'anyone with eyes who bothered to watch Barcelona would see it', which is his routine way of talking to a Madrid supporter who he apparently believes has a negative agenda whenever he's steps onto this forum. And not in a malicious way - it's a request for information. Visual and statistical evidence isn't difficult to produce these days, a number of websites store recordings of games, people chop clips up and stick them on twitter for each and every club, especially those more popular ones. I'm sure you lot follow more of those than I do, so I don't see it as a stretch to ask you to produce something for us to watch together. I'd love to see this genius and the 'shine' that was referred to. Just to make sure it's not (god forbid) a routine hype machine for a player through suggestions he's doing something extraordinary in a Barca shirt that nobody else is capable of.
 

mc_lovin

Senior Member
[MENTION=22947]mc_lovin[/MENTION]
I didn't look for that correlation. It was an observation. That said, if he was so 'impactful' and shone as was suggested, you'd see the team visibly have a more difficult time without him. Did they?


Again, we simply dont have an awful lot of data. And to try to pin down team performances on single players (like you did with Fede as well) is extremely difficult. I mean we had one of our best games in CL vs Inter with mostly our 2nd team and youth players - does that say anything about Messi for example? I dont think so.

Regarding your Serghei remarks: Im with him on this one, just watch him play. There arent a lot of players you dont need stats to fullly appreciate, but some people seem to have a problem with that (just look at the Frenkie de Jong thread on redcafe ;D). Maybe its just a different perception of talent.
 

El Gato

Villarato!
Again, we simply dont have an awful lot of data. And to try to pin down team performances on single players (like you did with Fede as well) is extremely difficult. I mean we had one of our best games in CL vs Inter with mostly our 2nd team and youth players - does that say anything about Messi for example? I dont think so.

It doesn't. But it does say something about Messi + co. Mainly that they're old, possibly that they're predictable.

It's really not a reach to sometimes recognise the immense value of one player. Some people put it on systems, some on individuals and others look for a combination of both, and I do not discredit systemic issues, RM one certainly is dominantly a system-squad problem. But does it really surprise you to see Barcelona get boinked 2-0 away at Pizjuan in Copa without Messi for example? City looking like shit defensively without their only consistent CB? Liverpool pre and post December 2017? Mourinho's United with and without Zlatan in the club?
People's fascination with Fede is warranted because the contrast is night and day. Dude gets subbed off and we concede two goals vs PSG. He's liked by Modrić and Kroos who are rotated around him because they know it doesn't work with them together anymore, but either one with Fede does and makes us win, or more importantly, not have unexpected point losses when playing a regular 11. They're observations, supported by quotable evidence. And I can't understand how any of this is received as 'hype' which to me is rather pejorative these days.
 
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Alik

Moderator

El Gato

Villarato!
^
Makes you wonder whether MD actually give them set names for the successor choice and they end up ticking the fanciest manager of all or if they name the candidate themselves. Judging by this, nearly 1/3 of poll participants are delusional :lol:
 

mc_lovin

Senior Member
It doesn't. But it does say something about Messi + co. Mainly that they're old, possibly that they're predictable.

It's really not a reach to sometimes recognise the immense value of one player. Some people put it on systems, some on individuals and others look for a combination of both, and I do not discredit systemic issues, RM one certainly is dominantly a system-squad problem. But does it really surprise you to see Barcelona get boinked 2-0 away at Pizjuan in Copa without Messi for example? City looking like shit defensively without their only consistent CB? Liverpool pre and post December 2017? Mourinho's United with and without Zlatan in the club?
People's fascination with Fede is warranted because the contrast is night and day. Dude gets subbed off and we concede two goals vs PSG. He's liked by Modrić and Kroos who are rotated around him because they know it doesn't work with them together anymore, but either one with Fede does and makes us win, or more importantly, not have unexpected point losses when playing a regular 11. They're observations, supported by quotable evidence. And I can't understand how any of this is received as 'hype' which to me is rather pejorative these days.


I am not denying that Fede has a positive impact for you. The problems you have with Kroos and Modric are eerily similar to ours with Busquets and Rakitic, where seperating them alone is a good first step.

You try to put this positive effect when they are not playing together mainly on Valverde, but I dont know how much of that is down to his individual quality and not just workrate and "being there". We will see how much he can do when all eyes are on him. His technique looks kind of erratic. To me he looks more like a good system player than a game changer, nothing more, nothing less.
 

serghei

Senior Member
"Imply". Does this strike you as something I said or something you think I said?
Seriously, you see digs in 95% of my comments about Barcelona. Fair enough. Not what I said or implied. Would be nice if you didn't resort to this strange 'discreditation', really needless, but I can only ask.

Back on topic.
I rate Frenkie. What I was saying was threefold:
a) you're sticking to phrases i.e. "Frenkie is a supertalent", "he got the x award" which don't add anything to the conversation about Barcelona and you then go on to say "he made instant impact at Barcelona - I simply ask - how? Similarly, "he showed bits of genius every game". Ok, evidence?
b) based on Frenkie playing in 90% of the games, there is no clear trend he improves the team and whenever he's not playing, there is no evidence the team suffer without him.. thus, what good is his talent to this current team? And subsequently...
...c) assuming things will improve institutionally, how long until you properly start taking advantage of this supertalent of his? De Gea waited a bit too long. Better watch out.

PS
Still waiting for the source to '80% of the socios' bit. And this isn't meant to undermine your credibility. Just haven't heard this before. Any chance?

a) How?

Out of all players in the team he's the smartest mover, has the best stamina, probably the best technique (takes the fewest touches to advance the game), is closing the channels both in offense and defense, as well as being the best support player in the team, and possibly in the world too. One of the most important things in midfield play is to provide options for teammates around you, so they can pass you the ball. Most of the time, in derbies or matches against good teams, normal passing channels are blocked by default. So, doing build-up in these cases requires players who move frequently and in a smart way. Frenkie De Jong is currently the best player in the world in this area - teammate access, teammate support, smart movement. He constantly moves within his main area (when he is not used on the fucking wing by the moron we have as manager) to receive from other players, when these players are unable to complete a pass by default. No other player in the world does this as well as Frenkie.

Simply put, when a teammate in his area of action has issues passing out, or is caught in a pressing trap, Frenkie is the only starting midfielder who immediately makes approaching moves to help him out. A pressing trap is usually done in central areas to force teams to play wide. Despite of De Jong's quality in this area of the game, we still build wide an awfully lot because the manager is crap. If you watch Rakitic, or Vidal, or even Busquets, their willingness to constantly move and help connect the compartments when there is pressure on the build-up phase is very very low.

Frenkie de Jong is possibly the only midfielder today who has enough quality to play in the first 11 in 2009-2011 Barcelona instead of Sergio Busquets. No other young player in the world has De Jong's set of qualities to be part of that midfield.

b) Our game suffers without him, no doubt. Every Barca fan I think sees that. But you have to realize that, the way this team is built, Messi and Suarez score and create enough genius plays to win most games in La Liga, with or without De Jong.

c) There is no correlation between Barcelona and United. If things improve on the bench, De Jong will instantly improve his output. Right now, he's still making a mark and is the best midfielder in the team, but his potential is that of a Ballon d'Or level midfielder.
 

Xaviniesta

Senior Member
I watched the documentary and I must say he came across as a very likeable person. Too bad his tactics are straight up cancer
 

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