10 - Lionel Messi

[xxxxxx]

I also feel he's forcing a lot of his shots. Another indication that he doesn't trust his teammates. He also has a bit of bad luck with quite a few shots hitting the bar or post.

[Laplacian]

When you score one in 50 shots, and some of those hit the post, I'd say he was lucky to hit the post rather than unlucky. Alongside Griezmann, he is getting clear shots on goal. Awful lots of mental gymnastics to avoid seeing the obvious.

He's 33, it happens. So many football greats were already retired by that age. Pele Cruyff, Maradona, Ronaldo, Henry, and many more were done by then. We were lucky to see him being elite for so long in the first place.

[Daniele]

A team had shots from favourable positions in the last two matches without him, though.

What does it say?
1. a team is not creating chances from good positions at all?
2. or Messi is not getting into a good positions due to him dropping to a CM position?

Braithwaite and Griezmann had quite an easy chances in the last two matches.

Interesting.

If you'll reply that Messi needs to drop deep because a team is not creating enough = we created more than enough without him on a field in the last two matches.

So:
1. He is dropping deep for no reason. He just wants to be involved in every single action.
2. He is shooting from bad position because he is guilty for it with his dropping too deep, inability to dribble past 5 players from a CM position, a lack of pace and poor off the ball movement

I tend to consider that it is not a single player problem, but a collective one.
And I believe that a Barcelona without Messi would by no means be a better team.
Surely it would be better if he were administered better, without necessarily making him play 15 times in a week and giving him the good rest.

Name me one user here that complains about his creation. Literally everyone's complaining about his finishing, and to a lesser degree his pace, work-rate, and movement.

Also, "unfavorable positions to score" lmao. I swear the vast majority of those shots are clear chances on goal.

Dude there's no need to laugh at other people's opinions.
Personally, I don't think Messi missed so many easy chances.
Having said that his finalization has worsened (also due to a pinch of bad luck)
Quite often in the last few months I have seen him search for the goal with quite complicated solutions (often shots in the mirror stopped by the goalkeeper, or slightly out of an angle)

[sikkboy]

I tend to consider that it is not a single player problem, but a collective one.
And I believe that a Barcelona without Messi would by no means be a better team.
Surely it would be better if he were administered better, without necessarily making him play 15 times in a week and giving him the good rest.





Dude there's no need to laugh at other people's opinions.
Personally, I don't think Messi missed so many easy chances.
Having said that his finalization has worsened (also due to a pinch of bad luck)
Quite often in the last few months I have seen him search for the goal with quite complicated solutions (often shots in the mirror stopped by the goalkeeper, or slightly out of an angle)

There's no doubt he's been off, been off this whole calendar year in fact, with the occasional top game aside, and those are mainly ones where he's running the game as opposed to finishing. He seems to have lost a bit of power in his shots, and of course the extra half step that gives him the little bit of space to get his trademark bottome left hand corner shot in.

Since the return of Covid it's been a slow climb back I'd say but there are signs that he's playing with a bit more intensity, and especially for his country. For instance in the game vs Peru in La Paz I was actually taken aback at the effort he made n that one, probably one of the hardest working players in the team. I suspect there's definitely an element of conserving what he has left in the Barca games, which is probably understandable from a player's perspective if he know's he's off in the new year. From a steadfast zealot fan of the club I can see how they'd be a bit miffed. If it was my club's legend easing down a bit I wouldn't be that bothered actually. If he's getting played then the coach obviously thinks teh player is worthy of his place.

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

This is correct but there is another consideration to be made.
Many of the shots are from more unfavorable positions to score:
an indication of a lower impact of the team's offensive play

its more because of his bad off-ball movement. I saw plenty situations when he could run into the space but he rather stands before the box.

[serghei]

Only football novices don't understand how important things like tactical discipline and movement are. Guys who go on some stats sites and think they actually understand the game because they post some numbers and stats out of context.

This is the archetypal current Messi fanboy. Guys who have a very limited understanding of tactical aspects. We're wasting our type explaining to someone why a guy who doesn't respect his role and positions fucks up the whole pressing setup of a team for example. Like, when Alba does pressing instead of Messi vs Bayern in that video. How damn hard it is to understand such a basic tactical aspect. Such as when your fullback doing pressing upfront, 60m from his normal position, this causes enormous positional problems in defense once Bayern (easily) beats the press.

As long as Messi does what he wants on the field, and walks for extended periods of time, he is a problem. If by some chance, he corrects those things, rests more, runs more in the games he plays, and learns not to mess up our tactics and positions by doing what he wants, then we can talk.

[mc_lovin]

I get the feeling you created your own personal purgatory here. There is no actual discussion, just repeating the same talking points over and over again from either (extreme) side without any nuance. And keep missing the other sides arguments.

I could be wrong though, no way in hell I am going to read the last few pages.

[sikkboy]

I get the feeling you created your own personal purgatory here. There is no actual discussion, just repeating the same talking points over and over again from either (extreme) side without any nuance. And keep missing the other sides arguments.

I could be wrong though, no way in hell I am going to read the last few pages.

No, you're 100% right. I actually had this written ' same shite every time' literally 30 seconds ago but binned it as I know I'd just get sucked into a good for nothing discussion I've had a million times before, and all on a gorgeous day here.

[Daniele]

Only football novices don't understand how important things like tactical discipline and movement are. Guys who go on some stats sites and think they actually understand the game because they post some numbers and stats out of context.

This is the archetypal current Messi fanboy. Guys who have a very limited understanding of tactical aspects. We're wasting our type explaining to someone why a guy who doesn't respect his role and positions fucks up the whole pressing setup of a team for example. Like, when Alba does pressing instead of Messi vs Bayern in that video. How damn hard it is to understand such a basic tactical aspect. Such as when your fullback doing pressing upfront, 60m from his normal position, this causes enormous positional problems in defense once Bayern (easily) beats the press.

As long as Messi does what he wants on the field, and walks for extended periods of time, he is a problem. If by some chance, he corrects those things, rests more, runs more in the games he plays, and learns not to mess up our tactics and positions by doing what he wants, then we can talk.

You see, I agree on the importance of tactical discipline, and above all of the role of the coach.
I also agree on being critical of the players, and, as I explained, analyzing the reasons for Messi's poor performance.
But I do not recognize, having read you, that you have any right to feel a connoisseur of tactics.
I think coaches are not so foolish as to field players who harm the team. And that the whole narrative of the tyrant Messi who decides the formation in place of the coach is a conspiracy-minded delusion that only in this forum can have space.
As an aggravating circumstance, it is extremely boring and ridiculous this fact of labeling as Messi fanboy all those who have a different view.
That said, the question boils down to two different points of view:
Who believes that this Barcelona would do better without Messi, who believes the opposite...
points of view

[malvolio]

"Regardless of the fact that [Messi's] contract expires at the end of this season, because he is the present and at the same time living history of world football and of Barca, I intend to propose to our members via a referendum for the stadium to be renamed the 'Camp Nou Leo Messi." - Emili Rousaud, presidential candidate.

serghei, BBZ in tears, JamDav at the supermarket buying tons of napkins, the other puppies barking like mad

[sikkboy]

You see, I agree on the importance of tactical discipline, and above all of the role of the coach.
I also agree on being critical of the players, and, as I explained, analyzing the reasons for Messi's poor performance.
But I do not recognize, having read you, that you have any right to feel a connoisseur of tactics.
I think coaches are not so foolish as to field players who harm the team. And that the whole narrative of the tyrant Messi who decides the formation in place of the coach is a conspiracy-minded delusion that only in this forum can have space.
As an aggravating circumstance, it is extremely boring and ridiculous this fact of labeling as Messi fanboy all those who have a different view.
That said, the question boils down to two different points of view:
Who believes that this Barcelona would do better without Messi, who believes the opposite...
points of view

That's a good post, Daniele.

[messi2140]

"Regardless of the fact that [Messi's] contract expires at the end of this season, because he is the present and at the same time living history of world football and of Barca, I intend to propose to our members via a referendum for the stadium to be renamed the 'Camp Nou Leo Messi." - Emili Rousaud, presidential candidate.

serghei, BBZ in tears, JamDav at the supermarket buying tons of napkins, the other puppies barking like mad

That's the guy who was the vice-president of Bartomeu. Also the same guy that wants to bring Neymar back.

[serghei]

You see, I agree on the importance of tactical discipline, and above all of the role of the coach.
I also agree on being critical of the players, and, as I explained, analyzing the reasons for Messi's poor performance.
But I do not recognize, having read you, that you have any right to feel a connoisseur of tactics.
I think coaches are not so foolish as to field players who harm the team. And that the whole narrative of the tyrant Messi who decides the formation in place of the coach is a conspiracy-minded delusion that only in this forum can have space.
As an aggravating circumstance, it is extremely boring and ridiculous this fact of labeling as Messi fanboy all those who have a different view.
That said, the question boils down to two different points of view:
Who believes that this Barcelona would do better without Messi, who believes the opposite...
points of view

I'm the only one here who posts from time to time tactical analysis of games and plays. So... I'm the best simply because I'm the only one who is willing to spend dozens of hours and go there.

As for Messi and tactics. It's simple really. Messi was always a player that posed tactical problems, and not small. Even since the days of Pep. But Guardiola was a genius and turned this into an asset with his False 9 plan. He was also lucky, because unlike others that followed him, he was given the supreme version of Messi, surrounded by equally bright football minds, who are able to implement that level of fluidity and very intricate moving patterns. Watch how Xavi and Iniesta synchronized every time Messi wanted to move somewhere. Guardiola, Xavi, Iniesta, Alves. These guys were vital in creating and implementing a style that turned Messi's tendency to create tactical problems into a strength.

After that, we had a brief period when Messi played as an explosive RW, with MSN. This was the most tactically solid version of Messi, like a superior peak Robben. Very streamlined, very hard to handle. Which is 2015. Other than that, the game had to be built on him, even at the expense of losing important things: such as inexistent or bad pressing, such as positional stability (the famous holes under EV, when we played 4-3-3 with a big gap on RW because Messi wasn't staying there), such as him invading other players' space and confusing them and so on. And we declined (and Messi declined as well) in terms of players and managers who could figure out how to turn those problems into valuable things for the team.

Messi's story was always about him having insane scoring and creating productivity at the expense of him causing tactical problems. When he was in his prime, he always brought more to the table than the problems he caused. Sometimes a lot more. As he aged and declined, this balance became a negative one, and right now, it's a tremendously negative one.

That's the issue. The fans simply live in complete denial.

[Mitchell1978]

There is no actual discussion, just repeating the same talking points over and over again from either (extreme) side without any nuance.

There's no real discussion here, people (on both sides) just repeating the same points and arguments.

[Mitchell1978]

His finishing has declined a lot. That's fair to say and the biggest difference.

first half of the 2019-20 La Liga campaign (under Valverde) he was basically doubling his expected goals (which probably wasn't sustainable) since early 2020 he has massively undeperformed his expected goals...

that not a normal decline, makes me thinks its more mental and about form

Leaving Barca in the summer would have been best for him.