10 - Lionel Messi - V6

catalinutzR80 said:

Not only tactics and coach . You think you can win a CL with a midfield with both potato Rakitic and Busquets in it ? Put Messi in front of inform Modric and Kross and you'll win the CL 5 years straight.

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not only that you had the deepest and best backline those years and a fine destroyer in front of them. switch messi and cr and that real team would be winning trebles--not fighting usually for one trophy and needing breaks to get it.

getting more active players (de jong, greizmann) will help.

but we have to remember is barca's defense and midfield got scredded with players like origi, shaqiri, winaldojm and milner. that is reflection of the managers not the class of players in the team.

and again we are talking about an 11 man sport, 14 with subs. you couldnt replace messi with cr or anyone else and have near the success barca has had last year, past 5 years, 10 years, 12 years, etc. there is no human who would have done better--last year. as brilliant as he is--just one guy vs 11, get you but kicked in 8-9-10 other spots, goat isnt enough.

catalinutzR80 said:

Not only tactics and coach . You think you can win a CL with a midfield with both potato Rakitic and Busquets in it ? Put Messi in front of inform Modric and Kross and you'll win the CL 5 years straight.

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winning the CL with Kroos and Modric is easier than winning it with Xavi and Iniesta

Arizona Scott said:

not only that you had the deepest and best backline those years and a fine destroyer in front of them. switch messi and cr and that real team would be winning trebles--not fighting usually for one trophy and needing breaks to get it.

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Madrid would have been the dominant team domestically with Messi over CR in the past few years, but there's no way they would have won those Champions Leagues with Messi's knockout performances from those seasons instead of Ronaldo's. His performances in the quarterfinals from 16-18 would have gotten Madrid knocked out then every time.

xXKonan said:

I think the most frustrating thing about Messi for me is not really his on-pitch performances but the unwillingness to come out and realize that things could really be better even if that means he has to rub some feelings the wrong way. But instead, he seems content with backing the likes of Valverde and letting him continue to drive the team further to the ground with incompetence.

IMO he is afraid of speaking out and coming off as a total bad guy that he's throwing his own coaches and some fellow players of his under the bus. My respect would increase ten-fold if he came out and actually criticized the manager and some of the players because frankly it's been a long time coming. If guys like Rakitic, Busi and the other captains, etc can't deal with it then they should do everyone a favor and leave.

His words would mean a lot. I'm sick of the idea of some key Veterans and the manager hiding behind Messi because he basically allows it.

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It’s funny because back in 2013 Messi talked about Faus about how he was trying to run the club on radio (?), and that’s probably the only time Messi has ever spoke out against the board directly. He’s done it before, so I believe that he’s definitely keeping his mouth shut for a reason.

BarcaOG said:

Sure, but he did not. your point is a hypothetical. the world would be a better place if we all were rich, but we are not, so there is no point imagining that. You can only measure what is infront of you, and the truth is that Messi's career did not end in 2015. So the half a decade of failure cannot simply be wished away. it happened.

Finally, yes, he was great in the 3-0; no doubt. but CL ties are two legged affairs. again, you can't just ignore what did happen: we played a second match, we were hammered, and Messi did not produce a killing blow. those are the facts.

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Yes, but you only focus on Maradona's success and on Messi's failures, because that's what's fresh on your mind.

Maradona has never won the CL. Never won La Liga in 3 attempts. Only won 2 Serie A titles out of 7. Maradona never won the Copa America.

Here is a history of his performances in the Copa America:
- When he represented Argentina in the 1979 Copa America, Argentina finished last in the group, with Maradona scoring only once. GOAT
- Maradona was injured in the 1983 Copa America, where they had another dismal campaign getting knocked out at the group stages. GOAT
- Argentina had a good start to the 1987 Copa America as they topped their group, but fell to eventual champions Uruguay in the semi-finals. The God of Napoli ended the competition with three goals to his name. GOAT

History of his performances in the World Cup:
- Lost the 1982 World Cup.
- Won the 1986 World Cup.
- Lost the 1990 World Cup.
- Lost the 1994 World Cup and was sent home for doping.

La Liga
- Lost in 1982-1983
- Lost in in 1983-1984
- Lost in 1992-1993

Serie A
- Lost in 1984-1985
- Lost in 1985- 1986
- Won in 1986 - 1987
- Lost in 1987 -1988
- Lost in 1988 - 1989
- Won in 1989 - 1990
- Lost in 1990 - 1991

European Cup
- Lost it twice

So we can consider his career from 1982-1986 as half a decade of failure.
And from 1987 to 1993 as another half a decade of failure.

BarcaOG said:

If we are seriously talking about the best ever, if that is the standard, well, I don't think Messi passes the test.

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I've said for years that his legacy has been ruined and it's mainly not through fault of his own, although he isn't blameless.

A shambles of a national team has really affected his standing whereas Ronaldo had the fluke of the Euros (where he had a poor tournament and went off early in the final) and Maradona always has 1986 and titles at Napoli where he was unplayable.

Had he played for Spain he'd have won everything internationally and would be hailed as the best ever almost undoubtedly, or even if Higuain wasn't a total bottler it'd have helped a lot.

For his club he's been playing for average managers since 2012 and a poor transfer strategy. With the exception of a season or two of MSN (when another treble was won) he's had to do everything himself as well (especially post-Iniesta) which means one bad game and CL is over.

Messi without ball is beyond horrendous now, really scary for him cause i love the guy, but if he thinks he can play with that displicence and win titles he is very wrong, he is literally one less when the team doesnt has the ball, in todays football the most important part of the game is played without the ball...

Leo will still score 50 goals next season

Don Andrésº8 said:

Messi without ball is beyond horrendous now, really scary for him cause i love the guy, but if he thinks he can play with that displicence and win titles he is very wrong, he is literally one less when the team doesnt has the ball, in todays football the most important part of the game is played without the ball...

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This is what we conclude after Messi had one of the best seasons in his career?! So you morons want him to be Messi but also Ronaldo, at the same time.

Does he have to prove something after all that he did for Barcelona? Of course not, you ungrateful idiots! The guy hits the final stretch of his career and you want him to behave as a 20 year old.

He could do a Ronaldo and just not play until March, pick up the pace then and we'll see how that goes. Don't think it will ever happen, but if there are still moaning bitches that want him to run more...

Don Andrésº8 said:

Messi without ball is beyond horrendous now, really scary for him cause i love the guy, but if he thinks he can play with that displicence and win titles he is very wrong, he is literally one less when the team doesnt has the ball, in todays football the most important part of the game is played without the ball...

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He's won Barca the last two titles at a canter and would have probably won the treble last year if his team mates had scored just one of the chances he set up on a plate at Anfield after bossing the first leg (and the quarter final tie). In fact if Dembele put away the chance in the first leg he set up at the end then the tie is done. This despite being in a mediocre team with a dog of a manager.

Imagine what he could still do in a good team, even without running himself into the ground.

^(Alik) add he won the UEFA Cup (today europa league) with Napoli.

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." Michael Jordan

Messi and Maradona are considered 2 of the abosolutely best ever for the magic they did on the pitch, not for whant they won with the team. Soccer is a team sport.
Both had fantastic performances and horrible performances, they are not gods but human.

Ritchie said:

I've said for years that his legacy has been ruined and it's mainly not through fault of his own, although he isn't blameless.

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He backed valverde and wants to play with his subpar friends, That's directly on him.

Have captains ever publicly condemned their manager? Genuinely curious if it has happened, or whether it is maybe one or two times throughout the last few decades. Yet Messi is getting the blame for keeping Valverde?

Messi has been to 4 international finals with Argentina. His defense kept him a clean sheet for at least 90 minutes in the last 3 of those 4 finals.

Messi couldn't score or create a single goal in any of those major finals to deliver his country an international trophy. After carrying Argentina through the group stage in 2014, he got carried by his defense through the knockout rounds to the final. His missed the first penalty in the shootout in '16.

The lad had his opportunities, had his help and couldn't produce when it matters. A GOAT does not go into hiding in an international final 4 consecutive times.

Excuses. Managers. Higuain. Midfield.

The facts:

- 4 finals
- 0 G + 0 A

Phenomenal player, all-time best talent, but I have no sympathy for the way Leo's international career has played out.