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Thread: 10 - Lionel Messi - V6

  1. #7681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Andrésº8 View Post
    you guys still cant understand why liverpool won the champions can you? liverpool is much better team than barcelona right now, and messi individually is the best ever but he makes his team worse when Barca dont have the ball
    Agree with this part. Liverpool was a better than than Barca last year. The only reason Barca was (solidly) 3rd best in Europe last year was because of Messi. Even though Liverpool was a better team, Barca almost went through because of him.

    Here are some defensive stats for Liverpool to put things in perspective:

    Total goals conceded in 7 knockout matches, 5. Two of these were scored by Messi & two he was not involved with.

    Maximum number of goals conceded in 51 league and CL matches by Liverpool (group/Knockout), three. Once by Barca; once by Crystal Palace (go figure).

    Number of times Liverpool conceded 1 or fewer goals in those 51 matches, 45.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Andrésº8 View Post
    .... but he makes his team worse when Barca dont have the ball
    This is probably true if you compared the Barca defense to if you replaced Messi with one of the few forwards who works hard and well off the ball. However the same applies (team worse defensively) with CR, Aguero, Lewandoski, Zlatan--or if you go back to Maradona or most any of the great strikers. The bottom line is 10 field players and good tactics should easily be able to make up for one weaker defensive player. Shaqiri/Sturridge was on the field for Liverpool after all, and Klopp loved Coutinho, all worse defenders than Messi. But they have a team concept, collectively have pace, and other guys know and do their roles with vigor and confidence.

    In short I strongly believe Barcelona would be better with 1) a team with better off the ball coverage, pace and pressure from the OTHER 10 players + a midfield that moves better and controls possession better (so Messi rarely to never has to expend energy just to relieve pressure in our own half) than alternately, 2) somehow try to squeeze more defensive coverage, pressing and 90 minute all over the pitch intensity out of one Lionel Messi. I recognize this is an opinion to believe #1 is a more viable and winning strategy than trying #2.

  2. #7682
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    Maradona was a genius in the field yet he seems to have a poor IQ. Don’t be surprised if Messi is of the same soil

  3. #7683
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    Quote Originally Posted by kattanib View Post
    Maradona was a genius in the field yet he seems to have a poor IQ. Don’t be surprised if Messi is of the same soil
    Personally i think this too, although i do find that it's the case with most footballers though.

  4. #7684
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    We should not base an asessment of Messi on a single unfortunate match where Liverpool scored goals that Barça should not have conceded and where clear Barça chances were not converted (in particular by former Liverpool players who did not convert 1-on-1 opportunities).
    We have a tendency to rationalize results after the fact, to refuse to acknowledge the element of chance. Jürgen Klopp stated that Barça had more clear chances to score at Anfield than they had at Camp Nou, and I agree with him. What enabled Barça to win 3:0 at home was some luck and the genius of Messi. What enabled Liverpool to win at home was a lot of luck, a lack of fight by some Barça players, and an extraordinary performance by GK Alisson Becker.
    Unfortunately, our own usually very reliable GK did not have his best day.
    Blaming the defeat on Messi is ridiculous. He did his best, that his shooting accuracy was not quite at his usual superhuman level cannot be used to accuse him of letting his team down. He definitely compensated by providing 4 potential assists that were wasted by his team mates.
    If at least one had been converted, we would all acknowledge that Lionel Messi is the best player of this generation, and that we are blessed to be able to watch him week by week do what no player ever was able to do.

  5. #7685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altomonte View Post
    We have a tendency to rationalize results after the fact, to refuse to acknowledge the element of chance. Jürgen Klopp stated that Barça had more clear chances to score at Anfield than they had at Camp Nou, and I agree with him. What enabled Barça to win 3:0 at home was some luck and the genius of Messi. What enabled Liverpool to win at home was a lot of luck, a lack of fight by some Barça players, and an extraordinary performance by GK Alisson Becker
    This sounds like a comment Valverde would say. Even with more injuries to deal with and a tough match between the two legs, Liverpool were clearly the better team over 180 minutes. It's hilarious how you claim their luck in the second leg was so much bigger than ours in the first. The first leg should have been a draw or narrow Liverpool win based on the general play and the second leg should have been 2-3 goals in their favor. They also took their foot off a bit after scoring the third. What extraordinary performance from Alisson are you even referring to? His saves from Suarez, Coutinho, and Alba were all ones that a decent goalkeeper should be making.

    I also don't get how you can talk about chance when we have been CONSISTENTLY shit in almost every big CL away match over recent years. 2-0 to Atletico, 3-1 to City, 4-0 to PSG, 3-0 to Juve, 3-0 to Roma, and now 4-0 to Liverpool. Our performance at Old Trafford in the quarterfinals was also shocking and would have gotten us hammered against any decent team. The 1-1 draw at Chelsea last season probably should have been a loss as well.

    Anfield wasn't a one off or chance event, it was just the latest in a long pattern of repeated failures.

  6. #7686
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    These days his off ball movement is criminal.
    Should not be tolerated at all.

    Only 1st class wankers accept these behaviour

  7. #7687
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    Once Leo scores tomorrow and guides Argentina into the semi-finals this thread will calm down a bit

  8. #7688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro View Post
    Once Leo scores tomorrow and guides Argentina into the semi-finals this thread will calm down a bit
    Let's hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Andrésº8 View Post
    you guys still cant understand why liverpool won the champions can you? liverpool is much better team than barcelona right now, and messi individually is the best ever but he makes his team worse when Barca dont have the ball, he won the la liga cause the others were weak as fuk, lets see next year if he can win walking like he is walking in copa america, or like i saw him walking all season without the ball, you and the guy above you still cant understand what football is about, he is playing like if he had 38 years old...he only have 32 still very young to walking in the pitch like if he was a fuking grandpa...he lost that fire he had and i think that is normal cause he already won everything he could, the hardest thing is to stay on the top rather than reach it, he is on top cause of genius but his attitude lately is like if he already feels tired about football, you can see his body expression in the field, he is tired of football
    I'm getting irritated with his off the ball movements, he's just 32 and ronaldo that's 34 has better off the ball movements. Let's not forget that messi is a captain who is supposed to lead by example.I hope he changes this in his next match cause the world is watching and it's just not cool (whether you're the best player or not)

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    Quote Originally Posted by feggydinho View Post
    I'm getting irritated with his off the ball movements, he's just 32 and ronaldo that's 34 has better off the ball movements.
    oh yeah, the old 'but, but ...ronaldo' debate. i guess you also like it when ronaldo doesn't show up until march and his team loses the league by then(not in juventus case since they don't have any rivals).

    they are not the same type of player, you dribbling idiot!!!

    ronaldo, after moving to real madrid, stopped creating(or reduced this aspect significantly) and started poaching. messi did it differently as he grew older, because of circumstances and because he is a player that never played as an out and out striker.

    it's not messi's fault that argentina and the barcelona team of the last 4 years don't have creative midfilders. otherwise he could have created less and poached more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by feggydinho View Post
    I'm getting irritated with his off the ball movements, he's just 32 and ronaldo that's 34 has better off the ball movements. Let's not forget that messi is a captain who is supposed to lead by example.I hope he changes this in his next match cause the world is watching and it's just not cool (whether you're the best player or not)
    Yet Messi's been outscoring Ronaldo despite dropping deeper and deeper and Ronaldo basically becoming a goal hanger.

  12. #7692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritchie View Post
    Yet Messi's been outscoring Ronaldo despite dropping deeper and deeper and Ronaldo basically becoming a goal hanger.
    Because he is the better player and better goalscorer.
    Ronaldo is more versitile as a goalscorer but not as a player nor is he better in both aspects.
    6RACIES XAVI

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    Quote Originally Posted by FCB1987 View Post
    This sounds like a comment Valverde would say. Even with more injuries to deal with and a tough match between the two legs, Liverpool were clearly the better team over 180 minutes. It's hilarious how you claim their luck in the second leg was so much bigger than ours in the first. The first leg should have been a draw or narrow Liverpool win based on the general play and the second leg should have been 2-3 goals in their favor. They also took their foot off a bit after scoring the third. What extraordinary performance from Alisson are you even referring to? His saves from Suarez, Coutinho, and Alba were all ones that a decent goalkeeper should be making.

    I also don't get how you can talk about chance when we have been CONSISTENTLY shit in almost every big CL away match over recent years. 2-0 to Atletico, 3-1 to City, 4-0 to PSG, 3-0 to Juve, 3-0 to Roma, and now 4-0 to Liverpool. Our performance at Old Trafford in the quarterfinals was also shocking and would have gotten us hammered against any decent team. The 1-1 draw at Chelsea last season probably should have been a loss as well.

    Anfield wasn't a one off or chance event, it was just the latest in a long pattern of repeated failures.
    I maintain that Alisson Becker was the difference maker. Ter Stegen had a bad night and Alisson had a very good one. He was MOM in both the semifinal and the final.
    It's "water under the bridge" now but Alisson, along with VVD won the CL for Liverpool. Also, it may have been a blessing rather than a handicap for Liverpool to play the "reserves" Origi and Wijnaldum. Salah might have blown the chances converted by Origi.
    I don't want to defend Valverde, he made serious mistakrs, starting with having Semedo on the bench and failing to motivate his players. He should have sent the B team to Celta with an assistant coach, and dedicated himself 100% to preparation for Anfield. He completely underestimated what high intensity can accomplish.
    The Barça win at home was due to Messi, the Liverpool win was due to Klopp.
    Final point: did Liverpool have an advantage because they played the return game at home?
    Last edited by Altomonte; 27th June 2019 at 06:23 PM.

  14. #7694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altomonte View Post
    I maintain that Alisson Becker was the difference maker. Ter Stegen had a bad night and Alisson had a very good one. ....
    I don't want to defend Valverde.... failing to motivate his players.
    The Barça win at home was due to Messi, the Liverpool win was due to Klopp.
    Very much on point but does fit with a narrative of blame, at least the 1st point. (the other part is who would have figured Alba, after playing the highest level of any left back in the world all year, would have a career worst performance). The latter point I think does have some blame--managing in particular--the effort and energy put out of Liverpool players was on a whole level different than the Barca players. The faces and body language of Winaldjm, Origi, Milner, Alexander-Arnold--a whole level different of passion put in the match.


    However the Messi critics really have not answered this. How do they want Barca to get better? 1) sell him to start anew; 2) build around Messi with a focus on the other 10 players having better off the ball coverage, pace and defensive pressure + a midfield that is more athletic defensively and controls possession better (so Messi rarely to never has to expend energy just to relieve pressure in our own half), or 3) by putting more pressure on him and expecting to squeezing more defensive coverage, pressing and 90 minute all over the pitch intensity out of one Lionel Messi.

    It is easy to bitch, but what are their solutions. I know where my focus would be among those options.

  15. #7695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Scott View Post

    However the Messi critics really have not answered this. How do they want Barca to get better? 1) sell him to start anew; 2) build around Messi with a focus on the other 10 players having better off the ball coverage, pace and defensive pressure + a midfield that is more athletic defensively and controls possession better (so Messi rarely to never has to expend energy just to relieve pressure in our own half), or 3) by putting more pressure on him and expecting to squeezing more defensive coverage, pressing and 90 minute all over the pitch intensity out of one Lionel Messi.

    It is easy to bitch, but what are their solutions. I know where my focus would be among those options.
    1) Put Messi at false 9 in big games so we aren't defending in a 442 with 1 attacker who doesn't press much which forces us to sit deep.

    2) Demanding Messi to show a bit more effort and leadership in those few very big matches.

    3) Getting better and more athletic players around him and our other aging players.

    4) Ideally getting a new manager.