21 - Frenkie de Jong

Jombi said:

That's nuts. I get that you want to claim that everyone believed these absurd exaggerated claims that you make, but thats simply a lie. The guy was nowhere near Iniesta's level at the same age, thats why he was offloaded in the first place.

Our track record has to improve, or else our squad value will continue to decline sharply.

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The point is: your original post sounded to me like: Barca made a mistake because we didn't try to find replacements for the ageing core and as if only Arthur and Umtiti were good.
My point is: we TRIED to find replacements lots of times and majority of our signings had "logic" behind them in that moment.
So, in hindsight, Paco, Denis, Gomes etc all look like a crap or average at best transfers.

And again, my point is, that even DENIS in the moment when we were buying him looked as a guy who COULD turn into a very good player and a future starter in our midfield.
I am not saying that he was supposed to reach Iniesta's level, because NOBODY will ever reach that.
But he looked like a guy who could be our new starter for the next 10 years.
He later turned into an absolute crap. But when we were buying him, we weren't buying a crap or a failure.

But hey, let's say that I am making up things, twisting stats and similar.
Denis was a big thins and a huge hope when we bought him. Probably a way bigger hope/hype than current Alena, Puig, Oriol btw.

I'll just post this cover from October 2018 when he played on a loan for Sevilla:


He was a new shiny toy of the Month/Season in the eyes and hearts of fans and media back then. Remember that.

My point again: we tried to buy lots of young players to build a new generation of players.
When we bought those guys, they looked quite good, promising and with tons of room for an improvement.
Yet, in the end, you know how they developed.

George_Costanza said:

I get your point but do you really think players like Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, and Busquets will leave their childhood club for few more millions? Those players bleed for Barcelona and will never leave if they have been paid the average of any top clubs + Bonuses for winning UCL.

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Why is Messi than asking for new wages all the time?
We could tell him: play for 5M and be happy, we know that you will never leave.
But that is not that simple...
Remember the last year, some of us already thought that he will leave and won't sign a new deal.

Ok, players mentioned in your post wouldn't leave Barca, but they still asked for hefty wages because of our CL wins, right?
The board didn't just come to them and said: we will give you insane wages wages even though you haven't asked for it and even though you will never leave.

There was surely some incentive from players and their agents to get hefty wages, inspite of their love for Barca, isn't it?

Look it's ok if people on the forum misjudge a players quality but "experts" are actually beeing paid for scouting. And if they fail to sign good players year after year than they are just idiots who should be fired. Even a blind 80y old woman with budget like ours would sign a good player (Arthur, Umtiti) every now and than. How the fuck do "expers" come to a conclusion that Gomes or Denis are players for Barca? FFS 90% of people here saw Gomes wasn't a good fit after 5 games he played for us so how could they fail to see that?

BBZ8800 said:

Why is Messi than asking for new wages all the time?
We could tell him: play for 5M and be happy, we know that you will never leave.
But that is not that simple...
Remember the last year, some of us already thought that he will leave and won't sign a new deal.

Ok, players mentioned in your post wouldn't leave Barca, but they still asked for hefty wages because of our CL wins, right?
The board didn't just come to them and said: we will give you insane wages wages even though you haven't asked for it and even though you will never leave.

There was surely some incentive from players and their agents to get hefty wages, inspite of their love for Barca, isn't it?

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That's why I said the incentives have to come from the bonuses, not salary. If you work for an investment bank like Goldman Sachs, your basic salary would be similar to other bulge bracket banks. So how they get paid so much higher overall? It comes from bonuses. Basic salary should be competitive and the same as any other top clubs, not more and not less. Winning the UCL, for example, will earn the club around 80m. If you distribute half of it on the players, then you will have very satisfied players and you won't break the wage structure. I understand Barto and the board don't understand this Wall Street compensation structure but it works. We need new management with new modern ideas.

About Messi, while I don't agree with the huge payroll but I would say he earned it. We owe most of the recent sporting, marketing, and sales success to him. Without him, Barca will not win domestically, will lose sales and marketing revenues.

Cost accounting should be implemented and monitored. I understand clubs like Barcelona and Real are not owned by a single person, family or group, not shareholding company and owners don't get dividends, hence this can create a risk of willful corporate fraud, corruption, and misuse of money. Any well-run company will fire the people who are responsible for losing 41m and the CEO would resign. The case of 41m is Malcom, not a loss so far but considered misuse of money. In a club that can only spend what it earns, this is unacceptable.

I really don't want to be a Barca front office apologist but some of the comments are just too much "the sky is falling" and "we are led by incompetents" nonsense not to respond. For some background I have been very frustrated in recent club planning with Barca moves, but it has been has mostly been 1) on periphery/supporting players (taking too long to get someone like Umtiti; not keeping Alves longer or having a replacement lined up; not getting some extra steel in the midfield, such as how good would it have been to have Arturo Vidal about 5 years ago thru today); times leave the squad too thin when quality vets moved on, and 2) some poor coaching choices (with Valverde not the worst of the lot. But I’ll wait at least until this year for more of a judgement—where the team is now relative to the spring of 2017 is much improved, but I want to see how the squad finishes the season)

Barca has done many excellent moves. How about acquiring Neymar before he stepped foot on a European club. Acquiring Suarez & Dembele. The bid and effort to Griezmann would have worked out terrific now and long term, not sure anyone can fault the effort. If reports are true Barca tried to get Thiago Silva, Verratti, Marquihos. Would have been fine players and good buys.

Everyone seems thrilled with Arthur, and I am too, Barca DNA player who looks like a steal. Umtiti, Alba, MATS and Rakitic were also great buys. Paulhino made some money and helped out last year, and this year’s version in Vidal is a much better footballer. Lenglet looks good. Jury some out for Coutinho and Semedo, but we will see.

The bottom line is there are always more misses and hits when you seek footballers to join elite clubs. Real has failures, United has been in shambles and Arsenal had bad buys. Barca has no contracts as bad as Mkhitaryan, Lukaku, Kepa, Fred, Cesc or Mata, let alone the truly atrocious ones like Ozil or Sanchez. Some players that couldn’t cut it with the skill needed at Barca are competent for other clubs—Paco, two for Everton, Rafinha when healthy. Some that left Barca were backups or were on their downward production and Barca got a fair price—Sanchez, Pedro, Cesc, Thiago. As the PSG states just because a player can’t make it at Barca as a starter doesn’t mean they are undesirable to most clubs.

Barca does have the highest wages, but commiserate they have the highest value in their squad https://www.transfermarkt.com/. You can take everyone's best player and Barca in total player value is #2 behind Real. But Barca has been the dominant club in Spain in winning doubles (including last year), and the only one to get trembles for a decade.

Moving forward I would say two teams are clearly better positioned say in 2-4 years out (as of now) and organizations that have clearly done better in transfers/future planning, City and Liverpool. Real might be better positioned in a couple years but it is very unlikely they won't be competing with Barca until Messi has a big dropoff and they are a mess this year with some murky future (Isco, Benezema, Bale, etc). I wouldn’t trade places with them in a second. PSG has some young superstars but also gaping holes in the squad, potential axe from FFP, and not clear they can keep on to their best player (Neymar).

The sky is not falling at Barca. I know fans have to let off steam and play Monday morning quarterback. I am looking forward to a great chance at a Trifecta+ this year and the next couple years. Good place to be as a fan.

BBZ8800 said:

The point is: your original post sounded to me like: Barca made a mistake because we didn't try to find replacements for the ageing core and as if only Arthur and Umtiti were good.

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I said we have largely failed to acquire high quality younger players so the value of our ageing squad is plummeting, which that report highlights. The staff cost is not simply a wage thing. Its the reduction in the value of our squad. I never said we didnt try, but you pay far too much attention to those absurd exaggerated claims about players. The fact that we rarely sign players that substantially increase in value after joining us is worrying. Denis the new Iniesta and in the hearts of the fans and media? It was always laughable. Fans with some brain cells and honest media would immediately see that. Scouts and management should be better than that. What are our scouts doing? Not much it seems.

I'd like him here but it seems he prefers the golden cage of PSG.

He should bring a plethora of board games from Holland, to prevent him from being bored to death 90% of the season there. Ask his future fellow midfielder Verratti.

EdmondDantes said:

I'd like him here but it seems he prefers the golden cage of PSG.

He should bring a plethora of board games from Holland, to prevent him from being bored to death 90% of the season there. Ask his future fellow midfielder Verratti.

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As if that is not the case in La Liga? The bottom 12 to 14 teams in Spain are just as bad as the bottom 14 teams in France.

90% of Barca's games in La Liga are boring as fuck. There's not much good match ups at all, and if the match-up seems close it's only because Barca plays bad which is boring as well.

VN10 said:

As if that is not the case in La Liga? The bottom 12 to 14 teams in Spain are just as bad as the bottom 14 teams in France.

90% of Barca's games in La Liga are boring as fuck. There's not much good match ups at all, and if the match-up seems close it's only because Barca plays bad which is boring as well.

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You're insane if you really believe that. The bottom teams in La Liga might not have the funds of their Premier League kins for example, but they do have talent and technique. Ligue 1 is nowhere near La Liga.

But then again, your perspective/parameter is the current Eredivisie which is the 13th best league in Europe.


On a slightly different note, I find Frenkie/ his representative's arrogance in asking for a starting place in the team in the negotiations distasteful. I mean, on the grand scheme of things, who is he to make such demands? Sure he and De Ligt seem more talented than their Dutch/Eredivisie peers but there have been plenty of flops to come out of Holland in the last few years.


Depay, Jansen and Klaasen have all been irrefutable, monumental flops. And they were the best players in the league, much like Frenkie is now. Who is to say he doesn't go the same route. To use a Bundesliga example, even Weigl at Dortmund had a comparable reputation at some point, and now where is he, and what has he done of late?

Frenkie for now is a talent, nothing more. And the current Eredivisie isn't the best place to gauge it.

EdmondDantes said:

You're insane if you really believe that. The bottom teams in La Liga might not have the funds of their Premier League kins for example, but they do have talent and technique. Ligue 1 is nowhere near La Liga.

But then again, your perspective/parameter is the current Eredivisie which is the 13th best league in Europe.


On a slightly different note, I find Frenkie/ his representative's arrogance in asking for a starting place in the team in the negotiations distasteful. I mean, on the grand scheme of things, who is he to make such demands? Sure he and De Ligt seem more talented than their Dutch/Eredivisie peers but there have been plenty of flops to come out of Holland in the last few years.


Depay, Jansen and Klaasen have all been irrefutable, monumental flops. And they were the best players in the league, much like Frenkie is now. Who is to say he doesn't go the same route. To use a Bundesliga example, even Weigl at Dortmund had a comparable reputation at some point, and now where is he, and what has he done of late?

Frenkie for now is a talent, nothing more. And the current Eredivisie isn't the best place to gauge it.

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It's the truth, but most of you don't watch enough football to know better. Those with even a cursory understanding of football know that it would be impossible for France to develop that amount of talent it does, at the level it does, if its footballing infrastructure were as weak as people like yourself would have us believe.

Jair Ventura said:

It's the truth, but most of you don't watch enough football to know better. Those with even a cursory understanding of football know that it would be impossible for France to develop that amount of talent it does, at the level it does, if its footballing infrastructure were as weak as people like yourself would have us believe.

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The truth is France is a distant 5th in Uefa coefficient (and 5th in total player value with PSG soaking up about 1/3rd of that) and La Liga is far ahead in 1st. Also apparent is Real and Barca have faced a lot more defeats and close battles in La Liga than they generally get in the CL. And it isn't Real or Barca who have been cleaning up Europa titles either, because they never find themselves in that competition.

If you observe football closely it is clear La Liga (because of good physical skills and great technical skills needed, if you want something objective see they are 2nd in player value and 1st in uefa coef) and the EPL (because of great physical skills and good technique need; 1st in player value and 2nd if uefa coef) are far, far, more difficult leagues to play well than in Bundesliga or Serie A, which are in miles ahead of Ligue 1. Don't even get to the Dutch league--somewhere between Brazil and Portugal leagues in overall level of talent and team quality.

France produces great prospects as a county, so does Nigeria, Brazil, Argentina and Ghana, doesn't mean their league is 1st rate. Most France NT members don't play in the home county and those that do it play for their one non-feeder club infused with billions from Qatar.

Arizona Scott said:

The truth is France is a distant 5th in Uefa coefficient (and 5th in total player value with PSG soaking up about 1/3rd of that) and La Liga is far ahead in 1st. Also apparent is Real and Barca have faced a lot more defeats and close battles in La Liga than they generally get in the CL. And it isn't Real or Barca who have been cleaning up Europa titles either, because they never find themselves in that competition.

If you observe football closely it is clear La Liga (because of good physical skills and great technical skills needed, if you want something objective see they are 2nd in player value and 1st in uefa coef) and the EPL (because of great physical skills and good technique need; 1st in player value and 2nd if uefa coef) are far, far, more difficult leagues to play well than in Bundesliga or Serie A, which are in miles ahead of Ligue 1. Don't even get to the Dutch league--somewhere between Brazil and Portugal leagues in overall level of talent and team quality.

France produces great prospects as a county, so does Nigeria, Brazil, Argentina and Ghana, doesn't mean their league is 1st rate. Most France NT members don't play in the home county and those that do it play for their one non-feeder club infused with billions from Qatar.

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The truth is you’re from Arizona and don’t know anything about football.

Jair Ventura said:

The truth is you’re from Arizona and don’t know anything about football.

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So, so clever you are JV. I both watch and study a lot more than you, thanks to the age of Bein, NBC sports, fox and espn. Yeah!

George_Costanza said:

That's why I said the incentives have to come from the bonuses, not salary. If you work for an investment bank like Goldman Sachs, your basic salary would be similar to other bulge bracket banks. So how they get paid so much higher overall? It comes from bonuses. Basic salary should be competitive and the same as any other top clubs, not more and not less. Winning the UCL, for example, will earn the club around 80m. If you distribute half of it on the players, then you will have very satisfied players and you won't break the wage structure. I understand Barto and the board don't understand this Wall Street compensation structure but it works. We need new management with new modern ideas. .....
.

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I think this is a great idea and should be implemented to the degree feasible with future players and their agents. It isn't always directly applicable however is their are a small level of true elite talents, often not interchangable, and they have a lot of leverage. You don't have roughly 50 equally qualified and promising guys just waiting in line for their chance. This however would be a particular good way to do older player contracts (Busi, Rakitic, Alba, Pique)--including lots of individual (matches played) and team variables.

George_Costanza said:

group, not shareholding company and owners don't get dividends, hence this can create a risk of willful corporate fraud, corruption, and misuse of money. Any well-run company will fire the people who are responsible for losing 41m and the CEO would resign. The case of 41m is Malcom, not a loss so far but considered misuse of money. In a club that can only spend what it earns, this is unacceptable.

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What if the scout who pushed Malcom also pushed Arthur or Yerry Mina (who made the club over 20 mil in 6 months). If Malcom is solid for 40-50 than it is a wash, or benefit even.

Bottom line is scouting is very difficult. I would compare to something like high pressure high stakes advertising. Get a huge win every 3-4-5 efforts are you are doing awesome. Always more failures than successes for the big clubs seeking huge talents that can make it for them.

My issue with people here talking about "farmer league Ligue 1" (besides the fact that they never even watch Ligue 1) is that they always tend to say that Ligue 1 is "miles" behind Bundesliga or Italy in terms of overall level.

Worse, they don't criticize based on what they're seeing, but only based on the UEFA coefficient of the country.

First of all, you can't judge a whole league based on that. The fact that Real or Barca are earning a lot of points in C1 doesn't make Eibar better than Angers. The success of a team in Europe and its success in its national league are not necessarily correlated. It depends on which competition you prioritize (see Real Madrid going all or nothing in UCL, especially when the title is clearly lost in La Liga - as opposed to a lot of french team who just only play with their usual subs in EL because they're just in it to grab a few millions), and it also depends on your squad depth (a thing that French team clearly lack in general, see Marseille and their horrible subs). Plus, you're comparing leagues who have a clear advantage in terms of number of spots in UCL to a league who only has 2 spots + 1 spot with several preliminary rounds. It's hard to grab points for France than it is for England or Spain (the whole system was designed to favor those leagues).

Second of all, if you really want to base your whole opinion on that, you should at least go check UEFA points for the past 5 seasons. France was ahead of Germany or Italy at least once in that span of time. They were even on par with England 2 years ago if I reckon correctly. Next year, a pretty bad year for french football (and a very good year for italian football) will disappear from the general tally, and our points should be pretty close to Italy's point total for example (although it will of course depend on how well french and italian teams perform this season in Europe). As of now, it would be, without that last year:
- Spain: 77.355
- England: 62.034
- Germany 53.927
- Italy: 53.154
- France: 46.249

Same margin between Spain and England as between England and France. Even though France has 1 less team in UCL, and 1 less team in European competitions overall.

So once again, before everybody go all crazy and start saying "OH RIGHT SO FRANCE IS AS GOOD AS SPAIN UH ? LOLOLOLOL": no, Ligue 1 is clearly not as good as La Liga. It's not as good as Bundesliga or Serie A either, if you want my two cents, but it's really close, and getting closer (the gap should even grow thinner with the new TV rights coming in soon). And the difference is mostly due to how well big teams are performing in Europe. Most teams from 9 to 20 are bad either way. If you think Levante would be competing for a UCL spot in France, you're just blatantly wrong.

The infrastructure of Italian football is so bad it that I no longer take the notion that Serie A is better than Ligue 1 seriously. Stadiums, finances, academies, talent development, broadcasting aesthetics-- All lean towards France. The sole, tangible advantage Italian football has is managerially. That and their clubs are free to amass massive debts whereas the DNCG disallows that in France.