Why are people so obsessed with the Champions League?

FCBfan22 · May 2, 2018

BarçaBarça said:
You would sack Valverde even if we won a treble? OK mate

If we really loan Dembele and he is still relying on our 30+ old players in 95% of the games, yes. Because, every year we do that, it seems more clear to me that another 2000-2004-like period awaits once Messi retires. But this time, it will be longer, because as we speak, nobody is preparing for Messi departure. And we should be doing that already, because you can't spend 500 million in one summer.

Face it, Atleti and Real are much better prepared for the future than us. We need to start doing that. I'm fine if Valverde learns from his mistakes and changes things. But if he is still as stubborn next season as this one, playing Rakitić, Suarez and the likes in every game, he should go, regardless if he wins something.

BBZ8800 · May 2, 2018

FCBfan22 said:
If we really loan Dembele and he is still relying on our 30+ old players in 95% of the games, yes. Because, every year we do that, it seems more clear to me that another 2000-2004-like period awaits once Messi retires. But this time, it will be longer, because as we speak, nobody is preparing for Messi departure. And we should be doing that already, because you can't spend 500 million in one summer.

Face it, Atleti and Real are much better prepared for the future than us. We need to start doing that. I'm fine if Valverde learns from his mistakes and changes things. But if he is still as stubborn next season as this one, playing Rakitić, Suarez and the likes in every game, he should go, regardless if he wins something.

Tbf, we have a lot of burden on our shoulders.
For example, Messi.
I love him and everything, but as long as he will be here, we can't play a true 433.
He doesn't want to play on wings, he wants a free role.
And as long as he is here, you have to build a game around him, which means that we have to play shortpassing game through the middle.
It is quite hard to have wingers, Benzema in the middle and Messi behind them and have a team that works.
He CAN play as a false 9, but then we'll be easily neutralized through the crowded middle, as always in a CL.
So, Messi as a false 9 is not an answer for a CL level.

So, it is quite hard to move forward in terms of tactics while Messi is here.
All we can do is to repeat the same old things over and over. And we are doing exactly that, with Coutinho, Griezmann, Arthur etc.
We will build a short team around Messi, we will win La Liga and Real will win 8 CLs in the next 10 years.

And then, when Messi will be gone, we will still have a team of short players, but now without Messi.
So, we will probably need 8-10 years until we will turn the page and try something new.

Or Busquets, for example.
You can't play 442 because of him. Or you can, but we suck.
You can't bench him, and when he plays, he works well only in 433.
And then, if you play him and play 433, then Messi has a free role and you only have 2 free spots in attack.
That means that you can't have 2 wingers and Benzema in attack.

You can't change a formation, you can't try something new, you can't buy a different CF, and also: you can't do anything regarding Messi, Busi and others.

I am not saying that we should sell Messi or something.
But I am saying that our options are quite limited.

This will sound harsh, but now, on a larger sample, when Messi lost so many NT finals and how Barca lost 6 times in a CL in the last 7 years, maybe we should whisper and ask: hmm, maybe these teams who build their team only around Messi and who are one dimensional, can't cope on the highest level anymore?
We need some different options, and yet, our hands are locked due to a lot of players who can't play in new formations.

In short, I don't see too much success for us in a CL in the future, unless if Messi-Coutinho partnership reaches some God-level soon and neutralizes all of our problems.

RIZALDINHO · May 2, 2018

Champions League is one of the best club competition in football thats why most fans want their team to win the league and the cl not just league and the Champions League is a major trophy not a minor trophy.

FCBfan22 · May 2, 2018

BBZ8800 said:
Tbf, we have a lot of burden on our shoulders.
For example, Messi.
I love him and everything, but as long as he will be here, we can't play a true 433.
He doesn't want to play on wings, he wants a free role.
And as long as he is here, you have to build a game around him, which means that we have to play shortpassing game through the middle.
It is quite hard to have wingers, Benzema in the middle and Messi behind them and have a team that works.
He CAN play as a false 9, but then we'll be easily neutralized through the crowded middle, as always in a CL.
So, Messi as a false 9 is not an answer for a CL level.

So, it is quite hard to move forward in terms of tactics while Messi is here.
All we can do is to repeat the same old things over and over. And we are doing exactly that, with Coutinho, Griezmann, Arthur etc.
We will build a short team around Messi, we will win La Liga and Real will win 8 CLs in the next 10 years.

And then, when Messi will be gone, we will still have a team of short players, but now without Messi.
So, we will probably need 8-10 years until we will turn the page and try something new.

Or Busquets, for example.
You can't play 442 because of him. Or you can, but we suck.
You can't bench him, and when he plays, he works well only in 433.
And then, if you play him and play 433, then Messi has a free role and you only have 2 free spots in attack.
That means that you can't have 2 wingers and Benzema in attack.

You can't change a formation, you can't try something new, you can't buy a different CF, and also: you can't do anything regarding Messi, Busi and others.

I am not saying that we should sell Messi or something.
But I am saying that our options are quite limited.

This will sound harsh, but now, on a larger sample, when Messi lost so many NT finals and how Barca lost 6 times in a CL in the last 7 years, maybe we should whisper and ask: hmm, maybe these teams who build their team only around Messi and who are one dimensional, can't cope on the highest level anymore?
We need some different options, and yet, our hands are locked due to a lot of players who can't play in new formations.

In short, I don't see too much success for us in a CL in the future, unless if Messi-Coutinho partnership reaches some God-level soon and neutralizes all of our problems.

I think the best thing on a short term is to play 2 mobile wingers with Messi in a free role, who can understand how to change position according to Messi's play. We need 2 CM's that are technical, but also can't be pushed off the ball easily (Eriksen-type players) and have a leathal shot from distance. Also, Suarez+Messi not defending doesn't work anymore. We can get away with 1 player not defending (Messi), but not 2 (against Roma we parked the bus with 8 players, if that's not a recepie for disaster, I don't know what is).

Than, there is a question of a coach, who can analyse the opponent and pick the lineup accordingly. If they have strong CB's, you play Suarez with Paulinho in MF to bulldose them. If their LB is a liability, you play Dembele to exploit that. If their RB is a liability, you put Coutinho on the LW. Etc, etc. I haven't seen a none of that with Valverde yet, which is a strong warning. How can this coach win a CL, if he can't exploit opponent's weaknesses? He can't. In La Liga, you are rarely punished for that. In CL, you are almost always punished. I dunno, how can you be so stubborn that you can't even rotate 2 or 3 players in every Liga match and expect to compete on all fronts? It's stupid.

Lastly, I think if we solve our midfield situation before Messi leaves, we can at least compete after he goes. If we don't we are doomed. The transition from Messi era to post Messi era would be a lot easier if we have a functioning midfield then. Stop buying forwards after Griezmann and concentrate on midfield. How are we not even looking at world class MF, now that Iniesta is leaving is beyond me. Are we going to rely on Denis?

snowy · May 2, 2018

FCBfan22 said:
I think the best thing on a short term is to play 2 mobile wingers with Messi in a free role, who can understand how to change position according to Messi's play. ..

Totally! with class quick thinking wingers, able to adapt and switch positions, this would make us super dynamic and unpredictable upfront. A nightmare for any defense.

No need for our plays and positions to be static and cast in stone. Let's play some jazz n boogey some :guitar:

and yes, crucial to make preparations for post-messi henceforth :thumbsup:

if they wait till last min,. it's gonna be the most extreme free fall base jump ever!!!

henias · May 2, 2018

BarçaBarça said:
You would sack Valverde even if we won a treble? OK mate

Yes. Countless mismanagement and over-reliance on a few set of players makes him no better than Lucho. Add tactical ineptness to that.

Everything leading to the Roma game was already too predictable, many people already have strong sense of foreboding by his approach and rigidness in a certain set of tactics and players. People thought maybe we could win the treble because of Messi's superb form, but even at that stage, Messi couldnt save EV from his stupidity.

Same thing will happen again next year, and we might struggle to win the league.

You can just look at the trophies all u want and judge them sole on that, but it doesnt work that way. A short term "success" that leads to nothing in the end.

And this still doesnt change the fact that your comment is utter bullshit and vague.

BBZ8800 · May 2, 2018

snowy said:
Totally! with class quick thinking wingers, able to adapt and switch positions, this would make us super dynamic and unpredictable upfront. A nightmare for any defense.

Then CL teams will park 2 buses around the box like Atletico.
And Dembele and another quick winger become useless against a parked bus.
You can't play through balls, wingers are useless and you can't cross since no one in the middle can win an arial duel.

What will happen?
= as always, we will be forced to pass the ball around the box, do nothing and lose 0:2 to Atletico, conceding one goal after a counter and another after a corner kick.

Adding quick wingers solves nothing.
Our team is flawed on so many levels currently, for a CL level.

FCBfan22 · May 2, 2018

BBZ8800 said:
Then CL teams will park 2 buses around the box like Atletico.
And Dembele and another quick winger become useless against a parked bus.
You can't play through balls, wingers are useless and you can't cross since no one in the middle can win an arial duel.

What will happen?
= as always, we will be forced to pass the ball around the box, do nothing and lose 0:2 to Atletico, conceding one goal after a counter and another after a corner kick.

Adding quick wingers solves nothing.
Our team is flawed on so many levels currently, for a CL level.

That's why you have squad depth and different types of players. It's not all black an white. You pick the first 11 considering how your opponent plays. That's what Valverde hasn't done.

snowy · May 2, 2018

BBZ8800 said:
Then CL teams will park 2 buses around the box like Atletico.
And Dembele and another quick winger become useless against a parked bus.
You can't play through balls, wingers are useless and you can't cross since no one in the middle can win an arial duel.

What will happen?
= as always, we will be forced to pass the ball around the box, do nothing and lose 0:2 to Atletico, conceding one goal after a counter and another after a corner kick.

Adding quick wingers solves nothing.
Our team is flawed on so many levels currently, for a CL level.

good point and that's why we need to adapt with new signings. If they double park and make it look like a jammed Greyhound Station, we could:
1/ hitch a free ride with superior dribbling the ball inside the crammed space and take as many shots as we can. Results: penalties (fouls, handballs), own goal deflections, keeper's vision being blocked, etc…
2/ if near but outside the box, then we dribble and draw free kicks, or take long shots like Naingolan's beauty screamer at the 86th min.. If no score, then we'd still get plenty of corners.
3/ for headpieces and crosses, sign that dude! Patrick Schtick from Roma

he was really good 2nite!
https://www.transfermarkt.com/patrik-schick/profil/spieler/242086
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/243565/Show/Patrik-Schick
4/ Bring in one of our CBs forward to aid with the headers :pique1:

since they double park, the only threat is a counter but we'd still have our 3 mid + 3 defenders to intercept.
5/ This one will raise your hair but let's call their DP and raise the pot with a 343 : Messi as a 10 behind Benzema
6/ And finally, the Ace in the hole: assign a Bulgarian Olympic weightlifting coach to Leo and put our little bundle of joy through an intense vertical leap program, at the end of which he'd be able to skip higher than Kangaroo Ronaldo

You see, no problemo tio

Joan · May 3, 2018

snowy said:
good point and that's why we need to adapt with new signings. If they double park and make it look like a jammed Greyhound Station, we could:
1/ hitch a free ride with superior dribbling the ball inside the crammed space and take as many shots as we can. Results: penalties (fouls, handballs), own goal deflections, keeper's vision being blocked, etc…
2/ if near but outside the box, then we dribble and draw free kicks, or take long shots like Naingolan's beauty screamer at the 86th min.. If no score, then we'd still get plenty of corners.
3/ for headpieces and crosses, sign that dude! Patrick Schtick from Roma he was really good 2nite!
https://www.transfermarkt.com/patrik-schick/profil/spieler/242086
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/243565/Show/Patrik-Schick
4/ Bring in one of our CBs forward to aid with the headers since they double park, the only threat is a counter but we'd still have our 3 mid + 3 defenders to intercept.
5/ This one will raise your hair but let's call their DP and raise the pot with a 343 : Messi as a 10 behind Benzema
6/ And finally, the Ace in the hole: assign a Bulgarian Olympic weightlifting coach to Leo and put our little bundle of joy through an intense vertical leap program, at the end of which he'd be able to skip higher than Kangaroo Ronaldo

You see, no problemo tio

That's a nice plan and all. But it's Barca in a nutshell. And what happens then? We are knocked out.

Not everyone is nice like Pep or Lucho or Paco Jemez, there are tough guys out there like Mourinho, Simeone who'll kill you on counters.

Winning CL Barca way should count twice. It's such a huge achievement.

BBZ8800 · May 3, 2018

FCBfan22 said:
That's why you have squad depth and different types of players. It's not all black an white. You pick the first 11 considering how your opponent plays. That's what Valverde hasn't done.

Ok, you are a coach.
You have a current team and even add Griezmann.
You play against AM in a CL quarters.
They will play a physical match with lots of fouls, park 2 buses around their box and try to score on counters and set pieces.

How would you set a team?
No matter what you do, they will park the bus and we have a no plan B with a current set of players.
We will just pass around the box till death and do nothing and every ball will go to Messi who will be man-marked by 4 defenders.

soul24rage · May 3, 2018

I think the only solutions that I can think of against parked buses are headers and quick turnovers/transitions. Parked buses can't park the bus for 90 minutes; they would have to come out to attack at one point. Since we can't play with headers, quick turnovers/transitions are our best solution, which 14/15 Barca really excelled at. I hope that we buy a player like Mandzukic as a plan B

FCBfan22 · May 3, 2018

BBZ8800 said:
Ok, you are a coach.
You have a current team and even add Griezmann.
You play against AM in a CL quarters.
They will play a physical match with lots of fouls, park 2 buses around their box and try to score on counters and set pieces.

How would you set a team?
No matter what you do, they will park the bus and we have a no plan B with a current set of players.
We will just pass around the box till death and do nothing and every ball will go to Messi who will be man-marked by 4 defenders.

That's why I would want us to sign Eriksen before Griezmann. He is a great long distance shooter, has a higher workrate than Rakitić and is not a wimp physically. If you have 2 creators in the midfield, they cannot afford to only cover Messi, because he is not the only danger anymore. Having 2 long distance shooters in midfield is one of the ways how to break buses.

Luftstalag14 · May 3, 2018

BBZ8800 said:
Ok, you are a coach.
You have a current team and even add Griezmann.
You play against AM in a CL quarters.
They will play a physical match with lots of fouls, park 2 buses around their box and try to score on counters and set pieces.

How would you set a team?
No matter what you do, they will park the bus and we have a no plan B with a current set of players.
We will just pass around the box till death and do nothing and every ball will go to Messi who will be man-marked by 4 defenders.

We are truly too one-dimensional. BBZ, in the post-Messi era, are you proposing that we scrap the so-called "Barca way" (possession-heavy, short-pass driven, ground-hugging etc.) and go for things like crosses, headers, long range shots etc.? As Plan A or Plan B? Just wanted to hear your thoughts.

BarcaMessi · May 3, 2018

The traditional ground-hugging barca way is too 1 dimensional.

You can not win/dominate UCL without sufficient number of crosses/headers and long range shots.

Why are people so obsessed with the Champions League?

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