21 - Frenkie de Jong

DonAK said:

Well, here it begins.

Let's just start hating a player and tear him apart based on what some idiots on Twitter are saying.

Some of you lot just need an opportunity to call a player overrated despite him performing so well against good teams 9/10 times, and probably never having watched him for more than one game, but will find a million excuses to rationalize a shit attitude of a player like Rabiot and his continuous average performances and seemingly bad fit just because he plays regularly for PSG.

Well, so does Angel di Maria And guess what? He does very well. How many would want him at Barca?

People be complaining about the quality of the forum when every thread becomes a shit fest because of crap like this giving an opportunity for the obvious trolls doing their work.

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You know what's even more infuriating? Calling every semi-decent Rakitic performance as "amazing" but then other players are the ones being overrated. I kid you not, there was one comment after one of the games that Arthur dominated(against Madrid or Tottenham, can't really remember) and it was said that he was only decent, while the worse player was "amazing". You just shake your head in disbelief sometimes.

DonAK said:

Well, here it begins.

Let's just start hating a player and tear him apart based on what some idiots on Twitter are saying.

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Calling a player overrated is not necessarily hating. Not in the post you quoted, anyways. I don't see a problem there.

Sorin said:

You know what's even more infuriating? Calling every semi-decent Rakitic performance as "amazing" but then other players are the ones being overrated. I kid you not, there was one comment after one of the games that Arthur dominated(against Madrid or Tottenham, can't really remember) and it was said that he was only decent, while the worse player was "amazing". You just shake your head in disbelief sometimes.

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What's so infuriating about that comment? Somebody didn't agree with your assessments of Arthur's and Rakitić's performances, that's all. Looking at the MOTM table for the match against Real, many didn't.

Barcaman said:

Barca - Real MoM results:

Suarez 77
Alba 37
Roberto 24
Rakitic 22
Arthur 5
Dembele 2
Busquets 1

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Arthur collected 5 in total, Rakitić 22. And it truly was an awesome game by Ivan.

Definitely overhyped at the moment.

Joan Laporta said:

Calling a player overrated is not necessarily hating. Not in the post you quoted, anyways. I don't see a problem there.


What's so infuriating about that comment? Somebody didn't agree with your assessments of Arthur's and Rakitić's performances, that's all. Looking at the MOTM table for the match against Real, many didn't.


Arthur collected 5 in total, Rakitić 22. And it truly was an awesome game by Ivan.

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My apologies, it was after the Inter 2-0 game and not the RM or Tottehnam ones. Still, Rakitic was good but so far from fecking "amazing" the two terms are not even in the same area code. Then Arthur against RM which was a better performance than Rakitic against Inter was only "solid" going by your playing meter. Do you see the double standards here? Some interesting takes on Roberto's performances compared with others as well, but I digress.

Anyway, I overreacted and I apologize for that. Let's leave it at agree to disagree with what players are overrated and who aren't

Sorin said:

My apologies, it was after the Inter 2-0 game and not the RM or Tottehnam ones. Still, Rakitic was good but so far from fecking "amazing" the two terms are not even in the same area code. Then Arthur against RM which was a better performance than Rakitic against Inter was only "solid" going by your playing meter. Do you see the double standards here? Some interesting takes on Roberto's performances compared with others as well, but I digress.

Anyway, I overreacted and I apologize for that. Let's leave it at agree to disagree with what players are overrated and who aren't

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To be frank, before this post I wasn't even sure if you were talking about me. My problem here is that there's no way to definitely determine who did better. People's views can differ. You present Arthur being better against Real than Ivan against Inter for a fact. It's not. So no double standards there, we're talking interpretations after all. No need to apologize as I didn't take it personally. Just sayin', I see nothing infuriating there. A propos Roberto, possibly have a point there.

Joan Laporta said:

To be frank, before this post I wasn't even sure if you were talking about me. My problem here is that there's no way to definitely determine who did better. People's views can differ. You present Arthur being better against Real than Ivan against Inter for a fact. It's not. So no double standards there, we're talking interpretations after all. No need to apologize as I didn't take it personally. Just sayin', I see nothing infuriating there. A propos Roberto, possibly have a point there.

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Apologies were in order, because I didn't respect other's(yours) opinion. I still don't agree with it but it's more than fair so my overreaction was unnecessary.

Messi983 said:

Definitely overhyped at the moment.

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Welcome back

khaled_a_d said:

Welcome back

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+1

khaled_a_d said:

Welcome back

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Tnx.

I was reading but not having much time to post over the last two months.

I see in other threads comments like xx player sucks, we need De Jong-Arthur midfield, lol.

So, for a start, on Red Cafe and City's forum, people see De Jong as a defensive midfielder (a new Busquets or Fernardinho).
Yet, here on our forum, people see him as a classic central midfielder.
That is imo a problem no1.

The 2nd thing, I have already wrote, since Rijkaard, so, that is since 2003', we used to play with:
1. central midfielder who is more attacking minded and a creator
2. a classic central midfielder
3. a defensive midfielder

During Rijkaard:
Attacking midfielder/a creator: was Deco
A classic central midfielder: was Xavi
A defensive midfielder: was Edmilson, Motta, Marquez

During Pep:
Attacking midfielder: was Iniesta
A classic central midfielder: was Xavi
A defensive midfielder: was Busquets

In 2003/04 season when Rijkaard came, I remember one interview and he said: Ronaldinho is our brain and a creator.
But the opponents have figured this out and he is often man marked by 2-3 players and then we have no one to create and we suffer.
This is why I have decided to buy ANOTHER creator who will play on an opposite side of a pitch (on a right side).
So, if Ronaldinho will be man marked by 2-3 players (on a left side), then our other creator (Deco) will have a free space on a right side and he will be able to do whatever he wants.
Yet, if the opponents will man mark BOTH Ronaldinho and Deco with 2 players, then Etoo will be free in the center.

Anyway, since then we are playing 433 with 2 creators (Ronaldinho and Deco). Rijkaard didn't even consider Xavi as a creator in that attacking sense...

So, now let's go back to these crazy ideas with De Jong-Arthur midfield.
Do you guys see a problem?
= they are too similar.

Busquets=is Busquets, a pivot
Arthur is more a mixture of Busquets and Xavi than a true Xavi (since he is lacking in creation and he is dropping too deep to get the ball).
And De Jong is AGAIN more like a mixture of Koeman, Busquets and Xavi who is dropping deep to get the ball.
So, basically, in Busi-De Jong-Arthur, we would have 3 too similar players who are all more suited for playing a pivot or a double pivot.
Not to mention that NONE of them is a creator in Rijkaard's sense (like Ronaldinho and Deco, or later Iniesta).
So, even though De Jong and Arthur have some shiny moves and passes, that duo combined would probably be insanely sterile in attacking sense for Barca's level.

So, if you want De Jong, you will need to look at other options:
1. De Jong as a pivot, Arthur as a CM, and a new guy as a 3rd guy, someone like Coutinho, Alena, Rafinha and similar.
2. Arthur as a pivot, De Jong as a CM, a 3rd creator on a field.
3. Busi as a pivot, only one out of De Jong/Arthur on a field, plus a 3rd guy, a creator.

So, we solved 2 problems:
1. De Jong is a CM only on Barca's forum
2. De Jong and Arthur will have problems playing together as 2 Cms.
The 3rd problem is: let's call it defending&muscles&physical presence.

I have said before, the only moment EVER in a history when we were able to win without muscles was during Pep.
Since we will never have prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves, let's forget that option.
In other years, like 2006 or 2015, our midfield had 1 or 2 stronger players (2006: Edmilson, Van Bommel and even Motta) (2015: Rakitic).
Now, let's go back to Busi-De Jong-Arthur, lol, wtf is that?
De Jong is tall, but skinny and light as fuck. Not much stronger than Denis/Coutinho.
Arthur has muscles but he is short and not too fast.
All in all, we don't have any player in a mold of Van Bommel, Edmilson, Motta, Rakitic or Real's CL winning factor: Casemiro.
De Jong-Arthur is an equivalent to Modric-Isco-Kroos midfield. And that midfield lacked something, right? Some muscles, physical presence, some thuggish behavior, right?

And voila, here is the answer WHY our board is also looking at Rabiot.
Because he is a different profile than what we currently have.
If we want to look at a future, let's see what type of midfielders we will have:
1. De Jong: technical, tall, but physically soft and weak
2. Arthur: technical, not too tall, not exactly AS physical as Casemiro and similar players
3. Coutinho: technical, slow, short, very light
4. Alena: technical, light
5. Puig: technical, extremely short. Not a new Casemiro either

So, do you guys see ANY players here of Rakitic's or Casemiro's physical type here?
All of our future midfielders are more of the same: light, technical and majority are very short.

So, for the future, we will need De Jong and 2 more players:
1. De Jong
2. at least one physical midfielder
3. and one true creator, an attacking midfielder

All in all, about De Jong, I wouldn't be surprised that the board sees him as a long term Busi's replacement (the same as fans from other forums).
If that is true, then our future would make more sense with:
De Jong: a pivot/central midfielder
Arthur: a controller
3rd guy: a creator, an attacking midfielder
Rabiot: a sub BOTH for De Jong's pivot position, and an option/rotation with Arthur for a CM with muscles (Rakitic's type), when needed

Anyway, this story is imo way more complicated than: we will play De Jong-Arthur (we probably won't).
And why do we need Rabiot?

BBZ8800 said:

I see in other threads comments like xx player sucks, we need De Jong-Arthur midfield, lol.

So, for a start, on Red Cafe and City's forum, people see De Jong as a defensive midfielder (a new Busquets or Fernardinho).
Yet, here on our forum, people see him as a classic central midfielder.
That is imo a problem no1.

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He is so versatile that he can play 4 positions (CM, CDM, AM, CB), but what we need most and I think his biggest merit is to play deep like Busquets. Also many here think he is Busquets hire including me, so Barcaform and Red Cafe agree on the same thing.

Yep, Busquets should be phased out for one of Arthur or De Jong. Think it's fair to experiment both in DM role and see who is better at CM. Them being somewhat similar, having the same strengths isn't a bad thing at all.

George_Costanza said:

He is so versatile that he can play 4 positions (CM, CDM, AM, CB), but what we need most and I think his biggest merit is to play deep like Busquets. Also many here think he is Busquets hire including me, so Barcaform and Red Cafe agree on the same thing.

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Roberto is also versatile.
He can play as a Rb, Rm, Rw, Cdm, Cm, but he is average on majority of those positions.
De Jong is versatile.
From what I have seen, he can't be a world class Cb since he is physically light.
And he can't be Barca's CAM since he doesn't have an attacking killer instinct like Iniesta/Deco.

So, what is left for Barca:
De Jong as a new Busi.
or De Jong as some sort of a Xavi (which we already have in Arthur).

If you see him as a new Busi, fine, you are right then, imo.
I had an impression that majority here see him as a Cm in a future (Oriol)-De Jong-Arthur trio.

On the other hand, this will crush some fan's dreams, and I can already see some questions:
But if De Jong will be a pivot, what we will do with Oriol, we will ruin his career...

I don't understand that too. Never seen him playing classical CM. He likes to drift and roam sometimes appearing close to opponent's box, but eventually always comes back to his deep playmaker position and also babysits a lot, which you should like.

We need a creative midfielder? Doesn't Rabiot want to play as an 8?