21 - Frenkie de Jong

Givenchy said:

it'll all come down to his ambitions as a footballer. join the club you were born to play for, huge fan also and win la ligas, CLs playing with style (once we get rid of you know who) or join a state backed club big fish in a little pond for $$$. I've seen fans of other clubs even say 'i rather he join Barca or City, atleast we'll get to see his talent'

I hope Barca are in talks with him and Rabiot is just a smokescreen, a big ugly smokescreen but nothing would suprise me

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I agree with you that’s the type of pitch we are offering him. I don’t want to use the word ‘sell’ him because we don’t need to sell him anything. This is the club and style he loves and it suits him best. I just want us to not screw up the approach and he ends up in another club that hurts his development. That’s a lose lose situation.

If we do it right and He still chooses the likes of psg then best of luck to him.

But if he goes to City since I suspect it’s probably his 2nd choice, I worry it will be because we screwed up somehow.

catalinutzR80 said:

i didn't read your post but judging by that vid and stats I asume that you think we won't stand a chance with small technical midfielders but with tall players we will , based on that 3-0 win in 2000 ?

Lmao , your ideal barca didn't win shit with tall players . From 1999/ 2000 season till 2003/2004 barca finished 2nd - 4th - 4th -6th -2nd in la liga. Thanks for the offer but i'll rather have 170 -175 cm midfielders who know how to play than 185 cm players who are slow as fuck like Rabiot and others.

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Barca had tall players both under Van Gaal and Rijkaard.
The only difference with Pep's era is that we had Messi.
Van Gaal won 2 La Ligas in 3 years here.
Rijkaard won 2 La Ligas in 5 years here.
Van Gaal had Messi for 0 seasons.
Rijkaard had Messi for 2 and a half seasons.
Pep and coaches after that had prime Messi in every single game.

Add Messi to Van Gaal's team with Rivaldo, Kluivert, Figo, Cocu, Lucho, Pep and you have a CL, without any problems.
Add prime Messi earlier to Rijkaard's team and we would have 2-3 CLs in 2005, 2006, 2007, EVEN WITH Van Bommel, Motta, Edmilson as our midfielders.
Quite likely back to back CL titles, because Rijkaard had a better defense than Pep (and a team had more character and mental strength), and yet, he would have prime Ronaldinho-Etoo-Messi attack, which is better than any other combination.

So, yeah, let's compare a current era with cheating codes named Messi and assume that the system from the last 10 years is actually a winning system due itself and not due to a cheating codes.
Messi would be winning titles with Rakitic-Paulinho-Gomes midfield.
And prime Messi would do something even out of Gaspart's team, out of Saviola and Fabio Rochemback.

So, let's do it one more time:
Does any of you have any proves or indications that a short-light team actually works when you remove Messi?
And even, if it worked in a short-blitzkrieg era when the opponents were shocked for a few years (2008-2012), it definitely stopped worked after that.

And one more time, my idea is not to buy tall players who suck.
My idea is:
If you have 10 midfielders with good technique and height 172cm and 10 midfielders with 180cm and equal technique:
Then take 180cm tall guys, or at least: add some taller and some 170cm guys.
Don't do it Barca's current way.

** How is Real's might midfield/team doing without their cheating codes named CR7?
Not to well, right?

So the whole arguement about the difference between a small technical midfield or a bigger more physical midfield actually boils down to a 5 foot 7 manlet in attack.

...what!?!

Porque said:

So the whole arguement about the difference between a small technical midfield or a bigger more physical midfield actually boils down to a 5 foot 7 manlet in attack.

...what!?!

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At least he's putting effort and a certain logic into his post. You point out one single aspect of it, twist it, then act as if there is a fundamental misrepresentation of football knowledge in his post. What he's saying makes perfect sense. We had an incredible midfield of Iniesta and Xavi....Busquets fit the bill as DM along side them as well. Busquets has been a shadow of the player he was with them since they aged and/or left. The single factor that has not changed, both in Xavi/Iniesta prime Barca and present Barca....is that when Messi has a bad game or is off form....Barca struggles. That is a fact. We buy players, some incredible players, and force them into roles that do not suit them and rely on their brilliance to pull us through games. When they get negated, and sometimes easily, due to not being played at their strengths....we rely on Messi's brilliance. When he does not provide, we look like a second rate team.

That is his point. And he is correct.

Those teams of the past were more balanced. Did they have as much success? No, of course not. They also didn't have arguably the best player of all time. Do you think a team with Eto (our most underrated player of all time) and Ronaldinho with Messi in his prime....alongside a balanced midfield, wouldn't absolutely destroy all? It's not crazy, it's perfectly reasonable.

Co0ter said:

At least he's putting effort and a certain logic into his post. You point out one single aspect of it, twist it, then act as if there is a fundamental misrepresentation of football knowledge in his post. What he's saying makes perfect sense. We had an incredible midfield of Iniesta and Xavi....Busquets fit the bill as DM along side them as well. Busquets has been a shadow of the player he was with them since they aged and/or left. The single factor that has not changed, both in Xavi/Iniesta prime Barca and present Barca....is that when Messi has a bad game or is off form....Barca struggles. That is a fact. We buy players, some incredible players, and force them into roles that do not suit them and rely on their brilliance to pull us through games. When they get negated, and sometimes easily, due to not being played at their strengths....we rely on Messi's brilliance. When he does not provide, we look like a second rate team.

That is his point. And he is correct.

Those teams of the past were more balanced. Did they have as much success? No, of course not. They also didn't have arguably the best player of all time. Do you think a team with Eto (our most underrated player of all time) and Ronaldinho with Messi in his prime....alongside a balanced midfield, wouldn't absolutely destroy all? It's not crazy, it's perfectly reasonable.

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No. Whoever you are, the argument is tosh and like most of his posts puts square pegs in round holes with statistical fallacies and revisionist history. I am not going to go through every line and pick apart the crap because there is too much and I want to watch some of this evenings games. So here is a few of them.

Add Messi to Van Gaal's team with Rivaldo, Kluivert, Figo, Cocu, Lucho, Pep and you have a CL, without any problems.

This team had an attack of Rivaldo and Figo who are top 5 attackers in that era, the issue wasn't it's attac. Why not add Iniesta-Xavi in their prime and have a better midfield? Or improve the two problems that Van Gaals Barcelona had that Messi can't improve. The 343 tactics with 3 poor centre backs and gung-ho attacking that left us constantly short in defence.

He then picks out a highlight of the game in April 2000 where Barcelona won 3-0 with "tall" players noting that Valencia reached the CL final. In May 2000 that same Valencia team beat Barcelona 4-1 in the Semi Final of the CL on route to that said final. The problems clearly were not the attack.

Quite likely back to back CL titles, because Rijkaard had a better defense than Pep (and a team had more character and mental strength)

Again, the problem with Rijkaard's team WAS the defence. The fullbacks were friggin Gio Van Bronkhorst and Belletti. They were the weak links along with the defensive midfield who was either Edmilson, Marquez or even Gerard Lopez. Terrible options compared to Busquets as they could not filter possession quickly.

Messi would be winning titles with Rakitic-Paulinho-Gomes midfield

Winning what? Champions Leagues? Because he didn't. The whole notion previously was putting Messi into teams wins Champions League, yet this combination didn't right.

Does any of you have any proves or indications that a short-light team actually works when you remove Messi?
And even, if it worked in a short-blitzkrieg era when the opponents were shocked for a few years (2008-2012), it definitely stopped worked after that.

This is the best one. Quote a time when short midfielders win trophies without Messi. Yet if you quote the obvious one in Spain then you have the disclaimer that if can't be the era when Spain dominated. Then if you quote Man City of Pep Guardiola last season then the comment will probably be that they didn't win the Champions League.

Then if you quote the Chile team of 2 Copa Americas it will be that they didn't win the World Cup.


When actually it is not about the height or putting Messi into different eras (which is so stupid to even suggest because then we can move around C. Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Puskas and etc in eras of different tactics, training and nutrition) but about the team, the individuals in the system and their abilities at that point of time. Peps "lightweight" team worked because they were also at their physical peak that these "lightweight" players like Iniesta and Xavi could close down the space defensively within 3 seconds. As they grew older there physical output declined as did motivation after winning literally everything in club and international football.

Our short technical team has been much more successful than any tall physical versions we’ve had before............

Porque said:

No. Whoever you are, the argument is tosh and like most of his posts puts square pegs in round holes with statistical fallacies and revisionist history. I am not going to go through every line and pick apart the crap because there is too much and I want to watch some of this evenings games. So here is a few of them.

Add Messi to Van Gaal's team with Rivaldo, Kluivert, Figo, Cocu, Lucho, Pep and you have a CL, without any problems.

This team had an attack of Rivaldo and Figo who are top 5 attackers in that era, the issue wasn't it's attac. Why not add Iniesta-Xavi in their prime and have a better midfield? Or improve the two problems that Van Gaals Barcelona had that Messi can't improve. The 343 tactics with 3 poor centre backs and gung-ho attacking that left us constantly short in defence.

He then picks out a highlight of the game in April 2000 where Barcelona won 3-0 with "tall" players noting that Valencia reached the CL final. In May 2000 that same Valencia team beat Barcelona 4-1 in the Semi Final of the CL on route to that said final. The problems clearly were not the attack.

Quite likely back to back CL titles, because Rijkaard had a better defense than Pep (and a team had more character and mental strength)

Again, the problem with Rijkaard's team WAS the defence. The fullbacks were friggin Gio Van Bronkhorst and Belletti. They were the weak links along with the defensive midfield who was either Edmilson, Marquez or even Gerard Lopez. Terrible options compared to Busquets as they could not filter possession quickly.

Messi would be winning titles with Rakitic-Paulinho-Gomes midfield

Winning what? Champions Leagues? Because he didn't. The whole notion previously was putting Messi into teams wins Champions League, yet this combination didn't right.

Does any of you have any proves or indications that a short-light team actually works when you remove Messi?
And even, if it worked in a short-blitzkrieg era when the opponents were shocked for a few years (2008-2012), it definitely stopped worked after that.

This is the best one. Quote a time when short midfielders win trophies without Messi. Yet if you quote the obvious one in Spain then you have the disclaimer that if can't be the era when Spain dominated. Then if you quote Man City of Pep Guardiola last season then the comment will probably be that they didn't win the Champions League.

Then if you quote the Chile team of 2 Copa Americas it will be that they didn't win the World Cup.


When actually it is not about the height or putting Messi into different eras (which is so stupid to even suggest because then we can move around C. Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Puskas and etc in eras of different tactics, training and nutrition) but about the team, the individuals in the system and their abilities at that point of time. Peps "lightweight" team worked because they were also at their physical peak that these "lightweight" players like Iniesta and Xavi could close down the space defensively within 3 seconds. As they grew older there physical output declined as did motivation after winning literally everything in club and international football.

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Great post. Did he really just say Messi would be winning CL's with Raki-Paulinho-Gomes??? Did the 17/18 season cease to exist? That is a Hall of shame worthy comment on its own.

BBZ's essay contained multiple, laughable non-truths that, if isolated by quotes, are brain-cell killing comments. Yet because he dilutes it with a 1000 word salad dissertation people don't read it and assume he's preaching facts.

This tall players obsession is becoming irritating. BBZ you really need to stop with this, it's just absurd. The only true fact is that you need to have balance in your team but having 7 or 8 phisically strong players won't be a guarantee for any title. Height is just one factor in football and I would say not a very decisive one unless you are a CB, but even in that position there were players who overcome that problem (e.g. Puyol).

tbf after that 7-0 agg mauling from Bayern where our weak players were just brushed off like flies i was also thinking we needed some strong destroyer types, or atleast 1 in midfield. the DM position Busi has played worked so well with Xaviesta, its probably the best midfield 3 in history but when you remove one, the other 2 aren't as effective and now we have an aging, slow Busi without those two and hes been exposed alot. hes slow, tall yet cant header, hes not strong, he doesn't have any long range shooting to pop up with a goal once in a while either and he doesn't control the tempo so what exactly does he do? imo you could put an obviously less talented Kante in his position and it would transform our slow midfield.. he might misplace a few passes but the fucker is a duracell bunny, he never stops running and thats what we miss

maybe Coutinho could play that midfield role if we had a hard man at DM.. sorry BBZ but Rabiot is NOT that man

Givenchy said:

tbf after that 7-0 agg mauling from Bayern where our weak players were just brushed off like flies i was also thinking we needed some strong destroyer types, or atleast 1 in midfield. the DM position Busi has played worked so well with Xaviesta, its probably the best midfield 3 in history but when you remove one, the other 2 aren't as effective and now we have an aging, slow Busi without those two and hes been exposed alot. hes slow, tall yet cant header, hes not strong, he doesn't have any long range shooting to pop up with a goal once in a while either and he doesn't control the tempo so what exactly does he do? imo you could put an obviously less talented Kante in his position and it would transform our slow midfield.. he might misplace a few passes but the fucker is a duracell bunny, he never stops running and thats what we miss

maybe Coutinho could play that midfield role if we had a hard man at DM.. sorry BBZ but Rabiot is NOT that man

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Exactly my thoughts. Busi had his role and moment but I think we are past it.

Givenchy said:

tbf after that 7-0 agg mauling from Bayern where our weak players were just brushed off like flies i was also thinking we needed some strong destroyer types, or atleast 1 in midfield. the DM position Busi has played worked so well with Xaviesta, its probably the best midfield 3 in history but when you remove one, the other 2 aren't as effective and now we have an aging, slow Busi without those two and hes been exposed alot. hes slow, tall yet cant header, hes not strong, he doesn't have any long range shooting to pop up with a goal once in a while either and he doesn't control the tempo so what exactly does he do? imo you could put an obviously less talented Kante in his position and it would transform our slow midfield.. he might misplace a few passes but the fucker is a duracell bunny, he never stops running and thats what we miss

maybe Coutinho could play that midfield role if we had a hard man at DM.. sorry BBZ but Rabiot is NOT that man

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Rabiot is definitely not that man because he is not the player who will sacrifice for the rest of the team. On the other hand your description of Busquets is the perfect explanation why Rakitic is playing every single game.

Let me start by saying this
1-There is a need to differentiate between physique & height, physique is about height,strength,quickness and stamina. Kante is short but is physically dominant player IMO. This is something that BBZ generally tend to make it the same thing
2-I don't agree with BBZ but I think balance is of huge importance, didn't read his previous posts but he previously said what he wants is balance, not 3 short players (which never happened in any recent Barca era btw. Busquets was strong tall player and Yaya was same), I won't like a future midfield of FDJ/Puig/Arthur for example, unless they all turn all-time great I don't see that midfield working great.

Porque said:

This is the best one. Quote a time when short midfielders win trophies without Messi. Yet if you quote the obvious one in Spain then you have the disclaimer that if can't be the era when Spain dominated.

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Spain in Euro 2008 starting line up (outfield players)
Puyol: average height for CB, but physically a beast.
Carlos Marchena: CB who also didn't lack height or physique
Capdevila: Tall CB, physically strong player
Senna: Average height for midfielder, but physical beast (Spain loved their nationalized player)
Torres: tall & athletic striker
Cesc/Villa: average Physique & height (slightly above average in Cesc case)
Xavi/Iniesta/Silva: below average Physique (light weight) midfielders.

Spain in WC 2010 starting line up: Puyol/Pique/Ramos/Capdevila
Alonso/Busquets (all mentioned till now are physically strong/tall players) Xavi,Iniesta with players like Villa/Pedro/Torres rotating.


Spain Euro 2012 line up:
Pique (a tower) , Ramos (athletic strong player) , Arbeloa (very tall for RB) and Alba (short, but strong and very athletic/quick), midfield trio of Busquets,Alonso & Xavi, attack of Iniesta/Silva with torres/Negredo/Cesc playing the striker position.

Spain had 3 all timers in Silva/Iniesta/Xavi, but overall the team wasn't weak, and the midfield was either supported by 2 physically dominant DM or one pure Spoiler like Senna
So while Spain had succeeded with those players, they didn't succeed purely with short players and paid close attention to the need of physique in the team


Another food for thought:
Pep signings in his 1st 3 successful years:
2008: Pique (1.94 m) Caceres (1.78 m) Alves (1.71 m) Keita(1.83 m) Hleb(1.85 m )
2009: Ibra(1.95 m) Maxwell (1.76 m ) Chygrynskiy (1.89 m)
2010/11: Afellay(1.80 m ) Adriano(1.73 m ) Mascherano(1.74 m) Villa (1.75 m)
12 players, only 3 shorter than 1.75m with 2 of them being full backs. All 3 were strong and very athletic players
2 players above 1.9m,with another 4 being 1.8 or above
if you want to add players from his last year : Cesc ( 1.80 m) Alexis Sánchez ( 1.68 m)

Players promoted: Busquets (1.89 m) Pedro(1.69 m) Thiago(1.74 m) Tello(1.78 m) Cuenca(1.79 m) Jeffren (1.77 m)
Pep really didn't favored shorter players when you look to the players he brought, in fact he was more favoring height or athletic abilities, he surely admired the game of Xavi & Iniesta and got them to play his peffect game, but he also didn't ignore the need of height or "muscles" in the team.

Porque said:

When actually it is not about the height or putting Messi into different eras (which is so stupid to even suggest because then we can move around C. Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Puskas and etc in eras of different tactics, training and nutrition) but about the team, the individuals in the system and their abilities at that point of time.

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And this is the most important part of your post, there is a need of a system, sporting project and individual with their "abilities "
All this is true, and while you need to not ignore a talent because he is short etc, there is a need for balance, there is a need to remember that football is sport and like any other sports your physique matters.
BBZ posts are in many cases are exaggerated, no doubt; but he is also triggered by some fans who actually tend to go to the other extreme with their wishes

Pace is 10x more important than height these days

khaled_a_d said:

but he is also triggered by some fans who actually tend to go to the other extreme with their wishes

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Who represents this other extreme? Can you quote or mention anyone, who has said, that we need ONLY midgets? The most recent BBZ shitshow is about Rabiot vs De Jong, where he claims that Rabiot is great physical warrior, while de Jong is "choir boy" in comparison, which is bullshit. Everyone also seem to like Vidal despite him being the physical. Rakitic gets a flak because he's donkey, not because he's physical. What else? Don't remember anyone saying that we should play with Arthir, Coutinho, Puig or smth.

didn't the almighty physical beast rabiot play in the 1-6 loss?