Lionel Messi - v7

catalinutzR80 said:

let's see about Champions League


https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...rStatistics/Europe-Champions-League-2020-2021

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Both of you know the difference between 'stats' and 'ratings' right?

Daniele said:

I find this reading very appropriate

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Of course, because this reading is out of place, and you would cling to any out-of-place reading that salvages king Leo from criticism.

ONLY IF one has never watched Liverpool play, he/she would say that Salah does not counter-press and is free of responsibilities.
LMAOL seriously turn on your telly and watch any Liverpool game, Salah presses like crazy and tracks back as far as his responsibility is, something that Messi never does.

Not to repeat all the points Serghei brought about the 'structured-free' role. But the initial premise ('Salah does not press') is so out of reality that one should not take seriously these arguments.

You (Daniele) have not yet presented a single argument to counter the criticism on Messi's performances, and you still boast that Messi critics cannot prove their points through formal logic (LOL).

As times passes by, you (Messi fanboys) are becoming more pathetic with any substance in your chattering disappearing and only your emotional blindness being left.

catalinutzR80 said:

let's see about Champions League


https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...rStatistics/Europe-Champions-League-2020-2021

Click to expand...

even if those ratings are messi 'biased' or don't tell the whole picture, they are way better than what BBZ suggests.

Ok. The stats and ratings are Messi biased and "numbers and theories out of a random forum dude's ass" have more merit.
I' ve got it.

JohnN said:

Ok. The stats and ratings are Messi biased and "numbers and theories out of a random forum dude's ass" have more merit.
I' ve got it.

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I was saying hypothetically, that's why I've put biased in brackets.

Pjanić: "I know I can give a lot, and when the coach called on me, I always did well, I played good games. I don't know what more than that I could do. I'm training, I'm ready."

Let the man play ffs

Birdy said:

Of course, because this reading is out of place, and you would cling to any out-of-place reading that salvages king Leo from criticism.

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Why should I cling to the theories that defend Messi?
Why don't you accept that I (like many others here) have an opinion not necessarily influenced by prejudices or in line with yours?
The reading in question found me in agreement.
You neutralize all my thoughts, labeling me in a prejudicial and derogatory way "Messi fanboy".
So, who is really biased?

Birdy said:

ONLY IF one has never watched Liverpool play, he/she would say that Salah does not counter-press and is free of responsibilities.
LMAOL seriously open your telly and watch any Liverpool game, Salah presses like crazy and tracks back as far as his responsibility is, something that Messi never does.

Not to repeat all the points Serghei brought about the 'structured-free' role. But the initial premise ('Salah does not press') is so out of reality that one should not take seriously these arguments. You (Daniele) have not yet presented a single argument to counter the criticism on Messi's performances, and you still boast that Messi critics cannot prove their points through formal logic (LOL).

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NO, with logic I dismantle your conspiracies on non-football things that have nothing to do with football (Messi tyrant, delusional, thieving and selfish) but that you link to football judgment.

I know that today's football is much more dynamic and players are required to run a lot.
And it is also true that many teams have players more committed to pressing tasks.
Despite this, there is no team that presses from the beginning to the end of the game. They would be monsters.
The point is to press well, in a coordinated way and chorally supporting the right triggers.
Messi can do this like a player of his age. Obviously younger players will do it more. But the organization of the pressing and its execution depends on the provisions given by the coach in this sense, who must also take into account the athletic ability of his players
The question is whether despite this, he still represents a value for the team. It can be discussed

On a tactical level, my point is simple: I agree that he is a catalyst of the game and that he tends to have great freedom and yes, probably this brings less mobility and less effective ball recovery; AT THE SAME TIME I think he is the only one capable of creating superiority by jumping man in tight spaces (still like no others in the world), and capable of inventing something out of nothing.
The strengths and weaknesses of playing with messi are, in perspective, more advantageous than playing without.
Having said that, no one doubts the crisis of the team (as a team and as a club) and the CONSEQUENT crisis in the player's performance:
this is the worst Messi ever, according to the data

Birdy said:

As times passes by, you (Messi fanboys) are becoming more pathetic with any substance in your chattering disappearing and only your emotional blindness being left.

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see above.
Here the pathetic is only those who insult the players they should cheer and those who label others as Messi fanboys just because they don't agree with them.
At least that Serghei guy (when he is not a conspiracy theorist) proposes tactical visions. Many others do nothing but rant repeatedly.
I and many others of those you call Messi fanboys are the most constructive critics

Messigician said:

Pjanić: "I know I can give a lot, and when the coach called on me, I always did well, I played good games. I don't know what more than that I could do. I'm training, I'm ready."

Let the man play ffs

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LOL, i think thats the same what Busquets thinks and Vidal/Suarez/Rakitic have thought. All of them still think in their head they are pure worldclass.

serghei said:

I agree, but while Salah has more liberties than the other Liverpool attackers (especially Firmino who sacrifices a lot for the good of the team), his game and positioning are a lot more structured, cohesive, and disciplined than current Messi's.

This is to the credit of Klopp obviously, but also Salah. I see Salah as more similar to a 2009-2011 Messi combo in terms of his role on the field. Or 2014-2015 Messi. Meaning he respects his role and responsibilities as a RW, playing like a RW, but also has some positional freedoms that other players have to cover and supplement with quick positional adjustments. Players only know what to adjust if there is a clear tactical understanding why things happen on the pitch. Why Messi goes here at A moment, and why does he go there or keep position at B scenario. But when that lacks and it's the player that decides when or what, things get fucked up irreparably. Because nobody knows what to do, since there are no tactical signals that dictate where a player moves at a point in time.

So, free roles are free from the opponent's perspective, because they don't have access to the tactics of the side having the ball. For the team doing it, the free role is in fact a very complex and fluid set of rules and adjustments, with multiple variables that are shared and understood by everyone in the team, especially those around the areas of the ball (obvious things like player IQ are important because they allow players to assimilate these advanced tactics). All those variables and complex paths and movements are done to enhance the way a player can influence the game, only if the player is special and makes those complications be worth implementing. It's why Salah goes inside and vacates his position much more than Mane, with Mane playing more like a speedy classical winger. Or why Messi did it much more than Pedro, while playing the same RW position.

For me, current Messi doesn't have a structured "free role" like Salah. Because we didn't have a great manager for a long while, and because Messi's discipline on the field deteriorated a lot (among other things). You often see Messi dropping when there's no reason and no benefit to do so. While at Liverpool every move is dictated by a tactical purpose, and you see this unfolding as the play evolves. You see a space being opened for Arnold pushing up for example, and you see the midfielder - Arnold connection unfolding. At Barca, when Messi drops, it's 99% of the time to be passed to in a crap position. Watch how many times Salah triggers a move without being passed to.

This makes Messi a huge problem for: a) fast transitions, b) pressing-based first wave of defense, c) good ball-circulation and positioning. All 3 are near-impossible to do with Messi in the current free role.

The only thing Messi brings is superior passing and on-the-ball abilities. But if everything else around that deteriorates as a result of his game, what you get is 29 lost balls and almost no goals from open play in 10 games, regardless of the opponent.

It's no Coutinho for me as well. But also no Messi. Griezmann is by far the best option to play behind Braithwaite, because he is the only one who is fast, mobile, and hard-working enough to support the "9" properly. When Messi plays behind Braithwaite, he has so low presence in the box, that our central forward is 90% of the time super isolated. When Coutinho plays as a CAM - 2nd striker it's similar with Messi, with a bit better movement and work-rate (still poor compared with Griezmann), but worse on the ball in terms of decision-making and executions.

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So there is a lot to dig in on here:

When it comes to Messi v. Salah, it is true that Salah usually starts in wider positions than Messi does. Salah plays as a false winger if you will, he starts on the wing and then drifts inside and you are spot on for recognizing that this movement opens up the space for Trent to maraud. It is precisely what we had when Dani was here. Messi on the other hand really has been playing almost exclusively in the hole. He starts in the middle usually and sometimes goes to the wing, sometimes drops deep etc. His heat map against Cadiz demonstrates this:



The lack of positional discipline from Messi has been wavering since Lucho. The genesis of this began when he came back from injury in 2016. Since then, he has played much more as a CAM than a RW and it was something Lucho never disciplined against as he had success giving MSN freedom. But even then, it unbalanced the system. He tried to have Raki sit deeper and wider to negate the loss and even inverted Dani a bit, but it still fell short against Atleti. So this has been a long-term trend and nothing new. We needed managers with the invention to create a system that is in-step with our philosophy and have a solution for Messi. Ernie and Setien clearly were not at the caliber required. But this is the shortcomings of Bartomeu and not Messi for real. Especially with the GOAT form he was in during 17-18, his production overcame the imbalance. So basically, the right manager could minimize the imbalance and still maximize Messi?s output. It?s the lack of positional interchanges and creativity from the midfield that are highlighting the imbalances right now. Bartomeu simply failed to hire someone who could work this out. So this is complex, there are a multitude of factors playing into this and why both: A) I have not given up on Messi yet and B) why blaming Messi right now, especially considering the fucking circumstances of the summer, is shortsighted and reactionary.

One thing I slightly disagree with though is the lack of reasoning for Messi dropping deep. First off, in terms of their approach to the game, I see a lot of similarities to Ernie and Ronnie. The difference is that Ernie inherited a team that knew how to win while Ronald has a team that knows how to lose. With Messi, he has not had a functional midfield since 2015, largely due to the lack of a system we had under Ernie. Especially once we lost the Don, the only real playmaker we had was Messi. Now at least Frenkie offers us some control in the build up phase again (another reason why Messi would drop, he would often have to drop because no one else could play a pass that could move the opponents lines in the 2nd third of the pitch) but we still don?t quite have the creativity required in midfield at the moment. So Messi dropping deep is a shortcoming of the squad, not of Messi.

Lastly, Ronald to be fair, is better than Setien and Valverde. He properly prepared the team physically and has us at least somewhat fit again. I think he has us pressing better and our wing play has improved. 9 points have come down to individual errors. That said, he is still falling prey to the galactico, fit all our shiny Bartomeu signings into an 11. The times he has not done that, the performance and results are satisfactory.

Personally, I still prefer Messi to Greizmann. Messi is just the better overall player for me, despite the imbalances. I think 2 true wingers out wide with him in the hole and either Greiz or Martin leading the line could work with some time and chemistry. Also, Koeman has to sort out the pivot situation, a key reason why Messi is not getting into the box enough.

Long post but I am so tired of this forum bashing Leo every time we do not have a good result. It is beyond old, it is typical 14 year old hissy-fit bullshit. Not saying you are doing this serghei but it is a joke to see this from other forum members when we are keeping him somewhat against his will.

Birdy said:

Both of you know the difference between 'stats' and 'ratings' right?



Of course, because this reading is out of place, and you would cling to any out-of-place reading that salvages king Leo from criticism.

ONLY IF one has never watched Liverpool play, he/she would say that Salah does not counter-press and is free of responsibilities.
LMAOL seriously turn on your telly and watch any Liverpool game, Salah presses like crazy and tracks back as far as his responsibility is, something that Messi never does.

Not to repeat all the points Serghei brought about the 'structured-free' role. But the initial premise ('Salah does not press') is so out of reality that one should not take seriously these arguments.

You (Daniele) have not yet presented a single argument to counter the criticism on Messi's performances, and you still boast that Messi critics cannot prove their points through formal logic (LOL).

As times passes by, you (Messi fanboys) are becoming more pathetic with any substance in your chattering disappearing and only your emotional blindness being left.

Click to expand...

My bad I wanted to have a substantive conversation and not have some pissy-fit, no I’m more right, pedantic-ass Twitter argument on here. Imagine thinking not wanting to argue and piss about like a 5 year old is an out of place post.

If you derisively fight and bicker with others on here, get a fucking grip. We support the same fucking club. This forum does not exist solely to placate your inferiority complexes due to being a fucking loser.

JohnN said:

Ok. The stats and ratings are Messi biased and "numbers and theories out of a random forum dude's ass" have more merit.
I' ve got it.

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I am not sure what are you talking about.
CL:
Juve 2:0, Messi penalty
Kiev 2:1, Messi penalty
Ferencvaros 5:1, Messi penalty

La liga:
Messi penalty
Messi penalty
Messi vs 10 men (red card)
Messi 1 goal from an open play

Nt team:
Zero goals

It's December.
Iirc he has played 17 matches, tried 70 shots, scored 1 goal from an open play vs 11 men (since in 11 vs 11 he is dispossed easily and doesn't have time to shoot freely due to loss of pace).

Cou, Griezz, Fati, Dembele, Braith all have way better scoring stats.

Even Lamparditic has way better stats.

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

So there is a lot to dig in on here:

When it comes to Messi v. Salah, it is true that Salah usually starts in wider positions than Messi does. Salah plays as a false winger if you will, he starts on the wing and then drifts inside and you are spot on for recognizing that this movement opens up the space for Trent to maraud. It is precisely what we had when Dani was here. Messi on the other hand really has been playing almost exclusively in the hole. He starts in the middle usually and sometimes goes to the wing, sometimes drops deep etc. His heat map against Cadiz demonstrates this:

The lack of positional discipline from Messi has been wavering since Lucho. The genesis of this began when he came back from injury in 2016. Since then, he has played much more as a CAM than a RW and it was something Lucho never disciplined against as he had success giving MSN freedom. But even then, it unbalanced the system. He tried to have Raki sit deeper and wider to negate the loss and even inverted Dani a bit, but it still fell short against Atleti. So this has been a long-term trend and nothing new. We needed managers with the invention to create a system that is in-step with our philosophy and have a solution for Messi. Ernie and Setien clearly were not at the caliber required. But this is the shortcomings of Bartomeu and not Messi for real. Especially with the GOAT form he was in during 17-18, his production overcame the imbalance. So basically, the right manager could minimize the imbalance and still maximize Messi?s output. It?s the lack of positional interchanges and creativity from the midfield that are highlighting the imbalances right now. Bartomeu simply failed to hire someone who could work this out. So this is complex, there are a multitude of factors playing into this and why both: A) I have not given up on Messi yet and B) why blaming Messi right now, especially considering the fucking circumstances of the summer, is shortsighted and reactionary.

One thing I slightly disagree with though is the lack of reasoning for Messi dropping deep. First off, in terms of their approach to the game, I see a lot of similarities to Ernie and Ronnie. The difference is that Ernie inherited a team that knew how to win while Ronald has a team that knows how to lose. With Messi, he has not had a functional midfield since 2015, largely due to the lack of a system we had under Ernie. Especially once we lost the Don, the only real playmaker we had was Messi. Now at least Frenkie offers us some control in the build up phase again (another reason why Messi would drop, he would often have to drop because no one else could play a pass that could move the opponents lines in the 2nd third of the pitch) but we still don?t quite have the creativity required in midfield at the moment. So Messi dropping deep is a shortcoming of the squad, not of Messi.

Lastly, Ronald to be fair, is better than Setien and Valverde. He properly prepared the team physically and has us at least somewhat fit again. I think he has us pressing better and our wing play has improved. 9 points have come down to individual errors. That said, he is still falling prey to the galactico, fit all our shiny Bartomeu signings into an 11. The times he has not done that, the performance and results are satisfactory.

Personally, I still prefer Messi to Greizmann. Messi is just the better overall player for me, despite the imbalances. I think 2 true wingers out wide with him in the hole and either Greiz or Martin leading the line could work with some time and chemistry. Also, Koeman has to sort out the pivot situation, a key reason why Messi is not getting into the box enough.

Long post but I am so tired of this forum bashing Leo every time we do not have a good result. It is beyond old, it is typical 14 year old hissy-fit bullshit. Not saying you are doing this serghei but it is a joke to see this from other forum members when we are keeping him somewhat against his will.

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remarkable post

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

Long post but I am so tired of this forum bashing Leo every time we do not have a good result. It is beyond old, it is typical 14 year old hissy-fit bullshit. Not saying you are doing this serghei but it is a joke to see this from other forum members when we are keeping him somewhat against his will.

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I criticize Messi harshly and often, I own up to it. I believe it's more than justified looking at where we are in time and the status of the team currently.

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

The lack of positional discipline from Messi has been wavering since Lucho. The genesis of this began when he came back from injury in 2016. Since then, he has played much more as a CAM than a RW and it was something Lucho never disciplined against as he had success giving MSN freedom. But even then, it unbalanced the system. He tried to have Raki sit deeper and wider to negate the loss and even inverted Dani a bit, but it still fell short against Atleti. So this has been a long-term trend and nothing new.

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Sure, totally correct. Except, this is a path that is going wrong for Messi. He declines with the passing of time as he gets worse, less mobile, and even less motivated. So, what in 2018 was very much the positive side, when comparing the beneficial things that Messi brought with the bad things he caused, is simply not there now. And not because of the manager. And applying logic, it's very unlikely this negative balance will be overturned as Messi grows even older and slower.

And, to be fair, we didn't see this high-level criticism on Messi in 2018, but a rather mild one. So the increased criticism on Messi is following a real trend that has been developing for about a year. Currently, his performance is at a very very worrying level and it is not looking like it will be corrected.

One thing though. Maybe you can explain why Messi started to often vacate his position on the right after the team pulverized everything with him as RW in the year before? Because this is one of the events that make me think he doesn't have a reason for what he does on the field except for his personal prefference.

In my opinion, the reason was very clear. He simply likes to play centrally and not wide. This was the case since Pep moved him False 9. So this is actually a clear case of Messi doing what he pleases, not what the team needed, and not what tactically made sense (as clearly proven by his stellar 14-15 season playing RW and cutting inside on his left).

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

We needed managers with the invention to create a system that is in-step with our philosophy and have a solution for Messi. Ernie and Setien clearly were not at the caliber required. But this is the shortcomings of Bartomeu and not Messi for real. Especially with the GOAT form he was in during 17-18, his production overcame the imbalance. So basically, the right manager could minimize the imbalance and still maximize Messi?s output. It?s the lack of positional interchanges and creativity from the midfield that are highlighting the imbalances right now. Bartomeu simply failed to hire someone who could work this out. So this is complex, there are a multitude of factors playing into this and why both: A) I have not given up on Messi yet and B) why blaming Messi right now, especially considering the fucking circumstances of the summer, is shortsighted and reactionary.

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We don't anymore because Messi doesn't pay off and we have more things to lose if we build our team around a near-finished Messi. We did under EV. And EV got close to implementing a system that could handle the imbalance of Messi and Suarez, especially on the defensive end. In the end, we were close to getting something out of it (boring football aside), but the other downsides in the team (unreliable defense, lack of some key players on some spots, our frail mentality away from home in CL etc.) prevented a treble in 2018.

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

One thing I slightly disagree with though is the lack of reasoning for Messi dropping deep. First off, in terms of their approach to the game, I see a lot of similarities to Ernie and Ronnie. The difference is that Ernie inherited a team that knew how to win while Ronald has a team that knows how to lose. With Messi, he has not had a functional midfield since 2015, largely due to the lack of a system we had under Ernie. Especially once we lost the Don, the only real playmaker we had was Messi. Now at least Frenkie offers us some control in the build up phase again (another reason why Messi would drop, he would often have to drop because no one else could play a pass that could move the opponent's lines in the 2nd third of the pitch) but we still don?t quite have the creativity required in midfield at the moment. So Messi dropping deep is a shortcoming of the squad, not of Messi.

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True, Valverde and Koeman are very similar, except they arrived at the team at completely different moments. EV took over an aging but far from the finished team that still had some top football left. The crisis back then was not a real crisis, but more of a purely image/marketing crisis by losing Neymar. That team almost won the league (save vs a fuck-up vs Malaga and some hilarious referee robberies in the 2nd part of that season) vs one of the best Madrid sides ever. Uncomparable to the team in shambles that got trashed 8-2 in CL that Koman inherited.

But, the lack of a midfield playmaker is not a reason to drop deep in itself, simply because in modern football very few teams require a "10" to create chances. Who was the playmaker of Liverpool with Milner, Henderson, Wijnaldum? They didn't have one. Milner and Henderson are high work rate reliable players, but far from technically proficient. And Wijnaldum was not a creator, but a box to box player known for his habit of scoring clutch goals. You didn't see players up front dropping non-stop to pick up balls. Why? Because they generated a lot of movement up front, so the midfield didn't have to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak.

That's what we need. And this is what the 2nd string team in CL showed. That with much better movement, more work rate, more dedication, you generate more intensity, faster transition, more pressing, more offensive runs from more players, with greater presence in the box. Add all of that, and suddenly you find that midfielders have to be less stellar on the ball to do a top job.

The way I see it, low movement and low work rate put you in a spot where you require insane technique and the ability to create chances. And even then that technique might not be enough. Instead, great movement drops the skill required on the ball (doesn't mean you can be a total bum on the ball, and you will be great if you run a lot, but you get the point). That's why a technically subpar midfield like Liverpool's trashed us, even with their 2nd string attack in the decisive Anfield game (with Origi and Shaquiri). Movement, intensity, pressure.

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

Personally, I still prefer Messi to Greizmann. Messi is just the better overall player for me, despite the imbalances. I think 2 true wingers out wide with him in the hole and either Greiz or Martin leading the line could work with some time and chemistry. Also, Koeman has to sort out the pivot situation, a key reason why Messi is not getting into the box enough.

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I don't see it. Not now at least. He doesn't even want to be here anymore.

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

So there is a lot to dig in on here:

When it comes to Messi v. Salah, it is true that Salah usually starts in wider positions than Messi does. Salah plays as a false winger if you will, he starts on the wing and then drifts inside and you are spot on for recognizing that this movement opens up the space for Trent to maraud. It is precisely what we had when Dani was here. Messi on the other hand really has been playing almost exclusively in the hole. He starts in the middle usually and sometimes goes to the wing, sometimes drops deep etc. His heat map against Cadiz demonstrates this:

The lack of positional discipline from Messi has been wavering since Lucho. The genesis of this began when he came back from injury in 2016. Since then, he has played much more as a CAM than a RW and it was something Lucho never disciplined against as he had success giving MSN freedom. But even then, it unbalanced the system. He tried to have Raki sit deeper and wider to negate the loss and even inverted Dani a bit, but it still fell short against Atleti. So this has been a long-term trend and nothing new. We needed managers with the invention to create a system that is in-step with our philosophy and have a solution for Messi. Ernie and Setien clearly were not at the caliber required. But this is the shortcomings of Bartomeu and not Messi for real. Especially with the GOAT form he was in during 17-18, his production overcame the imbalance. So basically, the right manager could minimize the imbalance and still maximize Messi?s output. It?s the lack of positional interchanges and creativity from the midfield that are highlighting the imbalances right now. Bartomeu simply failed to hire someone who could work this out. So this is complex, there are a multitude of factors playing into this and why both: A) I have not given up on Messi yet and B) why blaming Messi right now, especially considering the fucking circumstances of the summer, is shortsighted and reactionary.

One thing I slightly disagree with though is the lack of reasoning for Messi dropping deep. First off, in terms of their approach to the game, I see a lot of similarities to Ernie and Ronnie. The difference is that Ernie inherited a team that knew how to win while Ronald has a team that knows how to lose. With Messi, he has not had a functional midfield since 2015, largely due to the lack of a system we had under Ernie. Especially once we lost the Don, the only real playmaker we had was Messi. Now at least Frenkie offers us some control in the build up phase again (another reason why Messi would drop, he would often have to drop because no one else could play a pass that could move the opponents lines in the 2nd third of the pitch) but we still don?t quite have the creativity required in midfield at the moment. So Messi dropping deep is a shortcoming of the squad, not of Messi.

Lastly, Ronald to be fair, is better than Setien and Valverde. He properly prepared the team physically and has us at least somewhat fit again. I think he has us pressing better and our wing play has improved. 9 points have come down to individual errors. That said, he is still falling prey to the galactico, fit all our shiny Bartomeu signings into an 11. The times he has not done that, the performance and results are satisfactory.

Personally, I still prefer Messi to Greizmann. Messi is just the better overall player for me, despite the imbalances. I think 2 true wingers out wide with him in the hole and either Greiz or Martin leading the line could work with some time and chemistry. Also, Koeman has to sort out the pivot situation, a key reason why Messi is not getting into the box enough.

Long post but I am so tired of this forum bashing Leo every time we do not have a good result. It is beyond old, it is typical 14 year old hissy-fit bullshit. Not saying you are doing this serghei but it is a joke to see this from other forum members when we are keeping him somewhat against his will.

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Top post. I applaud you for having the energy to put it down in type. The continual narrative from a group of posters on here has the effect on all those who disagree or see it differently to the point of siply not bothering to couteract the points. Kudos.

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

My bad I wanted to have a substantive conversation and not have some pissy-fit, no I’m more right, pedantic-ass Twitter argument on here. Imagine thinking not wanting to argue and piss about like a 5 year old is an out of place post.

If you derisively fight and bicker with others on here, get a fucking grip. We support the same fucking club. This forum does not exist solely to placate your inferiority complexes due to being a fucking loser.

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Sorry, but you start 'ad hominem' attacks like 'you are a fucking loser' 'get a grip' etc

I said the plain thing that your initial premise is out of reality (Salah being given a pass on pressing by Klop).
I bet you have not watched many Liverpool games to say so. Having watched almost all Liverpool games since 2018, I cannot start a conversation with someone stating something out and out false, because it's evident that you don't know what you are talking about (maybe that's what you assume based on the few games you have watched and maybe you have not paid much attention. Who knows?)
Important thing is for any conversation to flourish you have to agree on factual stuff.
That's the starting point.

I think I am a user who puts some effort in replying and compiling long posts when necessary.
So, if you want a substantive conversation, do some homework, watch some Liverpool games, and come back with the factual stuff clear enough.

Daniele said:

Why should I cling to the theories that defend Messi?
Why don't you accept that I (like many others here) have an opinion not necessarily influenced by prejudices or in line with yours?

You neutralize all my thoughts, labeling me in a prejudicial and derogatory way "Messi fanboy".
So, who is really biased?

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I do not know you and I do not have any intention of negating you personally (contrary to what you may assume).
I am patiently trying to see if there is any substantial point in your thoughts that has not been debunked already.

But my patience is not limitless.
When Serghei, BBZ, Te amo, and others here constantly and laboriously prove every Messi Fanboy camp point weak and incapable of answering our criticism, you (all Messi fanboys here) just overlook that and move on. You never admit concession.
The problem is you just can't do that in an argumentative dispute.

How are you expecting people to respect your thoughts when you refuse to acknowledge that points brought in against Messi have never been answered even slightly.

Perfect example of how you (Messi fanboy camp) never really counter our points is your answers below:

Daniele said:

Despite this, there is no team that presses from the beginning to the end of the game. They would be monsters.
The point is to press well, in a coordinated way and chorally supporting the right triggers.

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That is happening in football nowadays contrary to what you say.
Liverpool and Bayern, City and then many other lesser sides exercise pressing until the end of the game. They conserve energy not by ceasing pressing at any point, but by moving in an orderly way and not run like headless chickens.

Daniele said:

Messi can do this like a player of his age.

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No, he cannot. Simple empirical observation gathered from the last 6 years to say the least.
He presses for a little bit when he wants, never consistently, and with no discernible pattern (hence it's not coach directive)

Daniele said:

on the provisions given by the coach in this sense, who must also take into account the athletic ability of his players

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This means that the coach should allow Messi as much pressing as his athletic ability allows, which is minimal?
In that sense you already conceded that a team with Messi pressing as much as his athletic ability allows will press... NOT THAT much compared to teams where 10 players pressure all the time.

Daniele said:

AT THE SAME TIME I think he is the only one capable of creating superiority by jumping man in tight spaces (still like no others in the world), and capable of inventing something out of nothing

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First of all, I think you are confusing his past with his present.
In the past, yeah, he was able to create out of nothing goals assists breaks and provide a chance with high xG (or finish a chance with low xG)
Can he still do that currently? No way. He thinks he can because he starts attempts that resemble in concept his old 'out - of - nowhere' magic and most of the time end miserably. This season to say the least, but if you examine him in retrospect with open mind you can definitely see declining every year in that ability.

Daniele said:

The strengths and weaknesses of playing with messi are, in perspective, more advantageous than playing without.

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Proven the OPPOSITE according to the points above:
Magic-out-of nowhere: 98% this season absent (new problem), so it's an 'expensive' risk to take for the 2% of the time that he delivers that. Expensive, because it leads to possession loss. So MINUS here
Structural and positional chaos in attack with him (old problem): MINUS
Non-existent pressing (whenever he wants, a few times per game) (old problem): MINUS

I have tree MINUSes already and I am looking in earnest for the PLUS here..

Birdy said:

When Serghei, BBZ, Te amo, and others here constantly and laboriously prove every Messi Fanboy camp point weak and incapable of answering our criticism, you (all Messi fanboys here) just overlook that and move on. You never admit concession.

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Can you really have a honest and nuanced argument when one camp starts with an obvious agenda against Messi?

Impossible to find common ground so there's no reall debate just pointless repetition and seeing who can shout the loudest....