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Thread: 21 - Frenkie de Jong

  1. #6961
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    For the 4-2-3-1 to work, you need a striker who is strong and technical, and can hold the ball very well. That makes or breaks the system. Because he is a lone striker. If he is not isolated and two wide players stay closer to him frequently, this is not a 4-2-3-1 anymore, it's like a more defensively-cautious variation of 4-3-3, with a 2-1 trio in midfield (2 DMs + 1 CM-AM), instead of 1-2 (1 DM + 2CM-AM). More like what Spain played at the World cup, with Pedro, Iniesta advanced next to False 9 Fabregas and a 2-1 midfield with Busi - Alonso with Xavi as a playmaker a bit higher.

    For 4-2-3-1 you need a real pivot who is good in the air, good at protecting the ball, and good at link-up play. Think Harry Kane in Tottenham under Pochettino, with a dynamic 3 line with Son, Delle Ali, Eriksen. Or Lewandowski in Dortmund under Klopp, when he had a 3 line behind him with Reus, Gotze and Błaszczykowski.

    That's just not our team at all and it would take years for us to become one. And frankly, I don't even like it in terms of style. I think what we are playing is fine in terms of style. We just need to bring back the key aspects that we have missed for a good few years already. Athleticism, speed, motivation, tactical coordination.

    Current Liverpool, when they need to attack and play positional football, play close to our style. Only faster, and not as worried about losing the ball. Liverpool - Atletico looked very much at times like a Barca match vs a parked bus, back when we could run and press. Got vibes of Barcelona - Chelsea from 2012.
    Last edited by serghei; 27th May 2020 at 12:29 PM.

  2. #6962
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    Question is though, if the system that gets the best out of Frenkie is 4-2-3-1, the same system that arguably made him the best midfielder in the world last year, why would we not strive towards that? The modifications required to defence would be low due to keeping the same shape at the back. The real difference would come in the rest of the formation, but the 2 part of it would be made a lot stronger (frenkie in his favourite formation) so long as he was paired with someone ideal (Partey for me would be the best signing we could make).

    Then we move on to the 3 and 1 section of the formation. If anything the 3 in the formation means the fullbacks are closer to them so can more effectively pair up for attack/defence. Griezmann at LM (I'm assuming he's staying) would be a far more useful player than he is operating as a slow LW. Messi being on the right/free role would require some thinking from the manager. The CAM would have to be aware of Messi's positioning and be willing to do some defensive work for him/swap positions, maybe Griezmann could actually be useful here.

    The striker I agree would need to be more physical, so lets sign a decent striker who can hold the ball well. This makes our transfer policy so much better. Picking players based on their traits as opposed to throwing €100m+ at names and trying to shove them in hoping they make a difference.

  3. #6963
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    Because the club is historically known to achieve the highest glory playing the 4-3-3. Why would you wanna change that?

    We are a possession team. We spend more time keeping and passing the ball around, and creating chances by doing that. Whatever system we choose will have to allow us to do that the best. I don't see any system being as great as 4-3-3 for us.

    System and playing style need to remain how they are. They are what separate us from the other big teams who play more or less the same kind of football.
    Last edited by serghei; 27th May 2020 at 03:48 PM.

  4. #6964
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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    Because the club is historically known to achieve the highest glory playing the 4-3-3. Why would you wanna change that?

    We are a possession team. We spend more time keeping and passing the ball around, and creating chances by doing that. Whatever system we choose will have to allow us to do that the best. I don't see any system being as great as 4-3-3 for us.

    System and playing style need to remain how they are. They are what separate us from the other big teams who play more or less the same kind of football.
    Exactly, no need to move away from 4-3-3.

    Maybe moving away from slow unathletic unmotivated players and players forced to play on the wings when they’re not true wingers would be a good start before we start to talk about different formations

  5. #6965
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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    Because the club is historically known to achieve the highest glory playing the 4-3-3. Why would you wanna change that?

    We are a possession team. We spend more time keeping and passing the ball around, and creating chances by doing that. Whatever system we choose will have to allow us to do that the best. I don't see any system being as great as 4-3-3 for us.

    System and playing style need to remain how they are. They are what separate us from the other big teams who play more or less the same kind of football.
    You are right, we have achieved the highest glory as a team, playing 4-3-3. No question about it. But back then, we had the best XI in the world. Pique, Puyol, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi, all in their primes. That team was joy to watch. Unfortunately, today's formations of Valverde and Setien has nothing to do with that glorious times. All of the amigos are washed, aged and most importantly, they don't have that motivation for glory anymore. These group of players has won everything. I mean everything that can be won on the field. The luck of motivation and their age is the main reason we have suffered badly in the last 4-5 years.

    I understand your desire to stay with 4-3-3 and all that sad above. But in a front-line of Griezmann, Suarez and Messi only the Frenchman runs and press. And he is as effective as LW as Suarez at # 9. Messi does not play D at all. In the mid 3 of A.Melo, Busy and FDJ, we have another big problems. Busy as a CDM is very slow and soft. In that position we should have someone like Partey, Kante or Ndidi to control the midfield. Arthur is not known as of his defense. He is not that effective as a CM either. Frenkie is defensive specialist and has played his best games at that position, but in that formation ( which is the current) he is playing out of position same as Griz, and for that reason is not that effective. Here is the moment to say another important thing. Messi does not play as a RW. Actually, he does not have position in this team. He is a free man, trying to do everything by himself. That does not work either, because he has lost his speed, aggression and his shots are not going to the target as they used to. So him, moving to the middle all the time is creating disbalance and havoc. There is a big gap at the right side, because neither FDJ or Semedo are playing as an attacking midfield or advanced full back. And as you know very well, our defense is the worst area of the team. There is no even one solid piece who can keep the fort. So, all in all, that formation will not work for us with the players we have.And honestly, till Messi is still in the squad, I don't see that 4-3-3 working. Lets see what kind of players we'll sign this summer and then make a comments.

  6. #6966
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    I?d love for us to be able to play 4-3-3. Just don?t see it working as well with our limited aging midfielders and our non existent wingers.

  7. #6967
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    4-3-3 should be the way to go as people have mentioned. The formation doesn't necessarily equal possession based football. Just look at Liverpool and Real Madrid. It's a very versatile formation.

    For this season I think the best midfield would be Arthur-Frenkie-Vidal.
    For the next I'd replace Vidal with someone more consistent, but Frenkie is our DM no doubt.

  8. #6968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilarrubi View Post
    Exactly, no need to move away from 4-3-3.

    Maybe moving away from slow unathletic unmotivated players and players forced to play on the wings when they?re not true wingers would be a good start before we start to talk about different formations
    Those players are here for the next two years at least. I don't think the seniors are all going to leave at the end of this or next season. We need tactics and formations that suit the current players not vice versa. We simply cannot play a fast, hard pressing 433 anymore.
    The problem wasn't Shitverdes defensive football it was the way he implemented it. He should have brought in a few players suited to the 442 and dumped some of the seniors. Instead he was soft on the squad especially the seniors and never really tightened the defense or midfield.

  9. #6969
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barcilliant View Post
    Those players are here for the next two years at least. I don't think the seniors are all going to leave at the end of this or next season. We need tactics and formations that suit the current players not vice versa. We simply cannot play a fast, hard pressing 433 anymore.
    The problem wasn't Shitverdes defensive football it was the way he implemented it. He should have brought in a few players suited to the 442 and dumped some of the seniors. Instead he was soft on the squad especially the seniors and never really tightened the defense or midfield.
    We should all accept the fact that we're not going to win the CL with this aging core. It's done. Last year was the veterans Swan Song but they sang out of tune in the end.

    There's no system you can use to hide the fact that these players are old and not as motivated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andresito View Post
    4-3-3 should be the way to go as people have mentioned. The formation doesn't necessarily equal possession based football. Just look at Liverpool and Real Madrid. It's a very versatile formation.

    For this season I think the best midfield would be Arthur-Frenkie-Vidal.
    For the next I'd replace Vidal with someone more consistent, but Frenkie is our DM no doubt.
    4-3-3 is insanely good for pressing as well. Basically, wide players cut the most used passing channels which is CBs to corresponding fullback. And the center player blocks the vertical transition to the main midfielder in build-up.

    It's not easy to pass around from the back against a dynamic 4-3-3. Because 10 (Mane) and 11 (Salah) from Liverpool position themselves in a way as to make passing to the fullback risky, they allow other Liverpool players to squeeze in the center a lot, being ultra compact.

    That's why it was extremely dumb to play Rakitic knowing this.

    Something like this:



    In this moment, the very good off the ball press of Mane, allows both the 7 and the 5 from Liverpool to really pounce on Fernandinho when he gets the ball. At worst, they make him back-pass (which is not as easy as it sounds because the press means the Liverpool attackers are close to City's defenders), at best they cause a turnover for City. And look how many players Liverpool have there around the ball. 5-6 players.

    In our case, the poor work of our forwards off the ball in terms of pressing and positioning, means that the '7' has to stay much closer to the '17' from City. Which makes the DM more isolate in the center (speaking of De Jong being isolated defensively as lone DM).
    Last edited by serghei; 28th May 2020 at 04:00 PM.

  10. #6970
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    @ serghei

    "serghei" what is the reason,you "Andersito" and "Vilarrubi" are intentionally ignoring the simple fact that Barcelona does not play 4-3-3 from a long time?
    On paper, yes, it is 4-3-3, but in reality is this:


    ....................... SUAREZ.........................

    GRIEZZ.......... MESSI..............................

    ALBA.....MELO...........F D J......................

    ...................... BUSY..................................

    ............LENGLET.........PIQUE.......SEMEDO

    This is the real Barcelona formation under Valverde and Setien. Or, it is maybe better not to use the word formation, because there is no one. It is a total havoc. As anyone can see, there are 3 major gaps in our lineup and that is one of the reasons we are such a mess at the back-court.

    1. Back line GAP at the left, created from Alba, who is constantly leaving his zone and does not return back on time.

    2. Midfield GAP at the right side, because Busy is the CDM and Frenkie has never succeeded as a RAM to invade from the right flank.

    3. Very big GAP at the right side of our attacking line, because as mentioned many times already, Don Lionnel DOES NOT PLAY AS A RIGHT WING ANYMORE.

    With this same players we have, assuming the board will not pay 111 m. for Lautaro ( in cash ) I would sign Tomas and partner him with FDJ as a defensive midfielder tandem. And in 4-2-3-1 it will look like....

    ......................Suarez......................
    ...Griezmann......Messi...... Trincao....

    .........Thomas.......... F D J...............
    Alba.....Lenglet.......Pique.....Semedo

    And as I have said already, Griz and Trincao can advance from the flanks when needed. The beauty of 4-2-3-1- is that it can convert to 4-3-3 very smoothly several times in a game. This is what Borusia D. and Bayern has done in the Bundesliga.

  11. #6971
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    New interview:

    "At Ajax I had a different role, thats because we played with two controlling midfielders. Thats not the case here. I will have to adjust and I can still improve. Im at my best when im not the most attacking but also not the most defensive midfielder. "

    I have said this about him for a long time now. He isnt a DM nor a AM. He is more of a Xavi as he also stated a year ago when he was being compared to Busquets.

  12. #6972
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    Good coach can set him and Busqets work.

    Guardiola would find solution, valverde would not but i hooe so setien can.

  13. #6973
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    Quote Originally Posted by vuji_31 View Post
    Good coach can set him and Busqets work.

    Guardiola would find solution, valverde would not but i hooe so setien can.
    The only solution is Frenkie as a CM and Busi on the bench. That's what Pep would do, and any sane coach who values results before names.

  14. #6974
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    Busquets' distribution is just too good to bench, especially in Setien's tactic. De Jong is nowhere near him there.
    Last edited by Eshez; 8th June 2020 at 08:53 PM.

  15. #6975
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    They can play together. 2 cdm is not something new . Even valverde used it in 442