Lionel Messi - v7

Tackle said:

What complete bollocks. I have been one of the users most critical of Leo this season, but to suggest he isn't world class anymore is lunacy.

Go on mate, name the "plenty" of players that have been better this season. Let's hear your list.

Click to expand...

Lewa, M?ller, Werner, KDB, Sterling, whole Liverpool attack, even freaking Fernandes after his transfer to ManUtd, Papu Gomez, Dybala.
All these players have their roles in their teams and have played on a world class level. And it is sad that players that are nowhere near Messi's level of talent perform much better than him.

Problem with Messi is he refuses to play in a clear role and be part of a cohesive unit. His world class abilities on the ball are brought down by his lack of movement, lack of positional play and lack of defensive contribution.
And big and sad aspect of it all is his power behind the scenes which has a bad influence on the team.

Blaugrana Bull said:

Lewa, M?ller, Werner, KDB, Sterling, whole Liverpool attack, even freaking Fernandes after his transfer to ManUtd, Papu Gomez, Dybala.
All these players have their roles in their teams and have played on a world class level. And it is sad that players that are nowhere near Messi's level of talent perform much better than him.

Problem with Messi is he refuses to play in a clear role and be part of a cohesive unit. His world class abilities on the ball are brought down by his lack of movement, lack of positional play and lack of defensive contribution.
And big and sad aspect of it all is his power behind the scenes which has a bad influence on the team.

Click to expand...

Since the restart, this is the worst I've seen Messi ever play, but he is still world class. Imo setien has to take some blame, whatever you say about valverde, he got the best out of Messi in his 2 full seasons in charge.

Messi has crap stamina and work rate, that's fine, but he would look so much better than he is atm under a good manager. If you look at the players you listed, they have something in common, they play under good managers. Everyone knows about pep and klopp so I won't mention their players. I'll use flick as an example. Last year Muller was on the bench, kovac didn't know how to use him, this year, he might have had his best ever season. Lewa has had his best ever season, davies, gnabry have had breakout years. Flick actually has the best points to game ratio at bayern, even better than pep and heyneckes.

As good as Messi is, he could still use a good manager. The whole squad would be playing better under a good manager

Batistuta9 said:

Since the restart, this is the worst I've seen Messi ever play, but he is still world class. Imo setien has to take some blame, whatever you say about valverde, he got the best out of Messi in his 2 full seasons in charge.

Messi has crap stamina and work rate, that's fine, but he would look so much better than he is atm under a good manager. If you look at the players you listed, they have something in common, they play under good managers. Everyone knows about pep and klopp so I won't mention their players so I'll use flick as an example. Last year Muller was on the bench, kovac didn't know how to use him, this year, he might have had his best ever season. Lewa has had his best ever season, davies, gnabry have had breakout years. Flick actually has the best points to game ratio at bayern, even better than pep and heyneckes.

As good as Messi is, he could still use a good manager. The whole squad would be playing better under a good manager

Click to expand...

Blame the midfield, blame the manager, blame the forwards.. blame everyone but Messi seems to be a trend now. if you put Messi under Klopp, he'd bench him. if you put Messi under Pep? he'd sell him as he did Dinho. no top managers want to coach the current Barca as they know hes bigger than the club and he runs the entire show.

I can totally blame Valverde and many of these average to shit players for past performances when Messi was doing his best to carry us BUT Messi is just as much to blame nowadays. His lack of movement, workrate and tactical discipline is destroying our team shape both in offense and defense. everyone knows what Messi is going to do also and they are winning the ball from him easier than ever before, its painfully obvious.

when you have the captain and most dangerous attacker dropping deep into midfield, attempting some retarded dribble basically telegraphed at this stage, losing the ball and then standing there while the rest of the team scramble to regain the ball; what sort of an example is that setting? I'm not asking him to do a James Milner and sprint up and down the pitch for 90mins but atleast put some effort in if you lose the ball.

GOAT or not, we shouldn't have to buy players to cover and build around a 33 year old player because he wants to rest during matches

then you have his love afair with Suarez, a #9 who cant pass a ball, cant run, can barely move and hasn't scored a goal away in the CL for 4 fucking years.

Messi doesn't have the fire in him anymore and i cant say i blame him but its sickening to watch

Blaugrana Bull said:

Lewa, Muller, Werner, KDB, Sterling, whole Liverpool attack, even freaking Fernandes after his transfer to ManUtd, Papu Gomez, Dybala.
All these players have their roles in their teams and have played on a world class level. And it is sad that players that are nowhere near Messi's level of talent perform much better than him.

Click to expand...

Lewa, KDB and maybe Mane have an argument from that lot for being better this season.

Sterling and Salah have been very inconsistent and frustrating at points despite playing under vastly superior managers. Firmino plays his role well, but his output is not remotely close to Leo's.

Dybala and Gomez have been excellent in the times I've watched them, but they don't decide matches at the same rate as even this older, declined Leo does. Muller has likewise been great, but he plays in a very well drilled Bayern side with a machine striker in front of him and a much better supporting cast.

Not watched much of United after the restart so cannot speak on Fernandes, same with Werner. Doubt I take either over Leo though. Put those two in this side in place of Messi and we wouldn't be doing any better.

At worst Leo has still been a top 5 attacker in the world this season. No other player in history that has produced a season of 22 goals, 21 assists has been argued against being world class. That is not to say we should not be expecting more and better, but saying he isn't world class anymore is silly.

Problem with Messi is he refuses to play in a clear role and be part of a cohesive unit. His world class abilities on the ball are brought down by his lack of movement, lack of positional play and lack of defensive contribution.
And big and sad aspect of it all is his power behind the scenes which has a bad influence on the team.

Click to expand...

No problem with any of this. We are getting close to a point where Leo's tactical hindrance, wages, issues off the ball and power within the club are starting to outweigh his genius on the pitch. This is a conversation that must be had.

Blaugrana Bull said:

And btw. to make my stance clear:
I think the whole team is responsible for the weak state we are in. Of course not only them but first of all Bartomeu and the board who have been destroying the club in the last couple of years.
I just think that is not the team that pulls Messi down and it is not Messi who pulls the whole team down. Everyone is responsible and Messi is a part of it. But in here it is basically unheard of to criticise Messi which is ridiculous.

Click to expand...

You have a point, because it's how you play that counts, not what qualities you have. His game is all over the place at the moment. Never seen before a player at this level doing whatever he feels like and every other player having to alter their game in order to try to compensate that.

Opponent could be 5m away from Messi and going up and he'd allow him to do it, instead of closing him down. Literally no other player in world football is allowed this nonchalance in 2020 football. Nobody. Who counts that when determining Messi's level? Nobody.

Just watched bits of Madrid vs Granada. All act as one. All track down and close spaces. That's how they keep clean sheets and beat teams 1-0 to death. It's not because their defenders turned into peak Maldinis after Lopetegui was sacked. It's because they all do their part, and nobody is bigger than the team.

The team and Messi both are on a downward spiral. The team is old, and unfit, and Messi is playing chaotically, with little clarity. His game is muddled up by his obsession of pretending he is in any way similar to Xavi. Xavi would school him in midfield as far as play making, workrate, movement, defensive aspects, just like Messi would school Xavi in scoring and dribbling in the last third.

Batistuta9 said:

Since the restart, this is the worst I've seen Messi ever play, but he is still world class. Imo setien has to take some blame, whatever you say about valverde, he got the best out of Messi in his 2 full seasons in charge.

Click to expand...

Take some blame? The guy was basically told to shut the fuck up. He wanted to change things, was put in his place by the veterans (Messi, Suarez and Pique basically), and from then he clearly started to backtrack and adopted an EV type speech.

Use logic here. Setien had some plans, veterans didn't like them, and this is basically EV Barca 2.0, where the manager is for decorating purposes, trying to work around what can't be touched. Man learned the hard way so to speak .

You can blame Setien for some things, sure, but he doesn't decide shit. If the veterans are playing like shit, it's their fault. I also used to think maybe Messi is told to play in certain areas. But it's looking like it's the opposite. Messi plays where he wants, and if the managers don't like it, he will kick a fuss, and put them in their place, because he's Messi and he calls the shots.

serghei said:

You have a point, because it's how you play that counts, not what qualities you have. His game is all over the place at the moment. Never seen before a player at this level doing whatever he feels like and every other player having to alter their game in order to try to compensate that.

Opponent could be 5m away from Messi and going up and he'd allow him to do it, instead of closing him down. Literally no other player in world football is allowed this nonchalance in 2020 football. Nobody. Who counts that when determining Messi's level? Nobody.

Just watched bits of Madrid vs Granada. All act as one. All track down and close spaces. That's how they keep clean sheets and beat teams 1-0 to death. It's not because their defenders turned into peak Maldinis after Lopetegui was sacked. It's because they all do their part, and nobody is bigger than the team.

The team and Messi both are on a downward spiral. The team is old, and unfit, and Messi is playing chaotically, with little clarity. His game is muddled up by his obsession of pretending he is in any way similar to Xavi. Xavi would school him in midfield as far as play making, workrate, movement, defensive aspects, just like Messi would school Xavi in scoring and dribbling in the last third.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

In North American sports, the term for what Messi is currently doing is called hero ball.

Usually, the achieved effect is unmitigated disaster, which also checks out here.

KingLeo10 said:

Agreed.

In North American sports, the term for what Messi is currently doing is called hero ball.

Usually, the achieved effect is unmitigated disaster, which also checks out here.

Click to expand...

The term sounds legit.

For me, the problem is he takes over positions that come with duties that he has no interest in taking. It's a big problem of perception and principle. What we're seeing is Messi taking over midfielder's positions and midfielders doing runs to do the role Messi vacates.

This is fucking horrible. Messi has no interest to do the role of the midfielder, because then he'd have to run off the ball and defend the position he's just assumed. Does he do that? Lol no. It's like one player less when the ball is lost.

It's as if Messi wants to do the role of the midfielder only when he has the ball. When other players have the ball and he has to move to get in possession, or when the opponent has the ball and he has to defend, he switches off.

serghei said:

The term sounds legit.

For me, the problem is he takes over positions that come with duties that he has no interest in taking. It's a big problem of perception and principle. What we're seeing is Messi taking over midfielder's positions and midfielders doing runs to do the role Messi vacates.

This is fucking horrible. Messi has no interest to do the role of the midfielder, because then he'd have to run off the ball and defend the position he's just assumed. Does he do that? Lol no. It's like one player less when the ball is lost.

It's as if Messi wants to do the role of the midfielder only when he has the ball. When other players have the ball and he has to move to get in possession, or when the opponent has the ball and he has to defend, he switches off.

Click to expand...

Bingo. He can't be the offensive midfielder.

Messi should stop pretending he is a midfielder. He sees himself as one, however, as he said so in an interview or two. No midfielder tries Hollywood passes with little accuracy or suicide dribbles from deep so frequently in a game. No midfielder does as little work without the ball as him as well, both defensively and offensively. Messi is non-existent if the ball is not at his feet - he does little work to make himself available when we are in possession, instead choosing the easy route and dropping to the DM area where teams cam neutralize him with ease. His trademark tendency to support attacks with the second wave by arriving late in the opposition area coupled with further loss of pace with stamina means that he ends up being the furthest attacking player from goal while initially being the nearest one whenever we have a chance for a counter-attack.

At this stage of his career he pretty much has to play as an old-fashioned #10 though.

-He isn't fast enough to play as a RW like some of you people are dreaming about...This isn't 2009 or 2015.

-He doesn't have the stamina to play as a CM.

-He can't play as a False 9,because he needs to have a striker in front of him.Otherwise he'll try to dribble past 3 players and fail 9 times out of 10.


Messi can play as a #10,but not in this team. You need pacey wingers, a striker that can actually pass the ball, fullbacks that can attack properly and a decent midfield to bring the ball forward to him.

bismp said:

At this stage of his career he pretty much has to play as an old-fashioned #10 though.

-He isn't fast enough to play as a RW like some of you people are dreaming about...This isn't 2009 or 2015.

-He doesn't have the stamina to play as a CM.

-He can't play as a False 9,because he needs to have a striker in front of him.Otherwise he'll try to dribble past 3 players and fail 9 times out of 10.


Messi can play as a #10,but not in this team. You need pacey wingers, a striker that can actually pass the ball, fullbacks that can attack properly and a decent midfield to bring the ball forward to him.

Click to expand...

essentially we need to build a team around him as a #10 which is a dying breed in football nowadays and building said team around a 33 year old would be ridiculous even if it is the GOAT.

Givenchy said:

essentially we need to build a team around him as a #10 which is a dying breed in football nowadays and building said team around a 33 year old would be ridiculous even if it is the GOAT.

Click to expand...

Try 35 years old by the time we build that team.

Messi could only be a 10 or a ss at this point?
Or weirdly enough a Pirlo like long balling dmf in a quick counter set up.

raskolnikov said:

Messi could only be a 10 or a ss at this point?
Or weirdly enough a Pirlo like long balling dmf in a quick counter set up.

Click to expand...

Pirlo gave a lot off the ball. Messi is nowhere near in the effort department. If Messi had okay-sh movement and workrate at least, he'd be able to play as a midfielder. But he is terrible at this, and for this reason he can't play deep without being a liability whenever a ball is lost.

It's just a mix of complacency, age, and ego. I expect him to have his little spot to loaf around in, then give you something good when he feels like it. That's what being world class is.