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Thread: 10 - Lionel Messi

  1. #16411
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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    The thing is that Griezmann can also give Messi some freedom, because he can act as a 9 in the time Messi breaks shape. So, if you replace Griezmann with Trincao, Messi should have even less license to move around, and should keep position more. Or else you'd have Trincao acting as 9 whenever Messi seeks space on the right.
    "He can act as a 9" but in truth never really does, and is never good with his back to goal. Never really involved in any meaningful way as a 9 that justifies a healthy/useful occupation of that space. It's something that you can point to only in theory. Our structure in the center/right always looks like a total mess with Griezmann.

    When Messi drifts to the right you point to the empty space in the middle. That's the kind of space Ansu would happily dart into when available, or can be functionally taken up in small chunks by Cou or Trincao for some touches here or there in transition. It's not like the touches or movements that Griezmann is providing there is something that cannot be taken up or replaced by pretty much anyone else.
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  2. #16412
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    Why cant he be subbed. He should never play the full 90 minutes.

  3. #16413
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    nope. we won't have a real threat in the box. not all teams are as naive as villareal

    coutinho and griezmann don't know how to finish. and that leaves us with fati and messi who are not strikers.
    I also prefer the 4 attackers swarming unpredictably. Much more fluid than using a designating Icardi-Giroud type target man but in this katta set-up

    Quote Originally Posted by kattanib View Post
    I am convinced having all 4 rotating up there (Fati, Coutinho, Messi, Griezman) is more lethal than having a solid striker. If you want a Striker, we will have someone like Suarez both him and Messi won?t move
    replace Griezz with Dembele/Trincao for RW

    Today, very little attack came from the right till Trink came in.

    Griezz, just rotate him with the ref-nutmeggin specialist or as a supersub in midfield since he likes defending so much

    Also to note, we played a very high line today. Something we wouldn't be able to replicate vs a faster team.

  4. #16414
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAndres View Post
    "He can act as a 9" but in truth never really does, and is never good with his back to goal. Never really involved in any meaningful way as a 9 that justifies a healthy/useful occupation of that space. It's something that you can point to only in theory. Our structure in the center/right always looks like a total mess with Griezmann.
    Exactly. That's why we need a true 9.

  5. #16415
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    Exactly. That's why we need a true 9.
    Then you have Messi on RW again which is difficult to deal with on balance of team.

    Barca wont go for a proper 9 they will try to find the best option to pivot with Messi on RW/CF.

  6. #16416
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    Exactly. That's why we need a true 9.
    This might sound crazy but i think we could use some one like Stuani or a similiar profile even if just for one season. Basically a poacher/target man. Something like 2005/2006 Larsson. Against narrow compact teams we could run into some problems with a 'strikerless' formation. Today we looked pretty fluid partly because Villareal lefts loads of space for us to weave around and into. Against more disciplined teams prepared to sit deep, playing Messi up front with Greizmann interchanging could be an issue. The setup today looked good with lots of space. Against a bus i'm not sure it would work well.
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  7. #16417
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamDav1982 View Post
    Then you have Messi on RW again which is difficult to deal with on balance of team.

    Barca wont go for a proper 9 they will try to find the best option to pivot with Messi on RW/CF.
    RW is dead anyway with Griezmann played there. Trincao is still green and Dembele can play both wings

  8. #16418
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    Quote Originally Posted by jairzinho View Post
    This might sound crazy but i think we could use some one like Stuani or a similiar profile even if just for one season. Basically a poacher/target man. Something like 2005/2006 Larsson. Against narrow compact teams we could run into some problems with a 'strikerless' formation. Today we looked pretty fluid partly because Villareal lefts loads of space for us to weave around and into. Against more disciplined teams prepared to sit deep, playing Messi up front with Greizmann interchanging could be an issue. The setup today looked good with lots of space. Against a bus i'm not sure it would work well.
    It's not crazy, I would love to have someone like Stuani as a plan B.

  9. #16419
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    RW is dead anyway with Griezmann played there. Trincao is still green and Dembele can play both wings
    Messi on RW from outset is a nightmare tactically off the ball.

    Teams target it and Barca have to give up other areas of team to compensate.

    Cant see him playing there consistently now. A proper nine as an option more than as starter seems more likely.

  10. #16420
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAndres View Post
    "He can act as a 9" but in truth never really does, and is never good with his back to goal. Never really involved in any meaningful way as a 9 that justifies a healthy/useful occupation of that space. It's something that you can point to only in theory. Our structure in the center/right always looks like a total mess with Griezmann.

    When Messi drifts to the right you point to the empty space in the middle. That's the kind of space Ansu would happily dart into when available, or can be functionally taken up in small chunks by Cou or Trincao for some touches here or there in transition. It's not like the touches or movements that Griezmann is providing there is something that cannot be taken up or replaced by pretty much anyone else.
    But Messi has tendency to move way more in the right, than on the left. On the left he mainly goes for set pieces and corners. Other than that, his main move is either AM space or RW space. Meaning Coutinho and Griezmann zones. Not Fati's. So the main benefits of synchronization would be between Messi, Coutinho and Griezmann.

    It remains to be seen just how mobile and versatile Trincao can be. I saw him at Braga being quite fluid and playing in more ways than just classic winger. Right now it seems the competing pairs are Fati vs Dembele and Griezmann vs Trincao.
    Last edited by serghei; 27th September 2020 at 10:56 PM.

  11. #16421
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    Prolly need a better RW that gives Messi more space to work with, Trincao seems to fit better and create more threats down that right hand side.

  12. #16422
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    Messi can't play anything else except False 9 at this point, but a False 9 that keeps position more and drops less as his movement has deteriorated. In the past, he could drop and be back in the box very fast to finishing off the actions. Now when he drops, it takes a while for him to go up and attack the box. Sometimes he even gives up and doesn't go up with the action at all. Which is why he needs to reduce the time he drops to AM positions and trust his teammates more.
    Last edited by serghei; 27th September 2020 at 11:24 PM.

  13. #16423
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    Solving the Messi problem is likely the most important tactical issue and I think false 9 is the correct answer as well. Messi can't play a 10 because you need to put in work as a dynamic pass station in general non-threateting play and Messi doesn't do that at all.

    If we get a striker then it's Messi RW and farewell to balance.

  14. #16424
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    Messi as a 10 with a striker would basically be the same setup as Valverde's 4-4-2 in 17-18 except with more offensive wingers

  15. #16425
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    Not just the wingers.. This revitalized squad offers much more dynamism, speed and variety. Think Koe will soon switch Busi to supersub role and use Griezz further back away from goal. Unless strike coach Larsson can somehow train Grizzi Bear to do some new tricks.
    For instance, this single pivot 4-3-4 backbone with the top 4 interchanging and liaising quickly would yield some serious attacking threat, and allow plenty of flexibility rotation-wise.

    Ansu/Demb - Messi/Colgate - Trink/Demb
    Couti/Puig/Pedri
    Pedri/Rafi/Konrad - Bob/Griezz/Pjanic
    Frenkie/Pjanic
    Firpo/Alba - Lenglet/Araujo - Pique/Todibo - Dest/Moussa
    Neto/MaTs


    Good thing we're getting Dest. He'll bring much needed balance to the right.

    edit: oh shit! I always end up adding that extra player! lol

    ok go 4-2-3-1 then...

    Ansu/Demb - Messi/Colgate - Trink/Demb
    Couti/Puig/Pedri
    Frenkie/Puig/Pedri - Pjanic/Grizz/Bob
    Firpo/Alba - Lenglet/Araujo - Pique/Todibo - Dest/Moussa
    Neto/MaTs
    Last edited by snowy; 28th September 2020 at 12:29 AM.