Premier League 2018/19

mc_lovin said:

No need to look down on workhorses, and as squad players they are fine, but if you have to choose between workhorses and great talents, you pick the talented ones 10 out of 10 times. We are in the dynasty business. You cant build one on players like Fabinho, Henderson, Milner, Wijnaldum etc because you cant sustain dominance/greatness with workhorses. And I know its easy to shit on Barcelona right now, but we did a lot of stuff right in the past 20-30 years. Much more so than Liverpool.

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Ideally you combine the two (de Jong, Griezmann), if the guy is exceptional like Messi or Ronaldo but doesn't work then you can afford to carry him. Any more than two of those players is not going to cut it in today's football. You need almost everyone on your team working to be able to press properly in today's high intensity football.

Look at what happened to Bale in Madrid, it wasn't worth carrying two guys that don't work hard, and Ronaldo was obviously better. So Zidane went for Vasquez ahead of him. He also removed James for Casemiro and it was a winning formula for them.

DonAK said:

Anyway if you want a technical, physical, hardworking midfield you already have Frenkie de Jong. Arthur could get there, hardworking and physical for his size and if you want to add some attacking flair with it you can sign Kai Havertz for 100m next season and have three hardworking midfielders who are all in their early 20s.

There you have a possible dominant, best midfield in the World. If Arthur doesn't work out you can sign a different type of CDM if Frenkie is going to play as an interior.

Griezmann worked his ass off for Atletico and you saw Messi pressing and stepping up in the CL last season, him and Vidal were the only players pressing at Anfield.

But all that is for nothing if you don't complement those players with a good manager.

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I don't know much about this Havertz guy, but from the sounds of it he's my ideal player to round out the midfield. Box to box, tall, strong and decently fast. Helps defensively and makes penetrating runs. He rounds out the midfield with de Jong and Arthur.

So you and I are on the same page on this.

Hamzah said:

Ideally you combine the two (de Jong, Griezmann), if the guy is exceptional like Messi or Ronaldo but doesn't work then you can afford to carry him. Any more than two of those players is not going to cut it in today's football. You need almost everyone on your team working to be able to press properly in today's high intensity football.

Look at what happened to Bale in Madrid, it wasn't worth carrying two guys that don't work hard, and Ronaldo was obviously better. So Zidane went for Vasquez ahead of him. He also removed James for Casemiro and it was a winning formula for them.

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Vazquez isnt the best example, hes an obvious weakness and was born out of need (Bales terrible attitude, lack of right wingers) - Madrid would probably prefer someone more talented, who works less.


Regarding Havertz: I never watched him, but Im always sceptical when midfielders score that much. For example I watched Brundo Fernandes a few times and hes more like a forward/false midfielder and just fails the eye test (I guess thats why no transfer materialised). No judgement on Havertz though. Maybe he really is great. I just have the feeling he plays more like a 10 - and in modern football I prefer 2CMs+1DM (only position I wouldnt mind a classical workhorse).

Hamzah said:

People here praise Liverpool and rightly so, but look down on workhorses. I get trashed for talking about workhorses.

Their midfield has Fabinho, Henderson, Milner, Wijnaldum - all workhorses. Their attack has workhorse forwards (all three of Mane, Firmino, Salah).

Workhorse theory gets proven more and more every day. To win in 2019 you need workhorses, to be able to press intensely. You need speed and some strength as well. Ideally you have technical players who also have workhorse traits, and speed/strength. That is why I like players like Griezmann.

Guys like Busquets are washed in 2019.

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I do not think people talk down 'workhorses'.

But it is important to make a distinction between a world class player, and a normal good player that is used perfectly by a world class manager in a well oiled brilliant football system, and given textbook tactics every game. That is the distinction we need to make in cases of Milner and Henderson for example.

People big up these normal good players and downplay the influence of Klopp which is outrageous.

Also, Mane, Firmino and Salah are extremely technical players with skill and speed. They are not workhorses, but difference makers.

Hamzah said:

Workhorse theory gets proven more and more every day. To win in 2019 you need workhorses, to be able to press intensely. You need speed and some strength as well. Ideally you have technical players who also have workhorse traits, and speed/strength. That is why I like players like Griezmann.

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To win in 2019 in the Champions League you need top managers that have a well defined idea about how to play and instill that in their squad. That is the theory that is proven right.

Speed, strenght, this is also developed. That's why teams have specialized professionals in these areas. At Liverpool you can tell that they put a lot of emphasis on physical training. Getting these players in shape. Their match preparation is probably superior in every way to ours. Better tactical sessions, better fitness workout, better warm-ups. Better everything probably related to managing a football team.

In this day and age, having 2,3 world class players more than the opponent means jack shit if the other team is superior every other way. That is the lesson to be tought. But here we are caught in the Neymar saga, as if not having talented forwards is the issue of this team . Talent and quality in the team is there in abundance. It's everything else that is lacking.

Instead of people understanding what makes Liverpool a force these days, the superior management and system they have, they individually big up players that would perform nowhere near this level if they were put in a worse work environment.

serghei said:

To win in 2019 in the Champions League you need top managers that have a well defined idea about how to play and instill that in their squad. That is the theory that is proven right.

Speed, strenght, this is also developed. That's why teams have specialized professionals in these areas. At Liverpool you can tell that they put a lot of emphasis on physical training. Getting these players in shape. Their match preparation is probably superior in every way to ours. Better tactical sessions, better fitness workout, better warm-ups. Better everything probably related to managing a football team.

In this day and age, having 2,3 world class players more than the opponent means jack shit if the other team is superior every other way. That is the lesson to be tought. But here we are caught in the Neymar saga, as if not having talented forwards is the issue of this team . Talent and quality in the team is there in abundance. It's everything else that is lacking.

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Is Zidane a top manager with a well defined idea of how to play? Because he has 3 of the things

Andrew M said:

Is Zidane a top manager with a well defined idea of how to play? Because he has 3 of the things

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Zidane is no doubt a top manager. The level Madrid played in 2017 was the highest I've seen in 20 years of watching them. And sure, using crosses when you have a player like Cristiano Ronaldo in the box is a great tactic. So they did have a plan about how to play and that plan was very effective.

The problem with Zidane is that he had the luxury of having the greatest striker in CL history playing for his side, beating defenders in the box for fun and scoring a lot of goals. Now that this is gone, his abilities as a manager will be put more to the test. Crossing from both sides is not looking like such a good tactic now, and we'll see what Zidane comes up with as an alternative.

serghei said:

Zidane is no doubt a top manager. The level Madrid played in 2017 was the highest I've seen in 20 years of watching them. And sure, using crosses when you have a player like Cristiano Ronaldo in the box is a great tactic. So they did have a plan about how to play and that plan was very effective.

The problem with Zidane is that he had the luxury of having the greatest striker in CL history playing for his side, beating defenders in the box for fun and scoring a lot of goals. Now that this is gone, his abilities as a manager will be put more to the test. Crossing from both sides is not looking like such a good tactic now, and we'll see what Zidane comes up with as an alternative.

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Being a top manager is important, but so is having top players. Zidane wouldn't have won what he did without Ronaldo

Man Walker is shite. Brainless at the back just fouls his man every time, and brainless going forward with his decision making. Pace merchant and nothing more.

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]

I’m not downplaying the role of the manager, but these top managers find use for these players because they know they need workhorse traits in the team.

When I was talking about the Liverpool front three, I was bringing up the point that even the star players put their work in defensively and help in the pressing game.

I’m not saying the team should be filled with shite players that just run, which I think a lot of people misunderstand when I talk about workhorses. I’m saying that almost every player must be working in defence and the team must have some strength and speed to go along with technical ability.

I agree on the fitness thing, it’s clear the Barca coaches are behind on that area, but all the fitness in the world won’t make Busquets or Rakitic fast/strong enough. The sporting department needs to bring in modern players with a base level of speed/strength to work with and obviously the more technical they are the better.

Guys like Griezmann and de Jong are what’s needed in 2019, they have the base level of speed/strength/work rate and the technical ability. A pure technical guy with no physical traits like Busquets is not going to work. The current versions of Suarez and Rakitic aren’t going to work.

Hamzah said:

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]

I’m not downplaying the role of the manager, but these top managers find use for these players because they know they need workhorse traits in the team.

When I was talking about the Liverpool front three, I was bringing up the point that even the star players put their work in defensively and help in the pressing game.

I’m not saying the team should be filled with shite players that just run, which I think a lot of people misunderstand when I talk about workhorses. I’m saying that almost every player must be working in defence and the team must have some strength and speed to go along with technical ability.

I agree on the fitness thing, it’s clear the Barca coaches are behind on that area, but all the fitness in the world won’t make Busquets or Rakitic fast/strong enough. The sporting department needs to bring in modern players with a base level of speed/strength to work with and obviously the more technical they are the better.

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Of course. Every top manager asks a lot from his teams in terms of effort, speed and workrate. But the efficiency of these players is dictated by the system and the manager is in charge with the system.

Hard working players is not the hardest thing to get by. The hardest thing is finding the gifted managers that take those players and build great teams with them. Without proper managers, well oiled system and great staff, these players will quickly show their limitations. Because individually they are not good enough. Milner, playing in a system that is not helping him, individually, is an average player. You put him at Barcelona under Valverde and he will look like an Everton player.

Semedo for example is a physical specimen. He is one of the most criticized players in the squad. He has speed, strenght you name it. What good does it do for him under Valverde?

One one hand you have very well oiled systems where the team functions as a unit. And on the other hand you have system like Valverde's Barcelona where players move very little and are more or less asked to individually solve in game situations. For example, imagine a player like Henderson being pressed and nobody offering a pass option. A guy with such average technique would lose the ball 9 out of 10 times and would either do a stupid tackle or run like a headless chicken trying to recover the ball after he lost it. Or he would hopelessly kick the ball long. But in a well oiled system, a player like Henderson wouldn't be allowed to be cornered like that, precisely because the manager knows his limitations, and will make the necessary adjustments. That means for example, players making more runs and being less static when the ball is handled by a less-gifted midfielder technique-wise.

That's what I'm talking about, technically deficient players like Milner and Henderson, need great managers to not show their limitations in specific game situations. At Liverpool, under Klopp you barely seem them exposing their weak points, although they have them, because the manager is a great one and he has develop a plan to protect each player's weaknesses and highlight their strong points.

Barca needs a new coach who is good and can develop young players. Then the sporting department needs to give him the players HE wants, they need to be on the same page. Those players must be suited for modern football with the workrate and speed/strength with as much technical ability as possible. So yeah I agree about the manager being the first step because everything follows after that.

I know that’s a caption obvious statement but that’s the level Barca is at right now.

Amazing how Otamendi is a starter for Man City in 2019.

Andrew M said:

Being a top manager is important, but so is having top players. Zidane wouldn't have won what he did without Ronaldo

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Sure, but having a player like Ronaldo doesn't make everyone a great manager.

Madrid wouldn't have won 3 in a row with Benitez either for example.

It is very important to see how City use overload on the area where the ball is played, and underload the zones that are the farthest away from the ball.


We very rarely do that. What we do is pass the ball to the free man pointlessly for the whole game creating 1-2 chances with 80% possession. By the free man I don't mean a free man that we generate in key zones by moving well off the ball, and using 3rd man runs. The free man in Valverde's turgid possession football, is the man that the other team is not marking due to not being in a dangerous position.

serghei said:

Zidane is no doubt a top manager. The level Madrid played in 2017 was the highest I've seen in 20 years of watching them. And sure, using crosses when you have a player like Cristiano Ronaldo in the box is a great tactic. So they did have a plan about how to play and that plan was very effective.

The problem with Zidane is that he had the luxury of having the greatest striker in CL history playing for his side, beating defenders in the box for fun and scoring a lot of goals. Now that this is gone, his abilities as a manager will be put more to the test. Crossing from both sides is not looking like such a good tactic now, and we'll see what Zidane comes up with as an alternative.

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How is Zidane a top manager when he finished 14 points behind one of the weakest Barca teams in the league? and even with Ronaldo in his team? Their only CL win which was 'deserving' or convincing was in 2017, and even then they benefitted a lot from ref decisions (like the bayern game). 2018 was their luckiest CL win with Liverpool dominating them and Salah getting injured early on in the game in the final.