Lionel Messi - v7

Get voting for Messi to win The Best.

Let's hope Messi and Rapinoe win

FCB1987 said:

Get voting for Messi to win The Best.

Let's hope Messi and Rapinoe win

Click to expand...

My man back in full form just as the season's about to start

FCB1987 said:

Get voting for Messi to win The Best.

Let's hope Messi and Rapinoe win

Click to expand...

Crazy that Alisson and Bernardo aren't nominated though

michelco said:

????

anyway I think Messi not being a leader is brought up over and over in this forum is because of the inevitable and never ending comparisons with CR, where most would agree CR is a better leader but Messi aces him in everything else. However, this is a discussion forum so let the people discuss instead of trying to stop discussion by saying "why bring this up over and over" etc etc

oh, did I add the CR vs Messi into this debate deliberately? will people quote me on how wrong and/or right I am? probably, i've been here long enough to see people argue about if the color blue is actually blue

Click to expand...

And personally I think this is bunk. CR has pouted when teammates scored goals he thought that should have been him. He was actually pretty cancerous of a personality until Zidane got in there--one of the few people he would listen to, plus at 30 or so he most have finally learned his ego/legacy was going to be more served by team trophies than golden boots--thus the focus on the team for his own ego purposes.

He is branded a "leader" because his Portugal teammates won a final he had no part of, and Ramos and others makes the big plays for 2 of the 3 CL finals they luckily won in a row (50/50 they win each of their bookend CLs but history is bent for a good narrative). I can say CR's individual work ethic surely has some benefit/role modelling effect one might say is leadership. But being a team 1st leader of men, nah, certainly not the bulk of his career.

Serghe points out tactical issues specifically brought on by Messi's play style and how it affects the team's transitions defensively and attacking wise, he's not insulting him it's genuine critique; even if you think it's wrong. Some of you react by saying the most hyperbolic bullshit ever ("u So SpoIlT!!") and completely neglect his line of argument ("shut up he's the best ever stop being contrarian!!"). It's so boring and incredibly disingenuous. Yes he's one of the best players ever in history but goddamn, fucking chill out with fanatical worship.


In addition, I don't think it's a Valverde issue at all. Imbalance issues in the team's shape and progression of the ball induced by Messi's role as a free player has been a problem before Lucho's era. Lucho tried to rectify it by playing him as an actual RW and instructing to him to be more involved in defending again, though he did have liberties. But that fizzled out over the course of his tenure, during the final season Messi once again was no longer a RW. Valverde also tried to rectify it by giving Messi definite roles in the beginning of each season, but that quickly fizzled out as the season progressed. Messi even came out with an interview specifically saying he preferred his current role as a "false winger" over being an actual RW, which he was for a game or two in the beginning of the season. Messi's play style and the team's tactical issues that stem from it isn't due to the manager's tactical inability, but due to Messi's reluctance to adapt and change his way into a more practical (for the team) play style.

I'm not saying he's 100% at fault for the CL blunders, I'm not saying he's shit, or anything else. Listen, our midfield's uncreative and highly defensive because they have to deal with the huge hole caused by Messi's vacancy in the right wing; our right backs suffer a lot because of Messi's vacancy in the right wing; we suffer a lot against pressing sides because of Messi's vacancy in the right wing; Messi frequently dropping deep causes issues in attacking patterns because it seriously reduces our options and makes us far more predictable. Saying this doesn't make a user spoiled, saying it doesn't mean they think Messi is shit, and saying it certainly doesn't mean Messi's 100% to blame for everything. Some say it's Valverde's fault and in my opinion not really, Messi is partly to blame because I think it's his individual choice, considering Barcelona's coaches have spotted the issue and tried (and failed) to rectify it and especially when you consider his public opinions of how he prefers to play his football.

Another player in my opinion suffers a similar issue: Eden Hazard. I believe pretty much every Chelsea coach (Conte, MOurinho, and Sarri) have said that Hazard has the ability to be one of the best goalscorers in the world; he has the technique, intelligence, vision, and composure. But why has he barely hit over 15 goals in his career? Because he prefers not to. Sarri recommended Hazard to play higher up the field so he can score more goals, to be less involved in progressing the ball, and to take quicker touches. Hazard simply said no, I want to dribble and play my way. It's similar to Messi's situation, whereas instead of individually suffering like Hazard his preferences sometimes detriment the team instead of him.

Arizona Scott said:

But being a team 1st leader of men, nah, certainly not the bulk of his career.

Click to expand...

Scott, me and a lot of users started to use that leadership phrase about CR7 in the last 3-4 years because of his drive, motivation, passion. He rarely gives up.

And you know that moment in a CL in the 80th minute of a 2nd leg vs Juventus or someone, when RM is 0:1 down.
CR7 will wave his hands and ask from teammates to wake up and try something.
Also, on an individual level, you can bet that he will somehow find a way to get in 3-4 chances in the last 10 minutes (usually headers at a far post) and he will most often score 1 and turn the match in the final minutes.

On the other hand, Messi, when we are 0:1 down, he will have a lost look on his face.
He will look as if the world has ended.
He will sulk and just walk around a pitch.
He won't yell at teammates and he surely won't get into 4 chances in the last 10 minutes.
He will just walk and do nothing.
Or drop deep and try to dribble past 5 players or play a long ball to Alba.

I have read an interview a few days ago.
And a Croatian NT coach Dalic said that before a match Croatia:Argentina at a World cup, Rakitic has told him: the only way to stop Messi is to defend as a team with 2 players around him all the time. And pray that he won't pull some magic...

But, Rakitic said: if we score first, then the most often Messi is dead.
If we score and if Messi starts to look down, touch his beard, he is usually KO'd and he will play only at 50% unless if his team will somehow score.

So, you see, it seems that even players and coaches know about this Messi's problem when his team is 0:1 down.
** someone will now post some matches against RM when he turned the match.
True, he is always motivated against RM and CR7.
But in Europe, in majority of cases, when we are 0:1 down, Messi goes into a sulking-disappearing mode.

No wonder that we weren't able to turn a single tie into our favor when we were losing, since 2014'
2014 Atletico 0:1
2016 Atletico 0:2
2017 Juve 0:3
2018 Roma 0:3
2019 Liverpool 0:4

With Messi in the last 5 years, after WC 2014, in big CL KO matches it is mostly:
1. If we score first, Messi goes into a beast mode and we can win 3:0 or 4:0 against anyone, especially at his home, where he feels comfortable, at Camp Nou
2. But away from Camp Nou, especially if we start to lose, in majority of matches=we see MIA and sulking Messi. And since our team can't create an action without Messi, we are dead also.
Ok, there are 100s of other factors for our defeats.
But Messi's weird sulking at away KO matches at 0:1 is also one of them.

In that sense, when we are playing away from home and losing 0:1 in a KO match, I would personally rather take CR7 for the last 10 minutes.
He is crazy and motivated.
He will get in 3-4 chances, score one header and probably earn a penaldo.
Messi will walk, sulk and hold his beard in those moments.

Too many final defeats have hurt him.
Argentina fans against him.
Too much pressure.
Also he changed since he has a family.
I don't know what exactly is a problem, but in terms of mental strength, in the last 5 years Messi is miles behind CR7.
** also, this don't apply for La Liga.
Messi plays here for the whole career and La liga is his home.
In La liga matches (home and away) and on Camp Nou Champions league KO matches, he is a lion.
But World cups, Copa America and Champions league KO away matches, something is wrong (in terms of a mental strength and confidence) with Messi on these matches.

BBZ8800 said:

,


I have read an interview a few days ago.
And a Croatian NT coach Dalic said that before a match Croatia:Argentina at a World cup, Rakitic has told him: the only way to stop Messi is to defend as a team with 2 players around him all the time. And pray that he won't pull some magic...

But, Rakitic said: if we score first, then the most often Messi is dead.
.

Click to expand...

Source?

Laplacian said:

Serghe points out tactical issues specifically brought on by Messi's play style and how it affects the team's transitions defensively and attacking wise, he's not insulting him it's genuine critique; even if you think it's wrong. Some of you react by saying the most hyperbolic bullshit ever ("u So SpoIlT!!") and completely neglect his line of argument ("shut up he's the best ever stop being contrarian!!"). It's so boring and incredibly disingenuous. Yes he's one of the best players ever in history but goddamn, fucking chill out with fanatical worship.


In addition, I don't think it's a Valverde issue at all. Imbalance issues in the team's shape and progression of the ball induced by Messi's role as a free player has been a problem before Lucho's era. Lucho tried to rectify it by playing him as an actual RW and instructing to him to be more involved in defending again, though he did have liberties. But that fizzled out over the course of his tenure, during the final season Messi once again was no longer a RW. Valverde also tried to rectify it by giving Messi definite roles in the beginning of each season, but that quickly fizzled out as the season progressed. Messi even came out with an interview specifically saying he preferred his current role as a "false winger" over being an actual RW, which he was for a game or two in the beginning of the season. Messi's play style and the team's tactical issues that stem from it isn't due to the manager's tactical inability, but due to Messi's reluctance to adapt and change his way into a more practical (for the team) play style.

I'm not saying he's 100% at fault for the CL blunders, I'm not saying he's shit, or anything else. Listen, our midfield's uncreative and highly defensive because they have to deal with the huge hole caused by Messi's vacancy in the right wing; our right backs suffer a lot because of Messi's vacancy in the right wing; we suffer a lot against pressing sides because of Messi's vacancy in the right wing; Messi frequently dropping deep causes issues in attacking patterns because it seriously reduces our options and makes us far more predictable. Saying this doesn't make a user spoiled, saying it doesn't mean they think Messi is shit, and saying it certainly doesn't mean Messi's 100% to blame for everything. Some say it's Valverde's fault and in my opinion not really, Messi is partly to blame because I think it's his individual choice, considering Barcelona's coaches have spotted the issue and tried (and failed) to rectify it and especially when you consider his public opinions of how he prefers to play his football.

Another player in my opinion suffers a similar issue: Eden Hazard. I believe pretty much every Chelsea coach (Conte, MOurinho, and Sarri) have said that Hazard has the ability to be one of the best goalscorers in the world; he has the technique, intelligence, vision, and composure. But why has he barely hit over 15 goals in his career? Because he prefers not to. Sarri recommended Hazard to play higher up the field so he can score more goals, to be less involved in progressing the ball, and to take quicker touches. Hazard simply said no, I want to dribble and play my way. It's similar to Messi's situation, whereas instead of individually suffering like Hazard his preferences sometimes detriment the team instead of him.

Click to expand...

although i agree with most of what you said, i disagree with the problem being specifically Messi rather then the manager/coaches. It's their job to create a system that would be effective for us and him, Even though he may prefer the False RW position im pretty sure he'd be willing to fill other roles if they're effective, something no manager since pep has been able to accomplish.

Messi is not THE problem but as Serghei, BBZ and Laplacian said part of the problem. This is fact even though here are some user who cant analyze things neutral. Nevertheless the main problem is still our superior coach Ernesto Valverde

Laplacian said:

I'm not saying he's 100% at fault for the CL blunders, I'm not saying he's shit, or anything else. Listen, our midfield's uncreative and highly defensive because they have to deal with the huge hole caused by Messi's vacancy in the right wing; our right backs suffer a lot because of Messi's vacancy in the right wing; we suffer a lot against pressing sides because of Messi's vacancy in the right wing; Messi frequently dropping deep causes issues in attacking patterns because it seriously reduces our options and makes us far more predictable.

Click to expand...

Our midfield is NOT uncreative because of a vacancy in the right wing caused by Messi. The right full back pushes higher up the pitch and we have the required width, that's always been our tactic. Messi leaves that spot and drops deep BECAUSE our midfield IS uncreative. Not the other way around.

We suffer against pressing sides because we don't have the players we once had, to deal with them. We also don't have a plan to counter heavy pressing. Messi's positioning has absolutely nothing to do with this. On the contrary, he has become the only player that is press resistant, and so he drops deep so we can have some sort of possession, since literally no-one else can keep or pass the ball under pressure.

Attacking patterns should be better without Messi if your last statement was true. We are absolutely toothless without him, because There are NO attacking patterns whatsoever.

Messi's problem is pressing when defending and at times movement to get free to receive a pass.
Those things have always been his weak attributes.

Say what you want about previous years, but claiming he is at any percentage of fault for the last cl exit is just wrong.

FCB1987 said:

Source? (I have read an interview a few days ago.
And a Croatian NT coach Dalic said that before a match Croatia:Argentina at a World cup, Rakitic has told him: the only way to stop Messi is to defend as a team with 2 players around him all the time. And pray that he won't pull some magic...

But, Rakitic said: if we score first, then the most often Messi is dead.)

Click to expand...

Croatian newspapers and interviews with an NT coach Dalic.
I will copy/paste some interviews and use a Google translate for other users to read it:
Before a match Croatia:Argentina, group stage, World Cup 2018:
https://www.index.hr/sport/clanak/dalic-messija-se-ne-moze-zaustaviti-a-od-danas-mi-je-rakitic-prvi-pomocnik/2005183.aspx

Parts about Argentina:

Dalic: It is impossible to stop Messi. But from today, Rakitic will be my assistant manager for that match.

A day after the big victory over Nigeria, Croatian coach Zlatko Dalic appeared before the press, who first evoked the events of Kaliningrad, and then announced the second round of Group D against Argentina, which will be played on 21 June.

The question was, would he change anything against Argentina?
"We are in a slightly more comfortable situation now than Argentina. Assistant Jerkan who scouted Argentina returned to us. We have three days to prepare. It is certain that we will look for a solution for Messi, who was Argentina's main player. I will not stop our players from showing the splendor of their talent and quality,'' Dalic said, adding:

''Rakitic will be my assistant for the next three days. We will surely seek some advice on how to stop Messi. Otherwise I always ask my players about such things and about all other things, I love open communication and I accept any advice. Anything Messi doesn't like, Rakitic will tell me. I will use all possible information. Luka Modric and Mateo Kovacic will also help. They played against him, and Zidane must have prepared them for such things.''

Click to expand...

NT Coach Dalic 5 Months after a World Cup talking about specific matches, this time about a match vs Argentina and how to stop Messi:
https://www.index.hr/sport/clanak/dalic-otkrio-kako-je-zaustavio-messija/2036911.aspx

Google translate:

Almost five months later, Zlatko Dalic reveals that he stopped Messi, the only Argentina player who has not drowned in general blackness in recent years. On the contrary, he saved his national team in qualifying and took her to the World Cup.

However, there he was powerless against Croatia.
"We disabled Messi with the collective play and strength of our team. Argentina got into trouble when we cut the ball to Messi," Dalic tells, pointing out:
"It's harder for him to play for Argentina than for Barcelona, so we tried to make the most of the weakness in the Argentine team."
The key was "to play disciplined and fully meet our tactical plan. Our players did just that. We were trying to prevent the ball from reaching Messi and stopping it quickly on the parts of the court where he receives the ball."
Dalic is convinced that he did it for one reason: "As good as Messi is, football is a collective sport and if one team plays better than the other, it is difficult for any individual to turn it around. Croatia was simply better than Argentina at that game." .
Despite Messi being bad against Croatia, Dalic claims: "To me, Messi is the best footballer in the world and he shows it week after week."

Click to expand...

And now, a year after a World Cup, a journo reflects on words of Dalic and Rakitic and about Messi's secret told by Rakitic to an NT coach Dalic in the days before a World cup match:
https://www.index.hr/sport/clanak/rakitic-je-bio-savrseno-u-pravu-za-messija-cim-izvede-taj-potez-izgubio-je-sve/2098056.aspx

Google translate:

Rakitic was perfectly right for Messi. As soon as he made that move, he is finished for that match.
In PREPARING a match between Croatia and Argentina (3-0) at Russian Mundial, coach Zlatko Dalic has forged tactics to stop Lionel Messi.
He could not invent anything new on the tactical side, because even far bigger coaches than he had failed to do - the Argentine genius could only be stopped with a teamplay paired with lots of luck.
Or he'll stop himself as soon as he mentally sinks.

Much help to Dalic was given by Ivan Rakitic, who works with Messi every day in Barcelona. Again, nothing to do with tactics.
"Messi is a genius, but as soon as he bows his head and goes to the center, it's over. So he lost his concentration, and he is not himself anymore," Rakitic told Dalic what happened that night in Nizhny Novgorod.
As soon as he lowers his head, he leans to one side and starts looking blank, he's done.

The same thing happened to Messi in two key games this season, the last time against Brazil in the Copa America semifinals (2-0), before that at Anfield in a 4-0 loss at Liverpool. Messi's reactions after the goals scored are not captain's, which is no novelty.
Just that lowered head tilted to the side, looking blank, scratching his chin and, if you will, surrendering, is the last thing he needs in an already tattered Argentina that has not had a stable menu for years, a clear game plan and standardized composition.
But even in such poor conditions, he excels in class, connects, creates and works for the team. Lastly, to no concrete effect.
On the football side, there is little he can blame.

Still, it is fascinating to see that Leo has scored just four goals in all of Argentina's last 20 knockout matches.
In particular, he played 756 minutes in the knockout stages without scoring a single goal.

And it's not so much to blame him for, as any serious team knows how to stand up to him, he is often surrounded by four or five opposing players. In this situation, according to ordinary, layman's football logic, teammates should use the extra space with their movements.
Dalic's plan to stop Messi is no revolutionary football invention. Probably this model, or some modified one, is being applied by other coaches facing the Argentine grandmaster.
And clearly, they hope they won't have the perfect day because that's when even the most brutal tactics fall into the water.
Identical images at Anfield and Belo Horizonte

Messi is otherwise blamed for a lack of motivation, missing a roar at his teammates, and he misses some sort of a chaos to reverse the situation. This is what the Argentinean genius is unable to produce when it matters most.

Click to expand...

Here are some pics from that article about Messi touching his chin, having a blank look in his eyes and sulking in big matches once when his team starts to lose 0:1:




** Anyway, from this article, we can see some things:
1. coaches use a lot of assistants and a full team of people around them to prepare a match or a season.
So, if Malcom or Alena are not playing, it is usually (imo) not only about a coach, but about a full team of people who have made that decision. (For a reason).
2. further, coaches and players are sharing their secrets.
And this is a part about evolving.
People often say on this forum: TikiTaka from 2008-2011 wasn't neutralized. It is that WE stopped applying it perfectly, lol.
In the first 1-2 seasons, the opponents are shocked and don't know how to defend against us. But then, a little by little, coaches figure out some things: how to neutralize shots, how to neutralize good passes, how to kill us on counters.
And in the beginning, the opponents are applying only tiny bits of that knowledge how to stop us, but after 2-3 years, majority of opponents, their coaches, players and assistants have learned all tricks how to stop us on all parts of a field.
And then you get a 2011/12 season when even Pep was forced to change things and invent new ways.
I have said a few days ago, I watched a documentary about Cruyff 2 weeks ago, and even he and his assistants said: it was easy for us in 1991 and 1992.
Teams didn't know how to stop us.
But in a 1993', it started to be way harder. Even the weakest La Liga teams started to neutralize our actions and patterns and we needed some changes.
We needed to give up from our winning formula because it was not working anymore.
3. regarding our midfield and Messi, maybe our midfield is looking even worse, because the opponents are taking the Messi out of the game, unlike 2008-2011?
4. further, Messi dropping deep? It is clear that a coaches are cutting him from the game on purpose, and the only way for him to get the ball is to drop deep and ruin our tactics to some extent.
My point: maybe, even if we had Xavi and Iniesta today, they would be less effective today than in 2009 or 2011 due to teams evolving and making it harder and harder for winning systems as time goes by.

Anyway, after all these words from a coach, from Rakitic and about Messi, here are 2 videos about that match in the end:
Goals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcM5n71XmBo

Messi's individual play and how he was stopped:

I saw him do that face after Chelsea scored first with him scoring the equalizer in the CL, or a shit ton of other examples when he ends up scoring to tie the game or win it. LMAO , what's he suspossed to do , have a smile on his face 90 mins long ?


Ah yes , he's supossed to yell at his teammates like CR does , if they win it's all because of his cheerleading skills , if they lose ...well it's because the team sucks , like CR would say , not him.


I remember some years back when Cuenca was in the team and he was doing stuff without looking what's happening around him, kept shooting the ball with free teammates around him or stuff like that. At one time Messi had enough of it and yelled at him to stop keeping his head down and look up to see what's going on around him . The result ? He was cruciffied in the press for yelling at a kid

BBZ, I think there are kernals there, yes. Messi does get frustrated and his body kind of slumps. But you have to balance it out say with where at the Bernabeu he nearly flipped the la liga race 3 years ago in the last 2nd when Real has a far more balanced and deep team. That match really was as intense and high played as any CL match that year--just look at both players and their teams when Messi stole that match late, that emotion matched anything for that year.

Further, when a team has a 3-0 or 4-1 lead in a tie, it really can't be on the attackers, they shouldn't need another goal to win, just decent play by the defense and midfield. Footy 101 is you opponents should never sniff 3 goals a match.

Also due to events largely little to do with CR--the 1st and 3rd CL final match wins of three cl stretch (Ramos header was the most critical play in one and him injury the Pool players most critical in the 3rd), the Portugues defense shutting France out and some other player got the goal they needed--these somehow get credited to CR being clutch or a leader, I don't buy it. Where was he in leg 2 with the lightweight Ajax team was knocking Juv out this year--his posture and effort IMO looked more resigned than Messi in leg 2 vs Liverpool IMO.

I honestly think most of the narrative of CR being more of a leader than an egomanic--non team leader--was do to Zidane somehow managing to settle that whole team. They were totally imploding and CRs character had a lot to do with it. How history's opinion has changed with a few favorable bounces and one coaching change. Would the narrative also be completly different if Higuan, Palacios (I think) and Dembele had finished relatively 2 staitforward plays where Messi does have a WC and Barca is off the last CL campain with a win, and double or treble for the year. What if Ramos missed the header in extra time or one of the others miss the penalties insead of Juanfran. I think we over interpret from the very narrow margins in who wins a cup tourney and who is a just miss.

Arizona Scott said:

And personally I think this is bunk. CR has pouted when teammates scored goals he thought that should have been him. He was actually pretty cancerous of a personality until Zidane got in there--one of the few people he would listen to, plus at 30 or so he most have finally learned his ego/legacy was going to be more served by team trophies than golden boots--thus the focus on the team for his own ego purposes.

He is branded a "leader" because his Portugal teammates won a final he had no part of, and Ramos and others makes the big plays for 2 of the 3 CL finals they luckily won in a row (50/50 they win each of their bookend CLs but history is bent for a good narrative). I can say CR's individual work ethic surely has some benefit/role modelling effect one might say is leadership. But being a team 1st leader of men, nah, certainly not the bulk of his career.

Click to expand...

yeah I would agree with you. I also feel that for portugal he did that mostly for the cameras. the same way pep guardiola does as soon as he sees a camera and a random youth player he'll spend 20 minutes explaining and waiving his arms about how to make a throw in or some shit lmao

JohnN said:

Our midfield is NOT uncreative because of a vacancy in the right wing caused by Messi. The right full back pushes higher up the pitch and we have the required width, that's always been our tactic. Messi leaves that spot and drops deep BECAUSE our midfield IS uncreative. Not the other way around.

We suffer against pressing sides because we don't have the players we once had, to deal with them. We also don't have a plan to counter heavy pressing. Messi's positioning has absolutely nothing to do with this. On the contrary, he has become the only player that is press resistant, and so he drops deep so we can have some sort of possession, since literally no-one else can keep or pass the ball under pressure.

Attacking patterns should be better without Messi if your last statement was true. We are absolutely toothless without him, because There are NO attacking patterns whatsoever.

Messi's problem is pressing when defending and at times movement to get free to receive a pass.
Those things have always been his weak attributes.

Say what you want about previous years, but claiming he is at any percentage of fault for the last cl exit is just wrong.

Click to expand...

Well said