21 - Frenkie de Jong

M

MrBombastic

New member
boixos said:
[MENTION=26713]MrBombastic[/MENTION], I completely agree with your assessment. Frenkie is a player in the same dimension as Arthur. Both offer absolutely nothing going forward and are content with merely recycling possession.

Frenkie's performance against Valencia was one of the worst displays I've seen from a Barcelona midfielder in years. It was very reminiscent of the things you would see from Andre Gomes or Alex Song:
  • Completely unaware of where the ball and teammates are
  • Very hesitant when on the ball
  • Can barely decide who to pass to and when
  • Cannot make a pass between the lines unless it is very obvious (i.e. massive gaps of space left by the opponent as seen in Messi's first goal yesterday for example.)

I genuinely believe all of these attributes are an indication of poor footballing IQ. His constant indecisiveness shows that he lacks the speed to analyze what is going on the pitch. You put a man on him and he will struggle to perform, as seen in many La Liga and international games for us (Netherlands). This in my opinion is what seperates him from a great such as Busquets.

Unfortunately, Busquets is aging physically so he is also a liability. Ernesto Valverde saw this and that is why he signed a midfielder with stamina to share some of the defensive work. Paulinho and Vidal have proven to be very successful in Ernesto's setup. The third midfielder, Rakitic, was also very successful. He was the only other midfielder capable of contributing in the final third. The rest of the midfielders offered nothing game-changing, so Valverde sticked to the most reliable, decorated players he had available.

I think Frenkie will not live up to the hype nor pricetag unless he
i) plays in a setup with players constantly making runs
ii) plays with two world-class midfielders next to him
Click to expand...

i completely agree with you on Frenkie de Jong.
He doesn't have the IQ and speed of thinking. His eyes can't see depth. He is a 5 meter player.
The irony is that his best quality for a team is his positioning defending. It's very strange he has the ability to position and come in front of his opponents to steal the ball by reading the pass of the opponent. But when he has the ball he can't read it's just too much.

The problem with Busquets is not because of his age.
I think it's the same Busquets but Barcelona changed.
Let's say for the sake of argument that he had to cover 5 meter in the old Barcelona.
Now he needs to cover 20 meter in this barcelona. The lines in this barcelona are longer. The playing field is too long.
Busquets will suffer the first when the field is getting longer. Back in the days he just had to cover 5 meter and could win everything with his awareness and octopus legs.
Remember in 2014 with Spain in the world cup. Spain had also a long playing field and he suffered. He looked like the Busquets of now.
Barcelona now has less possesion and longer field which kills Busquets.
Barcelona has to buy good players or adapt their game.
Busquets will sufficate with such a long field.
 
Raketa10

Raketa10

Senior Member
MrBombastic said:
i'm not talking about final passes. i'm talking about
the momentum of the pass. Passing the ball with the right speed at the right time. De Jong has no passing skills.
I don't expect him to have a final pass.
Modric dribbles but follows up with a pass.
Even Modric give a lot of cross passes to the wingers or upcoming back to switch the play and create space.
Frenkie de Jong doesn't have view for more than 5 meter.
Modric off the ball movement is also a lot better.
He doesnt always moves to the ball like de Jong and has more positiong awareness.
I disagree with you about a DM player.
The most important thing of a defensive midfield player is his passing skills.
The speed and quality of passing.
Modric dribbles out when pressured for contra attack.
But if opponents don't pressure he passes the ball to Toni Kroos who dictates the passing.
Frenkie de Jong on DM is great when opponents pressure and he can dribble out of the pressure to give Barcelona air.
But when he has time and space he has no clue what to do with the ball.
Al lot of times he loses the ball when he gets man marked and pressured. that's because his brain is not fast enough.
His first thought is dribbling and his second thought is passing. That's a bad thing for a midfield player. The dribble should be the last option to create space for a CM.
You guys don't understand the difference in view and thinking of de Jong and Busquets.
People overrate de Jong because he has excellent ball control, dribbling skills and rotation with the ball.
The most important thing in football is what you do with the ball. That aspect is very poor with de Jong.
.
Click to expand...

Ok, let's brake this up.

Frenkie de Jong doesn't have view for more than 5 meter. - That's actually not true. Problem is we are playing in the way Messi picks up the ball in the middle and tries to do all on his own. Also as I said before to give the long ball you need to create space and make runs. Honestly none of our attackers are doing that.

Al lot of times he loses the ball when he gets man marked and pressured. that's because his brain is not fast enough. - Once again to be able to pass the ball to a free player players need to move which we are clearly not doing at the moment. He didn't have problems like that while he was playing for Ajax.

But when he has time and space he has no clue what to do with the ball. - again, off course he doesn't since we have no game plan except "pass the ball to Messi". I don't know if you ever played a football but majority of the game is about tactic's. Those things should be practiced and learned during training sessions. When and if you know where your teammate moves it's much easier to find him within few seconds. What we can see today with Barca is a pure chaos where in 90% of the game time we rely on Messi's inspiration.

You guys don't understand the difference in view and thinking of de Jong and Busquets. - This is perfect example. Just compare Busi under Pep and Busi now. Yes he is older but his passing skills are much worse now than before? Did he forget to pass? NO! It's just that our entire game has changed. Under Pep Busi had 2 or 3 passing solutions at once since players were open. Today when nobody moves and we have no game plan he simple tends to loose the ball very often.

In our current team everyone looks bad or worse than they should since we have no clear game plan and we are playing like shit. De Jong is a class player and immense talent but has the same problem as Griezmann who is much worse now than with ATM simply because we are playing like crap. In the end FDJ has 22 years and Luka at his age was still playing for Dinamo and was worse player than FDJ is right now. Thing is Luka improved immensely, he was constantly improving year after year until he reached Ballon d'Or level. Managers also need to influence players like Zidane, Mourinho and Redknapp influenced Modric. In the end we bought a player who was raised as a DM, who was the best midfielder of CL for 2018/19 season and we are using him now as a RCM/LCM!? For majority of time he is even occupying the space of a LW/RW!

FFS just look at his heat map during our last 3 games! We bought ourselves a DM and he is now occupying the space of Iniesta and we are wondering how the hell is he not performing? :facepalm:

1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg


Now look at this. His heat map while playing for Ajax in CL:

5.jpg
6.jpg
7.jpg

This is a perfect way to ruin a player. Put him in position which doesn't suit him at all and don't use his strengths so his weaknesses can be exposed. Same goes for Griezmann (and Coutinho before him) or maybe none of the 3 mentioned know how to play football?!?! Unbelievable stuff!!!

Imagine we played young Busi in position Frenkie is playing now?!?! Do you think he would succeed or some of you just have double standards for our players these days?!
 
Last edited:
M

MrBombastic

New member
Raketa10 said:
Ok, let's brake this up.

Frenkie de Jong doesn't have view for more than 5 meter. - That's actually not true. Problem is we are playing in the way Messi picks up the ball in the middle and tries to do all on his own. Also as I said before to give the long ball you need to create space and make runs. Honestly none of our attackers are doing that.

Al lot of times he loses the ball when he gets man marked and pressured. that's because his brain is not fast enough. - Once again to be able to pass the ball to a free player players need to move which we are clearly not doing at the moment. He didn't have problems like that while he was playing for Ajax.

But when he has time and space he has no clue what to do with the ball. - again, off course he doesn't since we have no game plan except "pass the ball to Messi". I don't know if you ever played a football but majority of the game is about tactic's. Those things should be practiced and learned during training sessions. When and if you know where your teammate moves it's much easier to find him within few seconds. What we can see today with Barca is a pure chaos where in 90% of the game time we rely on Messi's inspiration.

You guys don't understand the difference in view and thinking of de Jong and Busquets. - This is perfect example. Just compare Busi under Pep and Busi now. Yes he is older but his passing skills are much worse now than before? Did he forget to pass? NO! It's just that our entire game has changed. Under Pep Busi had 2 or 3 passing solutions at once since players were open. Today when nobody moves and we have no game plan he simple tends to loose the ball very often.

In our current team everyone looks bad or worse than they should since we have no clear game plan and we are playing like shit. De Jong is a class player and immense talent but has the same problem as Griezmann who is much worse now than with ATM simply because we are playing like crap. In the end FDJ has 22 years and Luka at his age was still playing for Dinamo and was worse player than FDJ is right now. Thing is Luka improved immensely, he was constantly improving year after year until he reached Ballon d'Or level. Managers also need to influence players like Zidane, Mourinho and Redknapp influenced Modric. In the end we bought a player who was raised as a DM, who was the best midfielder of CL for 2018/19 season and we are using him now as a RCM/LCM!? For majority of time he is even occupying the space of a LW/RW!

FFS just look at his heat map during our last 3 games! We bought ourselves a DM and he is now occupying the space of Iniesta and we are wondering how the hell is he not performing? :facepalm:

View attachment 8714
View attachment 8715
View attachment 8716


Now look at this. His heat map while playing for Ajax in CL:

View attachment 8717
View attachment 8718
View attachment 8719

This is a perfect way to ruin a player. Put him in position which doesn't suit him at all and don't use his strengths so his weaknesses can be exposed. Same goes for Griezmann (and Coutinho before him) or maybe none of the 3 mentioned know how to play football?!?! Unbelievable stuff!!!

Imagine we played young Busi in position Frenkie is playing now?!?! Do you think he would succeed or some of you just have double standards for our players these days?!
Click to expand...

all excuses for don't finding solutions.
Compare the quality passing of Busquets and de Jong as DM.
I don't think you've watched Ajax. Frenkie de Jong was not the build up passer. Schöne did the build up.
Ziyech and Tadic also dropped to midfield got the key passes up the pitch. Ajax also played with not a lot of movement in space but with midfield players in attacking.
Tadic and Ziyech move to the ball. Only Neres and sometimes Beek made runs.
The player who has the ball can force the runs. But nobdoy has trust in the passing skills of de Jong into space.
With the Jong you can't get read his timing of passing because he doesn't know what to do.

Yes Barcelona doesn't play well. But that's no excuse for simple basic passing. He just doesn't have it.
He was not even the best midfield player at Ajax. It was just a hype because his control and dribbles are of world level. But that's not enough for a midfield player especially at world level.
Passing, positioning is the most important for a midfield player.
 
Raketa10

Raketa10

Senior Member
MrBombastic said:
all excuses for don't finding solutions.
Compare the quality passing of Busquets and de Jong as DM.
I don't think you've watched Ajax. Frenkie de Jong was not the build up passer. Schöne did the build up.
Ziyech and Tadic also dropped to midfield got the key passes up the pitch. Ajax also played with not a lot of movement in space but with midfield players in attacking.
Tadic and Ziyech move to the ball. Only Neres and sometimes Beek made runs.
The player who has the ball can force the runs. But nobdoy has trust in the passing skills of de Jong into space.
With the Jong you can't get read his timing of passing because he doesn't know what to do.

Yes Barcelona doesn't play well. But that's no excuse for simple basic passing. He just doesn't have it.
He was not even the best midfield player at Ajax. It was just a hype because his control and dribbles are of world level. But that's not enough for a midfield player especially at world level.
Passing, positioning is the most important for a midfield player.
Click to expand...

:lol: WTF are you talking about?! You are repeating same things in every single post, not to mention your explanations and arguments are abysmal. Clearly you didn't watch his games. He was instrumental in almost every game Ajax played last season not to mention that Ziyech and Tadic did what they actually NEED TO DO since it's their job to do it! That's what we lack in our midfield. And you know why? BECAUSE WE USUALLY PLAY WITH 3 OR 2 DM in our team only to be able to incorporate Busi. Oh and there is one more thing, young Busi played with young Xavi and Iniesta and De Jong plays with old Busi and old Raki or Vidal or another "controller" Arthur. That's the same in your eyes I guess? :lol:

De Jong made some fabulous runs during last season where he showed he knows how to make a superb ball transition (he reminded us of Modric numerous of times). You probably don't understand the difference between the heat maps during his time with Ajax and now Barca so I have nothing more to say.

Oh and yes explain to me how come he played great for Ajax and how come half of Europe wanted him last year and how the hell was he named the best midfielder of 2018/19 season if he doesn't know how to pass the ball and doesn't know how to position himself? Probably all scouts know shit in comparison to you? :lol: Dude you came to this forum only for trolling. You have 6 posts and all of them in De Jong thread and that says a lot about you.
 
Last edited:
FCBfan22

FCBfan22

Senior Member
MrBombastic said:
all excuses for don't finding solutions.
Compare the quality passing of Busquets and de Jong as DM.
I don't think you've watched Ajax. Frenkie de Jong was not the build up passer. Schöne did the build up.
Ziyech and Tadic also dropped to midfield got the key passes up the pitch. Ajax also played with not a lot of movement in space but with midfield players in attacking.
Tadic and Ziyech move to the ball. Only Neres and sometimes Beek made runs.
The player who has the ball can force the runs. But nobdoy has trust in the passing skills of de Jong into space.
With the Jong you can't get read his timing of passing because he doesn't know what to do.

Yes Barcelona doesn't play well. But that's no excuse for simple basic passing. He just doesn't have it.
He was not even the best midfield player at Ajax. It was just a hype because his control and dribbles are of world level. But that's not enough for a midfield player especially at world level.
Passing, positioning is the most important for a midfield player.
Click to expand...

Busi in his prime had one of top 3 attacking midfielders of all time (Iniesta) and one of the top 3 (if not the best) playmaking midfielders of all time (Xavi) in front of him.

Xavi's ability to retain posession like no other and both players' ability to run into space made Busquets' life as a DM easier. Now, who do we have, if we play FDJ as a DM:

Arthur: Can retain posession, but doesn't make runs which release pressure from our DM.
Rakitić: As soon he is under a tad bit of pressure, he is in trouble. Only passes progressively 5% of the time these days.
Vidal: Makes runs, but can't retain posession and is somewhat positionally undisciplined.
Puig: 0 physicality, gets bullied easily.
Roberto: Makes runs, but forgot how to play as a Barca CM.

So, in short, Busi's passing was/is probably better. But the space that Xavi and Iniesta created made his passing much easier. Nowadays (yesterday's match is an exception) we have Leo and 9 cones o the field which Leo can pass to.


Also, that said, FDJ is the best passer next to Busi in our current midfield.
 
E

Eshez

New member
Arthur's a better passer than De Jong, or at least his ceiling actually seems quite high. Haven't seen much from De Jong in that department.
 
Z

Zidane82

Well-known member
What on earth are some of smoking ??

I hope you guys aren’t driving as well !!

FDJ is arguably one of the most naturally talented players I’ve seen over the last 50 years.. .. I have no idea why he came to us whilst we are in such a state
 
M

MrBombastic

New member
Raketa10 said:
:lol: WTF are you talking about?! You are repeating same things in every single post, not to mention your explanations and arguments are abysmal. Clearly you didn't watch his games. He was instrumental in almost every game Ajax played last season not to mention that Ziyech and Tadic did what they actually NEED TO DO since it's their job to do it! That's what we lack in our midfield. And you know why? BECAUSE WE USUALLY PLAY WITH 3 OR 2 DM in our team only to be able to incorporate Busi. Oh and there is one more thing, young Busi played with young Xavi and Iniesta and De Jong plays with old Busi and old Raki or Vidal or another "controller" Arthur. That's the same in your eyes I guess? :lol:

De Jong made some fabulous runs during last season where he showed he knows how to make a superb ball transition (he reminded us of Modric numerous of times). You probably don't understand the difference between the heat maps during his time with Ajax and now Barca so I have nothing more to say.

Oh and yes explain to me how come he played great for Ajax and how come half of Europe wanted him last year and how the hell was he named the best midfielder of 2018/19 season if he doesn't know how to pass the ball and doesn't know how to position himself? Probably all scouts know shit in comparison to you? :lol: Dude you came to this forum only for trolling. You have 6 posts and all of them in De Jong thread and that says a lot about you.
Click to expand...

don't get emotional and personal. I can do the same
thing to you.
This shows you are willing to bring any excuse for
his poor performances.
It's everybody fault except de Jong.
the excuses you make for de Jong you don't make
for Raketic, Vidal or Busquets.
Poor de Jong he is a victim of the system, the position,
his collegues. Next thing you will blame the guy who is taking care of the pitch.
Don't use double standards.
i don't think you've watched Ajax last year because
you are too emotional.
De jong does these transitions in contra attack.
Ajax was by far more dangerous in contra attack

That's how they won in Barnabeu. The first two goals were contra attacks. Frenkie de Jong had all the space to make runs.
Barcelona doesn't play like that.
Barcelona play in a smaller area higher up the pitch.

Can you explain to me what those heatmaps mean?
can you compare them and explain detailed what the difference is? i bet you don't know what a heatmap is.
is this heatmap when having the ball, not having the ball
or both? go ahaed explain what you wanted to say about those heat maps since you brought them up.
 
clemente

clemente

New member
Surprise surprise a troll gets banned now we have 2 new retards with under 10 posts praising Rakitic and shitting on De Jong, I don't know why admins just don't ban on IP
 
George_Costanza

George_Costanza

Active member
Raketa10 said:
Ok, let's brake this up.

Frenkie de Jong doesn't have view for more than 5 meter. - That's actually not true. Problem is we are playing in the way Messi picks up the ball in the middle and tries to do all on his own. Also as I said before to give the long ball you need to create space and make runs. Honestly none of our attackers are doing that.

Al lot of times he loses the ball when he gets man marked and pressured. that's because his brain is not fast enough. - Once again to be able to pass the ball to a free player players need to move which we are clearly not doing at the moment. He didn't have problems like that while he was playing for Ajax.

But when he has time and space he has no clue what to do with the ball. - again, off course he doesn't since we have no game plan except "pass the ball to Messi". I don't know if you ever played a football but majority of the game is about tactic's. Those things should be practiced and learned during training sessions. When and if you know where your teammate moves it's much easier to find him within few seconds. What we can see today with Barca is a pure chaos where in 90% of the game time we rely on Messi's inspiration.

You guys don't understand the difference in view and thinking of de Jong and Busquets. - This is perfect example. Just compare Busi under Pep and Busi now. Yes he is older but his passing skills are much worse now than before? Did he forget to pass? NO! It's just that our entire game has changed. Under Pep Busi had 2 or 3 passing solutions at once since players were open. Today when nobody moves and we have no game plan he simple tends to loose the ball very often.

In our current team everyone looks bad or worse than they should since we have no clear game plan and we are playing like shit. De Jong is a class player and immense talent but has the same problem as Griezmann who is much worse now than with ATM simply because we are playing like crap. In the end FDJ has 22 years and Luka at his age was still playing for Dinamo and was worse player than FDJ is right now. Thing is Luka improved immensely, he was constantly improving year after year until he reached Ballon d'Or level. Managers also need to influence players like Zidane, Mourinho and Redknapp influenced Modric. In the end we bought a player who was raised as a DM, who was the best midfielder of CL for 2018/19 season and we are using him now as a RCM/LCM!? For majority of time he is even occupying the space of a LW/RW!

FFS just look at his heat map during our last 3 games! We bought ourselves a DM and he is now occupying the space of Iniesta and we are wondering how the hell is he not performing? :facepalm:

View attachment 8714
View attachment 8715
View attachment 8716


Now look at this. His heat map while playing for Ajax in CL:

View attachment 8717
View attachment 8718
View attachment 8719

This is a perfect way to ruin a player. Put him in position which doesn't suit him at all and don't use his strengths so his weaknesses can be exposed. Same goes for Griezmann (and Coutinho before him) or maybe none of the 3 mentioned know how to play football?!?! Unbelievable stuff!!!

Imagine we played young Busi in position Frenkie is playing now?!?! Do you think he would succeed or some of you just have double standards for our players these days?!
Click to expand...

From the beginning, I thought he would be perfect in the DM position. Saying that he is still only 22 years old, and not finished product so him playing an advanced role might turn on to be good. We have to wait and see how he will develop in the next 5 months before saying it's a waste.
 
Vilarrubi

Vilarrubi

New member
serghei said:
:lol:

Man, with the quality of the new users, Forum de Amigos will have to do double shifts to keep up.
Click to expand...

Interesting how new users pop up at the same time, have opinions which differ a lot from the usual Barca fan and all seem to agree with each other......
 
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