Lionel Messi - v7

sikkboy said:

Mods why is this troll tolerated on this thread.I stopped reading at
Why is he trolling the thread with references to Ronaldo. He writes very similarly to a well know Ronaldo fanboy on a big Engosh fans forum. Not-stop anti-Messi agenda on a Barcelona forum. It's a shit look, it really is!!

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chill sickboy, everyone is allowed to post his opinions here.

Interesting one.

Vilarrubi said:

Interesting one.

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It is interesting.
This confirms my theory that there is a bias towards Messi.
Let me explain:
the parameter for judging him is the Prime Messi level (a totally oversized parameter compared to the history of football).
According to this parameter, his current performances are catastrophic and his decline evident.
But what happens if we compare him to more "human" standards?
In this case he is a player who despite a period of decline (definitive? Transnitory? We will see - for me more mental than technical) remains, for now, one of the most gifted

His finishing has declined a lot. That's fair to say and the biggest difference.

FinBarcelonafan said:

His finishing has declined a lot. That's fair to say and the biggest difference.

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This is correct but there is another consideration to be made.
Many of the shots are from more unfavorable positions to score:
an indication of a lower impact of the team's offensive play

Daniele said:

This is correct but there is another consideration to be made.
Many of the shots are from more unfavorable positions to score:
an indication of a lower impact of the team's offensive play

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A team had shots from favourable positions in the last two matches without him, though.

What does it say?
1. a team is not creating chances from good positions at all?
2. or Messi is not getting into a good positions due to him dropping to a CM position?

Braithwaite and Griezmann had quite an easy chances in the last two matches.

Interesting.

If you'll reply that Messi needs to drop deep because a team is not creating enough = we created more than enough without him on a field in the last two matches.

So:
1. He is dropping deep for no reason. He just wants to be involved in every single action.
2. He is shooting from bad position because he is guilty for it with his dropping too deep, inability to dribble past 5 players from a CM position, a lack of pace and poor off the ball movement

Name me one user here that complains about his creation. Literally everyone's complaining about his finishing, and to a lesser degree his pace, work-rate, and movement.

Also, "unfavorable positions to score" lmao. I swear the vast majority of those shots are clear chances on goal.

I also feel he's forcing a lot of his shots. Another indication that he doesn't trust his teammates. He also has a bit of bad luck with quite a few shots hitting the bar or post.

When you score one in 50 shots, and some of those hit the post, I'd say he was lucky to hit the post rather than unlucky. Alongside Griezmann, he is getting clear shots on goal. Awful lots of mental gymnastics to avoid seeing the obvious.

He's 33, it happens. So many football greats were already retired by that age. Pele Cruyff, Maradona, Ronaldo, Henry, and many more were done by then. We were lucky to see him being elite for so long in the first place.

BBZ8800 said:

A team had shots from favourable positions in the last two matches without him, though.

What does it say?
1. a team is not creating chances from good positions at all?
2. or Messi is not getting into a good positions due to him dropping to a CM position?

Braithwaite and Griezmann had quite an easy chances in the last two matches.

Interesting.

If you'll reply that Messi needs to drop deep because a team is not creating enough = we created more than enough without him on a field in the last two matches.

So:
1. He is dropping deep for no reason. He just wants to be involved in every single action.
2. He is shooting from bad position because he is guilty for it with his dropping too deep, inability to dribble past 5 players from a CM position, a lack of pace and poor off the ball movement

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I tend to consider that it is not a single player problem, but a collective one.
And I believe that a Barcelona without Messi would by no means be a better team.
Surely it would be better if he were administered better, without necessarily making him play 15 times in a week and giving him the good rest.

Laplacian said:

Name me one user here that complains about his creation. Literally everyone's complaining about his finishing, and to a lesser degree his pace, work-rate, and movement.

Also, "unfavorable positions to score" lmao. I swear the vast majority of those shots are clear chances on goal.

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Dude there's no need to laugh at other people's opinions.
Personally, I don't think Messi missed so many easy chances.
Having said that his finalization has worsened (also due to a pinch of bad luck)
Quite often in the last few months I have seen him search for the goal with quite complicated solutions (often shots in the mirror stopped by the goalkeeper, or slightly out of an angle)

Daniele said:

I tend to consider that it is not a single player problem, but a collective one.
And I believe that a Barcelona without Messi would by no means be a better team.
Surely it would be better if he were administered better, without necessarily making him play 15 times in a week and giving him the good rest.





Dude there's no need to laugh at other people's opinions.
Personally, I don't think Messi missed so many easy chances.
Having said that his finalization has worsened (also due to a pinch of bad luck)
Quite often in the last few months I have seen him search for the goal with quite complicated solutions (often shots in the mirror stopped by the goalkeeper, or slightly out of an angle)

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There's no doubt he's been off, been off this whole calendar year in fact, with the occasional top game aside, and those are mainly ones where he's running the game as opposed to finishing. He seems to have lost a bit of power in his shots, and of course the extra half step that gives him the little bit of space to get his trademark bottome left hand corner shot in.

Since the return of Covid it's been a slow climb back I'd say but there are signs that he's playing with a bit more intensity, and especially for his country. For instance in the game vs Peru in La Paz I was actually taken aback at the effort he made n that one, probably one of the hardest working players in the team. I suspect there's definitely an element of conserving what he has left in the Barca games, which is probably understandable from a player's perspective if he know's he's off in the new year. From a steadfast zealot fan of the club I can see how they'd be a bit miffed. If it was my club's legend easing down a bit I wouldn't be that bothered actually. If he's getting played then the coach obviously thinks teh player is worthy of his place.

Daniele said:

This is correct but there is another consideration to be made.
Many of the shots are from more unfavorable positions to score:
an indication of a lower impact of the team's offensive play

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its more because of his bad off-ball movement. I saw plenty situations when he could run into the space but he rather stands before the box.

Only football novices don't understand how important things like tactical discipline and movement are. Guys who go on some stats sites and think they actually understand the game because they post some numbers and stats out of context.

This is the archetypal current Messi fanboy. Guys who have a very limited understanding of tactical aspects. We're wasting our type explaining to someone why a guy who doesn't respect his role and positions fucks up the whole pressing setup of a team for example. Like, when Alba does pressing instead of Messi vs Bayern in that video. How damn hard it is to understand such a basic tactical aspect. Such as when your fullback doing pressing upfront, 60m from his normal position, this causes enormous positional problems in defense once Bayern (easily) beats the press.

As long as Messi does what he wants on the field, and walks for extended periods of time, he is a problem. If by some chance, he corrects those things, rests more, runs more in the games he plays, and learns not to mess up our tactics and positions by doing what he wants, then we can talk.

I get the feeling you created your own personal purgatory here. There is no actual discussion, just repeating the same talking points over and over again from either (extreme) side without any nuance. And keep missing the other sides arguments.

I could be wrong though, no way in hell I am going to read the last few pages.

mc_lovin said:

I get the feeling you created your own personal purgatory here. There is no actual discussion, just repeating the same talking points over and over again from either (extreme) side without any nuance. And keep missing the other sides arguments.

I could be wrong though, no way in hell I am going to read the last few pages.

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No, you're 100% right. I actually had this written ' same shite every time' literally 30 seconds ago but binned it as I know I'd just get sucked into a good for nothing discussion I've had a million times before, and all on a gorgeous day here.