21 - Frenkie de Jong

Is that post above serious?!

Your formations and players are off on a lot of those. All of them.

Dortmund play 343 and Haaland plays CF.

Liverpool will never play 4231 next season as they need 3 CMs with two such attacking fullbacks.

Very few if any top teams play 4231.

JamDav1982 said:

Is that post above serious?!

Your formations and players are off on a lot of those. All of them.

Dortmund play 343 and Haaland plays CF.

Liverpool will never play 4231 next season as they need 3 CMs with two such attacking fullbacks.

Very few if any top teams play 4231.

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Since Lucien Favre took over the Dortmund team, he has always used that formation. You put Haaland instead of Gotze as a CF and you got it right. Borusia has always played with single striker up front, since Hazard and Sancho are more of an LAM and RAM and Rues is their Second Striker.

As of Liverpool, all of the indications are that Werner will join Klopp's side. And if that happen, the famous trio of Mane, Firmino and Salah will still be there, so you can see why I have seen it as 4-2-3-1. That can only change, if they also sign Kai Havertz, as the rumors are going on. In that case Firmino may sit on the bench, which is very unlikely since the red fans dies for him. For that system, they have the best DM's in Firmino and Henderson. They don't need 3 CM's. Robertson and Trent-Alexander are always in attacking mode and Firmino, as a false # 9 is more of a play-maker.

And as of Barcelona, if we sign Lautaro, I don't see how 120 m. French national will sit on the bench, because Messi and Suarez will be starters for sure. You may not like that. I don't either, but this is the reality for at least one more season.

LABarcafan tries and sometimes he is successful, but that 4-2-3-1 case was just......

Plus like jamdav said Liverpool will next play a 4-2-3-1.

Never.

Everyone and there mother has been saying for a while though, that 4231 is the easiest way to fix our Messi problem, nothing new there, will probably never happen though.

LABarcaFan said:

Since Lucien Favre took over the Dortmund team, he has always used that formation. You put Haaland instead of Gotze as a CF and you got it right. Borusia has always played with single striker up front, since Hazard and Sancho are more of an LAM and RAM and Rues is their Second Striker.

As of Liverpool, all of the indications are that Werner will join Klopp's side. And if that happen, the famous trio of Mane, Firmino and Salah will still be there, so you can see why I have seen it as 4-2-3-1. That can only change, if they also sign Kai Havertz, as the rumors are going on. In that case Firmino may sit on the bench, which is very unlikely since the red fans dies for him. For that system, they have the best DM's in Firmino and Henderson. They don't need 3 CM's. Robertson and Trent-Alexander are always in attacking mode and Firmino, as a false # 9 is more of a play-maker.

And as of Barcelona, if we sign Lautaro, I don't see how 120 m. French national will sit on the bench, because Messi and Suarez will be starters for sure. You may not like that. I don't either, but this is the reality for at least one more season.

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Dortmund have played with a back line of 3 non-stop since november. https://www.transfermarkt.com/borussia-dortmund/spielplandatum/verein/16

Werner is bought to provide width and competition to the front three.

The truth is 4-2-3-1 used to be popular, it's not anymore. It's exactly the opposite of what you're saying. 4-2-3-1 doesn't have the same triangles in build up as 4-3-3 does, so it's much more preferred in a direct tactic like Bayern 2013 or Mourinho's Madrid.

4-2-3-1 is past.

3-4-3 , 4-3-3 and 3-4-1-2 are future

vuji_31 said:

4-2-3-1 is past.

3-4-3 , 4-3-3 and 3-4-1-2 are future

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It is very easy to say something, but many times the reality is totally different. I won't argue about which system will suit better for us. I just need you to explain where will you place the players we have in 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2. And something else. There is no old and new systems in the football. Each manager decides which one to choose according to the players he has. Same as the players. There is no old and young. There is able and incapable. Again, as I have already mentioned, many top European teams are still using that system from the past and have long lasting success.

Andresito said:

Dortmund have played with a back line of 3 non-stop since november. https://www.transfermarkt.com/borussia-dortmund/spielplandatum/verein/16

Werner is bought to provide width and competition to the front three.

The truth is 4-2-3-1 used to be popular, it's not anymore. It's exactly the opposite of what you're saying. 4-2-3-1 doesn't have the same triangles in build up as 4-3-3 does, so it's much more preferred in a direct tactic like Bayern 2013 or Mourinho's Madrid.

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I have to disagree with you. You are 100% wrong on all of you have written. I know, for some reason you like always to argue with me and act like a judge on every post here, which I don't pay attention. But, when you pretend to now everything, it is not right to write such a nonsense.

For several years Dortmund has adopted the 4-2-3-1 system, even when Dembele, Lewndowski and Mkhitaryan were playing there. You are right that since Nov.2019, they have tried 4-3-3, but it did not worked well for them, so they came back to their basic 4-2-3-1. Yesterday's derby Borusia - Bayern proved that I was right and you were wrong. And this time, I am going to go with details to back my words.

Home team (Borusia Dotmund played in 4-2-3-1 formation)

................... Haland........................

Hazard...... Brandt.......Guereiro
................. (Sancho - 45)..........................
............Dahoud............ Delaney......
...........(Witzel-85)........... (Can-45)............

Hakimi......Hummels......Akinji......Piszczek
............................................................ (Gotze-80)
................................... Burki........................................


Visiting team (Bayern Munich played 4-2-3-1 formation as well)

........................... Lewandowski...................

.......Coman...... T.Muller....... Gnabry.....
........(Perisic -73).......................... (Martinez - 87)......

...................Goretzka.......... Kimmich...............

Davies....... Alaba......... Boateng.......Pavard
......................................................(Hernandez-85)...........................

..................................... Neuer...............................................

This 4-2-3-1 system Andersito is a basic system, which is still in use from many top teams in Europe. That formation allows teams to flow very easily to 4-3-3, when in counter-attack are needed more people up front. Hazard, Guereiro and Jadon Sancho are players who can make that flow for Borusia. Coman, Perisic, Gnabry and Martinez are the ones for Bayern. The beauty of this formation is that allows you to change it several times during the game,without making any players substitutions

Using the 4-2-3-1 formation, Bayern Munich has recorded some of its most perstigious victories in 2019 and 2020.

Oct.01,2019 Tottenham - Bayern 2:7

Oct.22,2019 Olympiacos - Bayern 2:3

Feb.25, 2020 Chelsea - Bayern 0:3

The truth is that 4-2-3-1 is still very popular and is exactly what I was saying. And, based on the players we have, it can be very beneficiary for Setien to start using it.

............................Martinez...........................
Griezmann............. Messi................. Trincao
................... DCM..................... FDJ....................
Alba......... LCD.................Pique.......... Semedo
......................... MATS......................................

Having fast wingers like Griezmann, A.Fati, Trincao or Dembele will allow for very smooth transition from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 when is needed. Again, all teams choose their formations based on the players they have. You guys have to understand one thing. Messi is no longer that magical right winger who was able to dribble between 4-5-6 defenders and score or find an open team-mate. We all know that he is player without any certain position on the field. And our system after Guardiola is .... just look for Messi.... just pass it to Messi...... just Messi, Messi, Messi. That won't work anymore. All top teams know very well our playing stile and are taking advantage of it. If Barcelona does not change it's playing system and style, we won't be able to get out of the hole, we are at the moment. That is what I had to tell you and all other that are still living in that tiki-taka Pep's system. Sooner you forget it, better.

You either dont have a clue or are trolling because Dortmund did not set up like that.

Stop while you are behind.

I put LABarcaFan in the same pool of users as messigician and gnidrologist, never entirely sure if they are trolling or delusional.

lol LABarcafan, Dortmund played a 3-4-3 in today's game

Anyone who saw the game today knows that

https://www.transfermarkt.us/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3203676

4-2-3-1 is not outdated it is just more flexible and evolved and somewhat blends with a 4-3-3. It used to be a setup where one or both CDM's were static players like Xabi Alonso/Javi Martinez/Essien/Carrick/Mascherano who had a fixed position.

Nowadays they are made up by more dynamic players in the pivot position. France had a very dynamic double pivot in 4-2-3-1 to win the World Cup in Kante/Pogba. Ajax and Netherlands both have had Frenkie de Jong as part of a dynamic double pivot next to Schone or de Roon. The more vertical box to box attacking midfielders in those setups were Van de Beek and Wijnaldum.

Liverpool pretty much uses Wijnaldum in the same more free/box to box role while Fabinho and Henderson cover.

Throwing this idea out the window is insanity since it is KNOWN that both FDJ and Griezmann have done their best work in that kind of 4-2-3-1 setup. Barca will always be comfortable inn 4-3-3 but if we can't use key players in the right positions in that setup then a fairly similar 4-2-3-1 is no bad thing. Ajax took their team to a CL semifinal with this 4-2-3-1 setup playing beautiful football with well paced transitions/triangles. And the thing is we have players with a VERY similar profile (Ziyech/Messi, Vidal/Van de Beek, FDJ himself, technical forwards like Griez who aren't all too different from Tadic).

3-4-3 is the absolute worst formation for Barca and led to our worst performances under Setien so far. It is so painfully flat and has barely any players between lines. We couldn't penetrate at all, creating a disconnect between the midfield and attack. Slow buildup and "control" except the passing play is in total gridlock and we can barely produce potent offensive chances. Shackling a fullback as a 3rd CB, or using an extra (useless) sweeper CB for no reason doesn't benefit us whatsoever. The formation is genuinely super unnatural and un-fluid in the way it affects the back 4/deep midfield.

LABarcaFan said:

I have to disagree with you. You are 100% wrong on all of you have written. I know, for some reason you like always to argue with me and act like a judge on every post here, which I don't pay attention. But, when you pretend to now everything, it is not right to write such a nonsense.

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You're right, it's low hanging fruit and I can't help it.

Did you even check the link I posted? It's also obvious you didn't watch the game and just guessing the formations.

DonAndres said:

4-2-3-1 is not outdated it is just more flexible and evolved and somewhat blends with a 4-3-3. It used to be a setup where one or both CDM's were static players like Xabi Alonso/Javi Martinez/Essien/Carrick/Mascherano who had a fixed position.

Throwing this idea out the window is insanity since it is KNOWN that both FDJ and Griezmann have done their best work in that kind of 4-2-3-1 setup. Barca will always be comfortable inn 4-3-3 but if we can't use key players in the right positions in that setup then a fairly similar 4-2-3-1 is no bad thing. Ajax took their team to a CL semifinal with this 4-2-3-1 setup playing beautiful football with well paced transitions/triangles. And the thing is we have players with a VERY similar profile (Ziyech/Messi, Vidal/Van de Beek, FDJ himself, technical forwards like Griez who aren't all too different from Tadic).

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Sure but then you need a hard working CAM like Muller or Griezmann. With Messi it'd be a 4-2-4 unless the wingers sacrifice some offensive power, which means it turns into a 4-4-2 with a LM and RM who usually can't defend.

DonAndres said:

4-2-3-1 is not outdated it is just more flexible and evolved and somewhat blends with a 4-3-3. It used to be a setup where one or both CDM's were static players like Xabi Alonso/Javi Martinez/Essien/Carrick/Mascherano who had a fixed position.

Nowadays they are made up by more dynamic players in the pivot position. France had a very dynamic double pivot in 4-2-3-1 to win the World Cup in Kante/Pogba. Ajax and Netherlands both have had Frenkie de Jong as part of a dynamic double pivot next to Schone or de Roon. The more vertical box to box attacking midfielders in those setups were Van de Beek and Wijnaldum.

Liverpool pretty much uses Wijnaldum in the same more free/box to box role while Fabinho and Henderson cover.

Throwing this idea out the window is insanity since it is KNOWN that both FDJ and Griezmann have done their best work in that kind of 4-2-3-1 setup. Barca will always be comfortable inn 4-3-3 but if we can't use key players in the right positions in that setup then a fairly similar 4-2-3-1 is no bad thing. Ajax took their team to a CL semifinal with this 4-2-3-1 setup playing beautiful football with well paced transitions/triangles. And the thing is we have players with a VERY similar profile (Ziyech/Messi, Vidal/Van de Beek, FDJ himself, technical forwards like Griez who aren't all too different from Tadic).

3-4-3 is the absolute worst formation for Barca and led to our worst performances under Setien so far. It is so painfully flat and has barely any players between lines. We couldn't penetrate at all, creating a disconnect between the midfield and attack. Slow buildup and "control" except the passing play is in total gridlock and we can barely produce potent offensive chances. Shackling a fullback as a 3rd CB, or using an extra (useless) sweeper CB for no reason doesn't benefit us whatsoever. The formation is genuinely super unnatural and un-fluid in the way it affects the back 4/deep midfield.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the supporting post. Unfortunately, there are still some users that either has very low knowledge of football or are just delusional. I came up with facts that many top European teams are using very successfully 4-2-3-1 formation, but they just don't want to accept the truth. What these users don't understand is that in the traditional 4-3-3 system we are having a big gap on the right flank because Messi is fake RW. They know very well that he is not playing there anymore and are still downplaying that fact. Martinez(Griezmann) - Suarez - Messi in 4-3-3 may work only if we have at the right flank a solid attacking midfielder. Neither, A.Melo or FDJ are good in that role.
But in 4-2-3-1 formation with Martines as a striker and Griezmann - Messi - Trincao playing behind him, when is needed, Griezmann and Trincao can advance from the flanks to create 3 players front line. Then, FDJ and another DM will also move forward to form 3 man midfield (for 4-3-3 ). It is very simple system and I believe it will be the best suited for Barcelona.I will stop it here. Lets see what players we will sign in July and then we can talk about the best system and lineups.Now is kind of too early for that.

For the 4-2-3-1 to work, you need a striker who is strong and technical, and can hold the ball very well. That makes or breaks the system. Because he is a lone striker. If he is not isolated and two wide players stay closer to him frequently, this is not a 4-2-3-1 anymore, it's like a more defensively-cautious variation of 4-3-3, with a 2-1 trio in midfield (2 DMs + 1 CM-AM), instead of 1-2 (1 DM + 2CM-AM). More like what Spain played at the World cup, with Pedro, Iniesta advanced next to False 9 Fabregas and a 2-1 midfield with Busi - Alonso with Xavi as a playmaker a bit higher.

For 4-2-3-1 you need a real pivot who is good in the air, good at protecting the ball, and good at link-up play. Think Harry Kane in Tottenham under Pochettino, with a dynamic 3 line with Son, Delle Ali, Eriksen. Or Lewandowski in Dortmund under Klopp, when he had a 3 line behind him with Reus, Gotze and Błaszczykowski.

That's just not our team at all and it would take years for us to become one. And frankly, I don't even like it in terms of style. I think what we are playing is fine in terms of style. We just need to bring back the key aspects that we have missed for a good few years already. Athleticism, speed, motivation, tactical coordination.

Current Liverpool, when they need to attack and play positional football, play close to our style. Only faster, and not as worried about losing the ball. Liverpool - Atletico looked very much at times like a Barca match vs a parked bus, back when we could run and press. Got vibes of Barcelona - Chelsea from 2012.