Ernesto Valverde

Wolfe said:

All fine players doing very well for themselves.

And resources aren’t eternal. Success built by one generation will last another, but not beyond that if you cock things up along the way. Best hope your next president has a sports project as #1 priority.

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Sure. Board + manager is the force that drives clubs like Barcelona and Madrid forward. Talent is always there in enough proportion.

On the plus side, crap managers like Valverde will have a hard time winning things and keeping their position once the lucky charm Messi is gone. So the pressure on the managers will intensify. Which means it is less likely to be winning La Ligas + Copas by playing like shit, being rescued by Messi.

And you're wrong about resources. Madrid were a mess post 2003, until 2010. That's 7 years. They easily came back strong because they were still a huge club all this time.

Wolfe said:

All fine players doing very well for themselves.

And resources aren’t eternal. Nor is the ability to attract marquee names. Success built by one generation will last another, but not beyond that if you cock things up along the way. Best hope your next president has a sports project as #1 priority.

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They are doing well for themselves, but not for Madrid. The benchmark for Real (or Barcelona for that matter) is finding those 3 or 4 generation defining talents like you did with Ronaldo, Marcelo, Modric and Ramos and we did with Xavi, Iniesta, Alves and Messi. The rest is replaceable. Im hopeful we found one in Frenkie and you may get one with Mbappe, but other than that you just bought more lottery tickets recently.

To make it clearer: I have no doubt Madrid and Barcelona will have very good quality in nearly all positions in the future, but those few guys who make or break a team will be the difference. And there it looks much more even (or even favourable for us) than just looking at the "decent" transfers.

Rory said:

We need a good-very good manager to start here soon. How long will Messi be here? 3 years max? That means we need someone to come in so they can have at least 1 or 2 years with the squad while Messi is being phased out so that we don't dramatically drop down the table when he does leave. Screw the idea of a manager being able to give Messi a Swan song, that was ruined the last 2 years by Valverde and a few terrible performances. We need to plan for the next decade.

Real Madrid have: Vinicius (he's done ok for a 19 year old), Rodrygo (18), Fede Valverde (21), Eder Militao (21), Mendy (24), Odegaard (21), Achraf Hakimi (21), Kubo 18.

Who do we have? Frenkie (22), Arthur (23 - injured too often at the moment), Lenglet (24), Fati (17), and a few unproven youngsters (Todibo, Araujo, Carles Perez).

Next few transfer windows need to be focused on improving this, not emptying our accounts on Neymar or some other €100m flop.

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People here seem to make a habit of worrying about Madrid. So far they have yet to lay a glove on us in 10 years. Hazard was meant to win the league for them people said here in the summer. 1 goal in half a season doesn't win leagues. And as for the future I would not swap :

FRENK over Valverde ( who has had a handfull of good games in his career)

Pedri over Vinicius (only because Vinicius end product is too bad to ever play for a big club consistently . Pedri at least has a chance.)

Todibo over Militao ( from the little we gave to go off, both players could go either way tbf but I like Tods a lot.)

Fati and Rodrygo is too close to call. I've always like Rodrygo and thought we should have bought him.

Arthur and Ode are again close despite being different players. Arthur has shown more at a higher level though imho.

Mendy hasn't shown anything to suggest he will be world class. Hakimi looks a crack but a great full back won't change the tide on his own. Kubo? He will be at Getafe in 3 years. His hype machine is next level because they think they stole him from us. Our future looks just as bright as theirs.

mc_lovin said:

They are doing well for themselves, but not for Madrid. The benchmark for Real (or Barcelona for that matter) is finding those 3 or 4 generation defining talents like you did with Ronaldo, Marcelo, Modric and Ramos and we did with Xavi, Iniesta, Alves and Messi. The rest is replaceable. Im hopeful we found one in Frenkie and you may get one with Mbappe, but other than that you just bought more lottery tickets recently.

To make it clearer: I have no doubt Madrid and Barcelona will have very good quality in nearly all positions in the future, but those few guys who make or break a team will be the difference. And there it looks much more even (or even favourable for us) than just looking at the "decent" transfers.

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I’d look at it this way - the club invested 45M in cash for all three of the mentioned above. If they did, it means they’re supposed to have talent and room to grow, without necessarily stating where the ceiling is. And they did grow at Madrid, no question. Ceballos is the only one that arguably hasn’t changed much, but there’s equal amount of evidence he has when he played for Spain raising the question of team fit and allowing us to dismiss the idea he’s not good enough. Which means the investment is likely well placed. In all cases.
I don’t really understand the criticism. Many times I hear them and it seems to come down to one thing - x person (I.e. serghei) read something in Marca or AS about them being Ballon DOr material and projects it as a flawed view of the entire fanbase. Which is somewhat tiresome.
Most at Barca would have loved to have these 3 for 45M total, guarantee you that.

Who’s the make or break name? Frenkie at this stage isn’t and doesn’t add qualities that unequivocally shift games in your favour. By comparison Fede does that for Madrid, as supported by stats (Madrid scoring and conceding in equal measure when he’s not playing). Arthur for sure isn’t. Fati is arguably at the same stage as Rodrygo. So I don’t agree you’ve ’struck gold’ more than us, not enough evidence for me.

Wolfe said:

I’d look at it this way - the club invested 45M in cash for all three of the mentioned above. If they did, it means they’re supposed to have talent and room to grow, without necessarily stating where the ceiling is. And they did grow at Madrid, no question. Ceballos is the only one that arguably hasn’t changed much, but there’s equal amount of evidence he has when he played for Spain raising the question of team fit and allowing us to dismiss the idea he’s not good enough. Which means the investment is likely well placed. In all cases.
I don’t really understand the criticism. Many times I hear them and it seems to come down to one thing - x person (I.e. serghei) read something in Marca or AS about them being Ballon DOr material and projects it as a flawed view of the entire fanbase. Which is somewhat tiresome.
Most at Barca would have loved to have these 3 for 45M total, guarantee you that.

Who’s the make or break name? Frenkie at this stage isn’t and doesn’t add qualities that unequivocally shift games in your favour. By comparison Fede does that for Madrid, as supported by stats (Madrid scoring and conceding in equal measure when he’s not playing). Arthur for sure isn’t. Fati is arguably at the same stage as Rodrygo. So I don’t agree you’ve ’struck gold’ more than us, not enough evidence for me.

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The thing is you need them to look great, no? Otherwise you cant really say that Madrid looks better equipped for the future. We would have no problem matching Rodrygo, Vinicius, Odegaard etc at current level in 4-5years. For us there was some talk that we are betting heavily on Fati and Ilaix in La Masia for example, but I dont expect them to succeed as well. Its nice to have talents like that, but they say nothing about your (or our) strength in the future. Thats a dangerous game to play.

Regarding Frenkie-Valverde: Maybe I am just getting carried away, but Frenkie looks absolutely mindblowing. His technique is flawless. I dont see that with Valverde at all (maybe bias). He looks more like a supplemental type of player, not a midfield maestro you build your team around.

Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor said:

People here seem to make a habit of worrying about Madrid. So far they have yet to lay a glove on us in 10 years. Hazard was meant to win the league for them people said here in the summer. 1 goal in half a season doesn't win leagues. And as for the future I would not swap :

FRENK over Valverde ( who has had a handfull of good games in his career)

Pedri over Vinicius (only because Vinicius end product is too bad to ever play for a big club consistently . Pedri at least has a chance.)

Todibo over Militao ( from the little we gave to go off, both players could go either way tbf but I like Tods a lot.)

Fati and Rodrygo is too close to call. I've always like Rodrygo and thought we should have bought him.

Arthur and Ode are again close despite being different players. Arthur has shown more at a higher level though imho.

Mendy hasn't shown anything to suggest he will be world class. Hakimi looks a crack but a great full back won't change the tide on his own. Kubo? He will be at Getafe in 3 years. His hype machine is next level because they think they stole him from us. Our future looks just as bright as theirs.

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Yeah some fair points but I don't agree with others. Frenkie is undoubtedly the better talent out of him and Valverde but Valverde is still clearly a player who can start for Madrid for years, Frenkie being better than him doesn't change that.

Having Pedri over Vinicius is definitely unfair, one plays in the segunda division and the other has started and scored for Real Madrid in the Champions league and la liga, putting aside Vinicius' finishing being a bit of a meme he's playing in competitions levels above Pedri.

Todibo might be sold by our dumbass board.

Again with Odegaard even if Arthur is slightly better (Odegaard has probably been in the top 5 la liga players this season) it doesn't take away that Odegaard could be a starter for years to come.

Unless Todibo develops into a decent centre back we have no future at the moment in that position, we have no young fullbacks coming through, Wague looks meh. Frenkie and Arthur could be 2/3 starters in midfield for the next few years which is a great position to be in. In attack we have Fati who could yet be a flop.

It's probably not as doom and gloom as I'm saying I just think right now Madrid are in a position where they are ready for the future and we're still thinking about spending money we don't have on Neymar ffs. This summer window we need a replacement for Pique, if Firpo isn't good enough a replacement for Alba and a replacement for Suarez, I don't have faith in the board that they will make the right decisions. We do have some good young players though and I can't wait to see them develop under a real manager.

mc_lovin said:

We would have no problem matching Rodrygo, Vinicius, Odegaard etc at current level in 4-5years. (...) Its nice to have talents like that, but they say nothing about your (or our) strength in the future. Thats a dangerous game to play.

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Thing is, you might. The reason we buy them young is because if they're quality at 21-22, asking price is VERY high. See Jović. And you cannot buy 4-8 separate promising players 21+ to replace who might need replacing in the next few years. It is only pragmatic to spend less early so you don't have to pay 100-120 for a CB like Militao should he start ripping it up for some average team like Man United by 2024.

Regarding Frenkie-Valverde: Maybe I am just getting carried away, but Frenkie looks absolutely mindblowing. His technique is flawless. I dont see that with Valverde at all (maybe bias). He looks more like a supplemental type of player, not a midfield maestro you build your team around.

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Profile isn't what I meant, for sure Frenkie is different. Fede is a 'llegador', arrives in the box, somewhat of a mini-Yaya with an already impressive passing range, which was also evident in his Uruguay U20s. What we were talking about is the effect a player has on the rest. Right now, Fede is somebody we can't leave out of the team or we lose control of matches. And that's not meant to hype him, it's a statement of fact evidenced by numbers:


Difficult to say what will happen later. Frenkie's experience counts for a lot and no doubt he has the quality, but he hasn't left a mark just yet.

Wolfe said:

so you don't have to pay 100-120 for a CB like Militao should he start ripping it up for some average team like Man United by 2024.

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Don't show this to Copperpot

Wolfe said:

Thing is, you might. The reason we buy them young is because if they're quality at 21-22, asking price is VERY high. See Jović. And you cannot buy 4-8 separate promising players 21+ to replace who might need replacing in the next few years. It is only pragmatic to spend less early so you don't have to pay 100-120 for a CB like Militao should he start ripping it up for some average team like Man United by 2024.

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We just fundamentally disagree regarding the evaluation of talent. You buy them now for 40-50ME and hope they become 100ME players by the time they are 21. But I honestly dont see a difference between Fati and Rodrygo. We will see how everything turns out, but claiming you are better prepared for the future is highly speculative.

Wolfe said:

Profile isn't what I meant, for sure Frenkie is different. Fede is a 'llegador', arrives in the box, somewhat of a mini-Yaya with an already impressive passing range, which was also evident in his Uruguay U20s. What we were talking about is the effect a player has on the rest. Right now, Fede is somebody we can't leave out of the team or we lose control of matches. And that's not meant to hype him, it's a statement of fact evidenced by numbers:


Difficult to say what will happen later. Frenkie's experience counts for a lot and no doubt he has the quality, but he hasn't left a mark just yet.

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I didnt talk about profiles or impact, I talked about talent. Valverde has been very good for you, especially in your midfield setup, but individually he doesnt strike me as a worldclass player or talent. Just watch him and Frenkie run with the ball. But I am not denying the need for players like him, you cant have 11 all time greats.

And Frenkie hasnt left a mark? Hes pretty much our only brightspot bar Messi and Ter Stegen this season.

mc_lovin said:

We just fundamentally disagree regarding the evaluation of talent. You buy them now for 40-50ME and hope they become 100ME players by the time they are 21. But I honestly dont see a difference between Fati and Rodrygo to be honest. We will see how everything turns out, but claiming you are better prepared for the future is highly speculative.

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Perhaps it is, we can agree to disagree. To me it comes down to securing players you know you will need soon within a 3-5 year window. I think it's more speculative to say you'll be able to do so in the next 5 years (assuming they're already out there being watched) with such prices on the market and seeming unwillingness to invest in relatively unproven youth. But to each of its own.

And Frenkie hasnt left a mark? Hes pretty much our only brightspot bar Messi and Ter Stegen this season.

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Maybe I'm not paying enough attention, but until now I thought you could drop him rather easily and the performance wouldn't change a whole lot. He's been everpresent other than the 3 games he's come off the bench for and you've won each one without an issue. Granted he's not the kind of player to prevent you losing the game either and you've lost thrice, but he hasn't really done anything of note when I've watched him. Not the greatest fit among the old dogs so I'm thinking it may take a fair amount of time before you really see this pay off and by that time a lot could happen, but assuming he performs to his fullest, he is likely to get frustrated and drop a level because of it. Only my opinion though.

Lol. Frenkie de Jong's influence appears limited because we have a manager who can't set up a proper midfield to save his life. . The fact that he still shines under someone like Valverde makes you think how great he'd be under a top manager. We're talking best midfielder in the world status here in 1-2 years with the proper manager.

If Frenkie would be Madrid's player Wolfe wouldn't stop talking about him. Instead, he's limited to praising Fede Valverde to high heavens.

I'd say you certainly aren't paying enough attention. Not maybe. You don't even try to be somewhat objective. Bigging up every decent Madrid prospect and bringing down Barcelona's talents, even young superstars like De Jong who are named best midfielders in the Champions League at 21.

serghei said:

Instead, he's limited to praising Fede Valverde to high heavens.

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Pointing out correlative stats is 'praising Fede to high heavens'?

even young superstars like De Jong who are named best midfielders in the Champions League at 21.

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Not as a Barcelona player tho, eh?

You keep worrying about me being objective while your assessments are as subjective as they come resorting to your own 'eye test' when assessing player performance. I raised a simple point - how do we measure Frenkie's 'shininess' under Valverde when the team doesn't seem to suffer without him and doesn't really get elevated by him? And you cannot answer me without turning the question back around.

Any verifiable evidence that would stand up to scrutiny?

Except Valverde won't be here for long, 1 year past this season, and even that is a stretch (80% of the socios want him replaced btw). So the player not being incredible under Valverde isn't really note-worthy in judging his influence at the club post Valverde, is it? In this case, the player's quality is what matters, not what dumb Valverde does with him. The talent and the quality of De Jong is unquestionable, beyond any doubt.

serghei said:

Except Valverde won't be here for long, 1 year past this season, and even that is a stretch (80% of the socios want him replaced btw). So the player not being incredible under Valverde isn't really note-worthy in judging his influence at the club post Valverde, is it? In this case, the player's quality is what matters, not what dumb Valverde does with him. The talent and the quality of De Jong is unquestionable, beyond any doubt.

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Wow I thought socios were supportive of Valverde. What happened? Clasico performance was too bad?

FinBarcelonafan said:

Wow I thought socios were supportive of Valverde. What happened? Clasico performance was too bad?

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No, they finally got the memo, 1 year too late at least. It's been obvious Valverde adds nothing, and every time our stars fail to produce individual magic, we are shit.