21 - Frenkie de Jong

serghei said:

Before that red card we had a legit goal disallowed in England, and a clear pen denied on Camp Nou. With good refereeing tie would've probably been over since the first leg.

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Exactly. We were more unlucky then lucky in last 10 years, 2008/09 everybody talks about ovrebo but nobody talks about that first game at nou camp when tie, if refereeing was solid would be over. Next year semifinal return leg dissalowed goal against inter was something i dont understand even now, and that would be three cl in a row(that bayern side 2010 was a joke compared to heyneckess bayern).

Kul_z said:

Exactly. We were more unlucky then lucky in last 10 years, 2008/09 everybody talks about ovrebo but nobody talks about that first game at nou camp when tie, if refereeing was solid would be over. Next year semifinal return leg dissalowed goal against inter was something i dont understand even now, and that would be three cl in a row(that bayern side 2010 was a joke compared to heyneckess bayern).

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that would have been 3 consecutive CLs and history written. instead, real/zidane got lucky and claim they are the best ever.
that's the problem with the current UCL format, big teams have to be in form(also luck with injuries and referees) for 2-3 games in february/march/april and you can reach the final. that's why I think the move to a european super league is inevitable.

Kul_z said:

Exactly. We were more unlucky then lucky in last 10 years, 2008/09 everybody talks about ovrebo but nobody talks about that first game at nou camp when tie, if refereeing was solid would be over. Next year semifinal return leg dissalowed goal against inter was something i dont understand even now, and that would be three cl in a row(that bayern side 2010 was a joke compared to heyneckess bayern).

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Lol.
Bias is strong in you.

2009, we had like 5 penalties against Chelsea in our favor.
2010, against Inter, what about Motta's red card? Imagine if such a red card happened against RM?
2011, Van Persie red

Watch this red card without Barca's glasses, a total joke, a ruined game:

George_Costanza said:

I like this tweet:
In his debut with Catalunya Riqui Puig (19 years, 1,69m of height, 59kg of weight) shows that the most important muscle for football is the brain.

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Remind me to reply to this guy once when this will happen in our next CL exit, like always:
Try to use your brain-muscle in a situation like this.
It won't help, without REAL muscles and some height:

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], you think we could of avoided that Manolas goal if Yerry Mina was playing?

To be honest, the height of that cross is PERFECT for Puig to head clear.

BBZ8800 said:

Lol.
Bias is strong in you.

2009, we had like 5 penalties against Chelsea in our favor.
2010, against Inter, what about Motta's red card? Imagine if such a red card happened against RM?
2011, Van Persie red

Watch this red card without Barca's glasses, a total joke, a ruined game:

Remind me to reply to this guy once when this will happen in our next CL exit, like always:
Try to use your brain-muscle in a situation like this.
It won't help, without REAL muscles and some height:

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Ok, barca glasses. What about milito offside goal in the first leg? Or that doesnt count in your book as a referee mistake? For chelsea game, as i said, everybody talks about that second game, but in the first game we were robbed for clear red and a penalty on yaya toure. Tie would be over. Van persie red was ridiculous, but he is only to blame after he kicked that ball in the stands after the referee whistle. Like i said, you're pointing only on things to justify your agenda. We were robbed so many times after the ovrebo incident but people only have to say that its deserved because of that thing. We overpaid our dues and are still paying it. Dont mention rm, they had referees help too damn much in last 5 years, you can write a good bestseller poema about that.

Porque said:

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], you think we could of avoided that Manolas goal if Yerry Mina was playing?

To be honest, the height of that cross is PERFECT for Puig to head clear.

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Well, Roma had 7-8 players with height 185-195.
We had Pique and Busquets iirc and Busquets jumps like a granny.
So, one player wouldn't help.

That doesn't mean that we should play with 190cm tall players because then we won't have technique and off the ball movement.
So, you can't have everything.

But the point is that the opponents and their coaches and staff are not dumb.
If a team has tall and slow CBs, you will try to overrun them with pacey wingers.
If a team has short CBs, you will try to outsmart them with crosses and corners.
If a team is weak in midfield, you will try to keep the ball and kill them that way.
If a team is too good in midfield, you will try to foul them, don't let them play too much and kill them on counters.

But as I have said a lot of times, in La Liga, majority of teams are similar to Barca, but weaker: Latino-technical based teams, usually with shorter and technical midfielders and attackers from Spain and South America.
In that sense, when Barca needs to defend in La Liga, we need to defend usually on the ground and against pacey, technical, shorter wingers, attackers and attacking midfielders like Coutinho, Isco, Griezmann and similar.
Our team is built for those circumstances and against those type of opponents.
These teams don't cross THAT much and are not THAT dangerous in the air or after corners.

But then, when we come to a CL and meet teams like Bayern, Roma, Juventus or English teams, those teams have a way higher average height than us and La Liga.
And those teams usually play both possession and crossing type of football, unlike us and La Liga teams.
And then, since those teams and their coaches are not dumb, they ALL KNOW that the easiest way to neutralize Barca is:
1. play dirty and physical against their midfielders and don't let them play their game
2. try to play counters against their high line and whenever their team is your half of a field
3. try to cross as much as possible due to their short defenders (or tall players like Busi who are a shit in the air)
4. try to get as many corners as possible and then cross into a box (and DON'T play short corners) since Barca's team is one of the shortest among top teams in Europe and you have the highest chance to score against them after corners and crosses

In that sense, the only Barca's options in CL knockout matches are:
1. Play with 11 Puigs and DON'T lose the ball, and don't allow any counters and corners
2. or play a mixture of Barca's shorter players and some taller/stronger players to stop corners, crosses and counters from European teams who are ALL always playing in exactly the same way against us, and that is NEVER through a possession game, but through counters, crosses and set pieces

Now, after all that, one more time, now watch a highlights video from a match Roma:Barcelona from last season.
And check how Roma is trying to:
1. play counters
2. play crosses into our box
3. play corners with crosses into our box
= WHENEVER posssible
They don't bother too much with trying to break us through the middle like majority of La Liga teams.
These European teams don't play Spanish-Brasilian type of football with technique, possession, playing through the middle and playing mostly on the ground.
This is why, imo, for us to win a CL ever again, we will need a slightly different approach than for LA Liga matches, because European teams play, defend and attack in different patterns than La Liga teams.

Now, watch a video and check how Roma is crossing into our box WHENEVER possible. They are not dumb. They know why are they doing it. Because a lack of height in our defense is their biggest chance for a win:

Kul_z said:

Ok, barca glasses. What about milito offside goal in the first leg? Or that doesnt count in your book as a referee mistake? For chelsea game, as i said, everybody talks about that second game, but in the first game we were robbed for clear red and a penalty on yaya toure. Tie would be over. Van persie red was ridiculous, but he is only to blame after he kicked that ball in the stands after the referee whistle. Like i said, you're pointing only on things to justify your agenda. We were robbed so many times after the ovrebo incident but people only have to say that its deserved because of that thing. We overpaid our dues and are still paying it. Dont mention rm, they had referees help too damn much in last 5 years, you can write a good bestseller poema about that.

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Imo:
1. we wouldn't have won a CL in 2009 with a good refereeing
2. in 2010, we would maybe win against Inter, but we would still have to play a final against Bayern. So, this is still a 50:50 chance for a trophy.
3. 2011, Arsenal, who knows what would have happened
4. 2012, we wouldn't win either way

So, in a real world, we have 2 trophies in Pep's 4 years.
And we shouldn't have won in 2009, and then, maybe Pep would leave, maybe we would never get mental strength, maybe Pep would try to play differently.
So, we have 2 CLs this way.
And with fair referees, we would have maybe 2010 and maybe 2011. Or maybe NONE, who knows?
But we wouldn't have more than 2 CLs in any way.

So, we would have 0, 1 or 2 CLs.

But I hate these childish:
Real won with luck.
Real had a lucky draw.
Their opponents were scared.
Portugal was lucky.
Barca was unlucky.
Refs were against us.
Messi is always unlucky with his team.

The truth is somewhere in the middle:
Barca had a great team and shit ton of luck and referee's help.
Remember that we lost against Chelsea 2009, team of thugs. Inter 2010, another team of thugs and we couldn't win. Chelsea 2012 again.
So, we were winning due to a good team, help from refs and only when we were lucky in a draw not to face a thug team since Pep never had an answer for those teams.

Real, the same story: a good team, some luck, some help from referees.

But a story how:
1. we were so good and winning trophies only due to our insane quality
2. while RM are winning mostly due to luck and a lucky draw
= imo, is on a level of 12 years kids

Haha, dzeko looked like drogba in this match, and dzeko is just a solid forward these days

BBZ8800 said:

Imo:
1. we wouldn't have won a CL in 2009 with a good refereeing
2. in 2010, we would maybe win against Inter, but we would still have to play a final against Bayern. So, this is still a 50:50 chance for a trophy.
3. 2011, Arsenal, who knows what would have happened
4. 2012, we wouldn't win either way

So, in a real world, we have 2 trophies in Pep's 4 years.
And we shouldn't have won in 2009, and then, maybe Pep would leave, maybe we would never get mental strength, maybe Pep would try to play differently.
So, we have 2 CLs this way.
And with fair referees, we would have maybe 2010 and maybe 2011. Or maybe NONE, who knows?
But we wouldn't have more than 2 CLs in any way.

So, we would have 0, 1 or 2 CLs.

But I hate these childish:
Real won with luck.
Real had a lucky draw.
Their opponents were scared.
Portugal was lucky.
Barca was unlucky.
Refs were against us.
Messi is always unlucky with his team.

The truth is somewhere in the middle:
Barca had a great team and shit ton of luck and referee's help.
Remember that we lost against Chelsea 2009, team of thugs. Inter 2010, another team of thugs and we couldn't win. Chelsea 2012 again.
So, we were winning due to a good team, help from refs and only when we were lucky in a draw not to face a thug team since Pep never had an answer for those teams.

Real, the same story: a good team, some luck, some help from referees.

But a story how:
1. we were so good and winning trophies only due to our insane quality
2. while RM are winning mostly due to luck and a lucky draw
= imo, is on a level of 12 years kids

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You went full retard. Never do that.

On Redcafe they have a guy named ?Cal. Here we have you.

BBZ8800 said:

Imo:
1. we wouldn't have won a CL in 2009 with a good refereeing
2. in 2010, we would maybe win against Inter, but we would still have to play a final against Bayern. So, this is still a 50:50 chance for a trophy.
3. 2011, Arsenal, who knows what would have happened
4. 2012, we wouldn't win either way

So, in a real world, we have 2 trophies in Pep's 4 years.
And we shouldn't have won in 2009, and then, maybe Pep would leave, maybe we would never get mental strength, maybe Pep would try to play differently.
So, we have 2 CLs this way.
And with fair referees, we would have maybe 2010 and maybe 2011. Or maybe NONE, who knows?
But we wouldn't have more than 2 CLs in any way.

So, we would have 0, 1 or 2 CLs.

But I hate these childish:
Real won with luck.
Real had a lucky draw.
Their opponents were scared.
Portugal was lucky.
Barca was unlucky.
Refs were against us.
Messi is always unlucky with his team.

The truth is somewhere in the middle:
Barca had a great team and shit ton of luck and referee's help.
Remember that we lost against Chelsea 2009, team of thugs. Inter 2010, another team of thugs and we couldn't win. Chelsea 2012 again.
So, we were winning due to a good team, help from refs and only when we were lucky in a draw not to face a thug team since Pep never had an answer for those teams.

Real, the same story: a good team, some luck, some help from referees.

But a story how:
1. we were so good and winning trophies only due to our insane quality
2. while RM are winning mostly due to luck and a lucky draw
= imo, is on a level of 12 years kids

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Holy fuck you're on another level of subjective thinking. Like your world against any other. Congratulations.

serghei said:

You went full retard. Never do that.

On Redcafe they have a guy named ?Cal. Here we have you.

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I dont know man, i hope he's troll for his own sake.

Kul_z said:

Holy fuck you're on another level of subjective thinking. Like your world against any other. Congratulations.

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Lel.

Let's go 1 by 1:
1. 2009, do you think that we should have won a title with a fair refereeing? No
2. 2010? Maybe
3. 2011? Maybe
4. 2012? No

With which one do you not agree?
Don't be like one of the kids who will say:
1. 2009=we should have won
2. 2010=refs, volcanoes
3. 2011=we should have won
4. 2012=really, really, bad luck

On majority of times when teams win, you need some level of luck.
A team from 1992 saved their asses in the last seconds vs Kaiserslautarn.
And won from a free kick in a final, lol.
2006's team was maybe awarded too harsh red for Chelsea in a first leg.
2009, Chelsea's match etc.

My point is, we had a shit ton of luck and ref's help over years in majority of our titles.
We had tons of quality also, that is true.

But imo, it is beyond childish and ignorant to say: we won all our titles in a fair way, ref and volcanoes screwed us in 2010, bad luck screwed us in 2012.
Well, if volcanoes screwed us in 2010, on the other hand, we won a title in 2015 playing against Bayern who missed 8 players in a 1st leg.
It usually evens out over time.
Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes you aren't.

But please don't sell stories: RM is always lucky and poor us are unlucky with bad refs, injuries, bad luck and volcanoes.

Anyway, for example, look at 1992', Cruijff and our first CL ever.
In the 1/8 knockout round, we won 2:0 at home vs German Kaiserslautern.
In the 2nd leg, we were losing 3:0 and scored an away goal in the last seconds of the 90th minute.
Quite lucky, isn't it?
Later we won a CL in extra time against Sampdoria with Ronald Koeman's free kick through the wall. Somewhat lucky, some might say.
Not to mention a foul which preceded that free kick, lol, a total joke out of a foul.
My point: don't whine. We had tons of luck in majority of our CL titles also.

3:1 vs Kaiserslautern:
** An interesting thing. I was talking about Barca's inability to defend against corners and headers against Juve, Roma, Bayern and English teams in the last 20 years.
And how all teams are trying to outscore us in that way.
Look at this. It was the same even in 1992.
We conceded 2 goals from corners even back then (and one from a counter, a classic Barca, lol), against a German team.
So, this is our weak spot for the last 30 years, it seems so (corners and counters):

BBZ8800 said:

Lel.

Let's go 1 by 1:
1. 2009, do you think that we should have won a title with a fair refereeing? No
2. 2010? Maybe
3. 2011? Maybe
4. 2012? No

With which one do you not agree?
Don't be like one of the kids who will say:
1. 2009=we should have won
2. 2010=refs, volcanoes
3. 2011=we should have won
4. 2012=really, really, bad luck

On majority of times when teams win, you need some level of luck.
A team from 1992 saved their asses in the last seconds vs Kaiserslautarn.
And won from a free kick in a final, lol.
2006's team was maybe awarded too harsh red for Chelsea in a first leg.
2009, Chelsea's match etc.

My point is, we had a shit ton of luck and ref's help over years in majority of our titles.
We had tons of quality also, that is true.

But imo, it is beyond childish and ignorant to say: we won all our titles in a fair way, ref and volcanoes screwed us in 2010, bad luck screwed us in 2012.
Well, if volcanoes screwed us in 2010, on the other hand, we won a title in 2015 playing against Bayern who missed 8 players in a 1st leg.
It usually evens out over time.
Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes you aren't.

But please don't sell stories: RM is always lucky and poor us are unlucky with bad refs, injuries, bad luck and volcanoes.

Anyway, for example, look at 1992', Cruijff and our first CL ever.
In the 1/8 knockout round, we won 2:0 at home vs German Kaiserslautern.
In the 2nd leg, we were losing 3:0 and scored an away goal in the last seconds of the 90th minute.
Quite lucky, isn't it?
Later we won a CL in extra time against Sampdoria with Ronald Koeman's free kick through the wall. Somewhat lucky, some might say.
Not to mention a foul which preceded that free kick, lol, a total joke out of a foul.
My point: don't whine. We had tons of luck in majority of our CL titles also.

3:1 vs Kaiserslautern:
** An interesting thing. I was talking about Barca's inability to defend against corners and headers against Juve, Roma, Bayern and English teams in the last 20 years.
And how all teams are trying to outscore us in that way.
Look at this. It was the same even in 1992.
We conceded 2 goals from corners even back then (and one from a counter, a classic Barca, lol), against a German team.
So, this is our weak spot for the last 30 years, it seems so (corners and counters):

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If you could be more pragmatic and objective with your thinking, i'd respect your opinion as i respect your essay commentaries, because it would make me feel so rude not to read something that long because person(you) put so much effort in that. But, your arrogance( in this case, to my commentaries, but i saw that multiple times on this forum with others too) doesnt let you think, change or try to understand second opinion from other forum members. Who mentioned volcanos? I mentioned that milito goal was offside. I said chelsea game first leg, not the second leg. About rm, i didnt say ANYTHING about the draw, you mentioned it to justify your agenda. I dont know if you enjoy this, but it makes me so sick to write about this on the page of our future prospect.

Sorry frenkie, sorry all the forum members.

serghei said:

You went full retard. Never do that.

On Redcafe they have a guy named ?Cal. Here we have you.

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BBZ has got to be a Real fan at heart. Only he would make the case Pep's Barca (universally considered a top 2 club team of all time with Sacchi's Milan) should have gone 0 of 4 in CL instead of 4 in 4.

KingLeo10 said:

BBZ has got to be a Real fan at heart. Only he would make the case Pep's Barca (universally considered a top 2 club team of all time with Sacchi's Milan) should have gone 0 of 4 in CL instead of 4 in 4.

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Nah. Pep's Barca was extremely technical. Not built on workhorses and tall players who make a lot of tackles and win headers. In BBZ land that means you can only be the best with a lot of luck and referee errors on your side.

But I've yet to see a Barca fan who's so against the club's philosophy as BBZ is against Barca's style.