21 - Frenkie de Jong
- Thread starter DonAK
- Start date
serghei
Senior Member
What does physical even mean? Madrid physical?They're sure as hell physical, but they're not clean in the last 2 seasons particularly, which makes us hella predictable as to where you can draw a foul or how to bypass the mids. de Jong doesn't struggle against these teams. Put him against thugs who are actually compact and organised in how they defend and story is a wee different.
Ask BBZ. He's with the 'physical' theory. According to his theory Madrid is the most physical team since muscles is the main thing that makes you great in CL.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I have wrote like 20 000 times that Real is winning Cls due to a mixture of:
1. Technical skills
2. Some physical skills
3. Different attacking options like possession, counters, corners and headers, crosses from an open play and headers
4. Cr7's crazy motivation and hunger
5. Their ability to actually defend against defensive corners
From these 5 points, Barca has only a point no1.
So, it is not only about physique.
Which, btw, we also lack.
For La liga level though, you don't need:
2. Different attacking options
3. Physique
4. Too much motivation
5. Defending at corners against short La liga teams
In La liga, technical skills, possession and Messi are usually more than enough.
Last edited:
You're listing these as if they are facts. It's just your opinion of how you think Real Madrid won CL.
If they've had the ultimate team the last few years, how come they've been so shit in the league? And always been outplayed by us?
We're cruising in the league, Real Madrid the ultimate team is winning the CL. We beat that team with our unmotivated midgets countless of times.
And do you have some stats showing that Barca concede more goals than others from corners?
If I'd have to guess I'd say we score more than we concede from corners.
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
You forgot chance of luck, bad referee decisions and lack of VAR. These both mattered a lot to their success.
It always take luck to win CL.
Last edited:
Yeah and he definitely got the psychical traits to play in that position. From what I have seen he is nowhere good enough on the ball yet.
Btw, I like the fact thar our scouts are constantly active and go hard after youth. We were rumoured to Lucien Agoumé three months ago and now he is starting to get hyped. Really also look good. Remember Lyon got Ndombele from a free transfer from Amiens.
Last edited:
Not a free transfer, although a good deal for Lyon considering his quality.
serghei
Senior Member
Nope. What you do is yack about muscles and physicality almost non-stop. You don't really believe in a balanced setup. If you did you'd love Arthur Melo. And you'd love Frenkie De Jong. Two very complete CM types.
I don't see anyone flat out against Vidal here. On the contrary many love his dedication and the hard effort he puts in effort, but I see you often going against flair technical players in midfield. So, who's the balanced one?
It doesn't stick with me. For me, you clearly like strong midfielders who are much better off the ball than on the ball, who don't do much build-up. You prefer a more reactive style based on fast transition, very common in the Premier League. You probably don't even like possession football that much.
Last edited:
Vilarrubi
New member
+1 haven’t seen anybody against Vidal really.
Also the poll I created had about 5% of votes with Alena in and none with Puig.
So when BBZ says “The Pep guys on the forum want midfields of Arthur, Alena, Puig” it’s just in his imagination.
serghei
Senior Member
Which is perfectly fine, btw. Nothing wrong in preferring more end to end football. In such case having multiple ball-winners in midfield who can quickly release a player on space indeed makes a lot of sense. However, when you plan to control the game and dominate the opponent, such players can't be the dominant profile in the team.
You can already see why when we have to do positional with Busi, Rakitic and Vidal in a midfield trio. If Messi doesn't drop way low, it just doesn't work. But as soon as we sat deep a bit and played on fast transition on the break like vs Betis, Vidal was a monster.
You can already see why when we have to do positional with Busi, Rakitic and Vidal in a midfield trio. If Messi doesn't drop way low, it just doesn't work. But as soon as we sat deep a bit and played on fast transition on the break like vs Betis, Vidal was a monster.
Last edited:
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I have wrote a few times in the past few weeks this reply:
I am a CL-obsessed fan.
For me, winning a CL is more important than a World cup, that's just how I am wired.
Now, since I am watching all Barca's CL's exits since famous Milan:Barca 4:0 final in 1994, I was pissed 100s of times for losing in exactly the same way over years.
Now, since in those years, it was impossible to watch La Liga matches (there was no internet and sport Tv channels like today), I was watching Barca only in El Classicos and in CL exits.
And my knowledge about Barca was built mostly about CL and our flaws in that competition.
And in my eyes, too naive approach, playing too attacking all the time and a lack of physicality were our main flaws pre-Pep, when I wasn't able to watch La Liga matches.
This is why my opinion for years was: muscles is our main problem.
But lately, over the last few Months, I changed my mind and developed a new theory with 2 different competitions/approaches:
1. La liga tactics/lineup
2. Champions league tactics/lineup
Now, my idea about more muscles, defending, height remains the same. BUT ONLY for CL knockout rounds against teams like Bayern, Juve, Atletico, English teams etc.
For La liga, I have changed my mind. Father Pep was right and Pepistas are right.
For La liga, possession, technical and light players are the way to go and even I would play Frenkie-Arthur plus someone like Vidal/Raki as a pivot in the future.
For CL, my pick would be closer to 2 Rakitics and one Frenkie.
So, today, I have nothing against Arthur and Frenkie, even though I like Frenkie more. I don't know why, I am just not a too huge fan of Arthur, even though I would play him in a team.
So, I actually do like a balanced setup:
2 technical or 2 and a half technical Cms for La liga.
And 1 or 2 physical guys for tough CL matches. The same as what Rijkaard did. He played with lighter guys in La liga and with heavy guys in a CL.
It worked after 14 years of CL mysery.
Real is not winning in La Liga, because La Liga teams are physically light, technical, fast, with good off the ball movement.
Not too many teams except Atletico rely on physical players in La Liga.
Under these circumstances, Pep's and Barca's style IS the way to go against crappy La liga teams like Getafe, Levante, Girona, Las Palmas, Rayo and similar.
Passing is safe.
When you keep the ball, you will create 10 shots per match and on larger samples, you will win 2:0 or 3:0 in majority of La Liga matches.
If you cross in La liga, that is risky and the efficiency of crosses is way lower than the efficiency of a smart shortpassing possession based play.
But...
Once when you meet CL opponents like Juve, Bayern and similar who are equally or more technical than La Liga teams and yet way, way, way more physical, than Barca is not used to play against THAT TYPE of opponents.
Then we rely on a gameplan which works against light technical La liga teams with lighter (and shorter midfielders and defenders).
And then: in La liga we are able to create 10 shots per match without any problems.
Yet, in a CL, with the same shortpassing around the box approach, we are hitting the bus all the time.
In those circumstances, teams with more weapons like: shortpasses, direct actions, set pieces (corners), crosses and headers from an open play=have more weapons to break buses of Juve, Bayern and Atletico.
But here is a catch:
Atletico Madrid and it's style is designed for 1:0 and 0:0 matches.
That works perfectly in a CL knockout rounds.
In La Liga though, their 1:0 and 0:0 gamestyle sucks and on 38 rounds, they have way more 1:1 and 0:0 matches against weak teams than Barca.
And this is why Barca's possession style and 3:0 wins are better than Atletico's 1:0 approach.
On the other hand, Barca's too attacking approach will result in either 3:0 wins or 0:3 defeats in a CL.
While Atletico will mostly play 1:0 and 0:0.
So, what works in one competition perfectly, will kill you in the other competition.
The same is with Real.
Gameplan with crosses is more risky and with less efficiency than a smart possession play.
And this is why their style is not as good as our's in La Liga.
But again, our style works ONLY up to a certain level.
In the last few years, even though our style was better for La liga (against weak low table and midtable teams), Atletico and Real had more success in a CL, even though they are weaker than us in La liga.
Someone could simplify it and say: no. We are fine. We were just unlucky. It was just Lucho or Valverde, or refs or volcanoes or Pinto, or whatever excuse.
But the point stands, that after 2012 and Pep/Spain, TikiTaka stopped producing trophies in CL and on World cups/Euros.
TikiTaka and similar styles are still GOATs for LA Liga, Bundesliga and lately for City in EPL.
But every single winner of a CL since 2013 was:
1. a direct team
2. or a team with crosses, direct play and possession. And a mix of technique and physique.
Even Lucho's Barca was a counterattacking Barca, and not a classic possession based Barca.
Germany in 2014, and France in 2018 were again teams who were:
1. either counterattacking deadly teams with awesome technique and physique (France)
2. or a mix of technique and physique (Germany) paired with possession, direct football and crosses in 2014.
I am not saying that it is 100% impossible to win a CL or World cup anymore with Barca's/Spain's style from 2008-2012, but it is way more easier and efficient to win it with a more direct approach or with more different attacking weapons.
I could add: more physique, more aerial threat both in attack and defense.
Also, you asked about Barca's corners.
I won't comment on corners from group stage of a CL.
But regarding knockout stage, I can't remember have we scored any corners in the last few years in KO rounds.
I do remember though some conceded, for example:
2005: exit vs Chelsea 4:2. The last goal conceded after a corner (Terry)
2006: against Chelsea, we won, but conceded an own goal after a corner.
2006: a final against Arsenal, we won. A goal conceded after a corner (Campbell).
2017: Juve, 3:0, the 3rd goal, after a corner Chiellini.
2018: Roma 3:0, the final goal after a corner.
2019: against Lyon, we won, the only goal conceded after a corner again.
If there were more goals from us, my bad.
Also, in the last 10 years, we conceded numerous of goals with headers after crosses.
Which is again explained imo by: LA Liga teams are short and are not THAT dangerous in the air.
So, our defenders are usually short and we don't need to defend too much during corners and not too many teams play a crossing game in La Liga.
So, we are kinda shocked in defending against European teams with aerial weapons since our team is built for La Liga: lighter, shorter, possession based defenders and pivots.
Anyway, I have wrote above to Serghei, this is why I am leaning towards 2 approaches now:
1. La Liga approach (Pep)
2. CL approach (not Pep's classic style)
Last edited:
Nice post BBZ, interesting read and view. Btw, I would say for a CM Frenkie is quite good defensively. Good amount of recoverings and interceptions. He is also very aggressive for a CM. Problem is that he is dead by the 75th minute.
Frenkie as a lone pivot, agree that won’t work. But Frenkie in front of a more psychical DM who is also good on the ball (can’t think of any atm) is quite a strong midfield imo
Can’t stress enough that Frenkie isn’t a DM. His defensive skills (pressing and interceptions) are more suited to the CM position also his offensive skills
Frenkie as a lone pivot, agree that won’t work. But Frenkie in front of a more psychical DM who is also good on the ball (can’t think of any atm) is quite a strong midfield imo
Can’t stress enough that Frenkie isn’t a DM. His defensive skills (pressing and interceptions) are more suited to the CM position also his offensive skills
Last edited:
Home of Barca Fans
