21 - Frenkie de Jong

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gregorrin10

Senior Member
Really hope this is more or less a done deal now, i have no problem letting him stay in Ajax until the summer though, helping his home club possibly knock Madrid out of the CL, and really leaving on a good note from there, especially since they're in the knockout stages for the first time in years. And especially since EV and Raki are still here, hopefully both will be gone after this summer. I really dread a fantastic player like FDJ being managed by a bum like EV. So hopefully EV gets the sack or more probable, just decides to not renew and leave this summer, then after that FDJ can come in and hopefully be coached under a new manager, who actually knows what he's doing.

Alongside Arthur and possibly Puig, Alena and Oriol we would then have the new generation of world class midfield all set. Under the guidance/mentoring of Busquets for the first few years. I wouldn't mind if we kept Vidal for another year too, but i guess we'll sell him to China or South America too, and probably even get Rabiot too, even though there really is no need and i wish we didn't. FDJ is a generational talent and was born to play for Barca, you can see it all in his game, so he's a must get for me, while Rabiot is just the French Gomes really, but with an added poison, that is his entourage (mother), so i would much rather see Alena and Puig get a real chance alongside Arthur and De Jong instead. It is to early for Puig to get promoted though, that's why keeping Vidal, especially a player with a warrior mentality such as his, our young players could learn a lot from him in terms of that (while Busquets would take care of the technical bit) for another year would be much more beneficial than bringing in a second player from outside, which i think would be overkill, when we're trying to get Alena settled in and are also looking to promote Puig within the next 2 years. Vidal is the perfect player to have in this position, his positive mentality and hard working attitude being a good influence on our young midfielders, and also a player with an expiration date right up until Puig will be ready to be promoted to the 1st team.

I imagine once (if) we seal the deal for FDJ, we become strong favourites for MDL as well, since he and FDJ really want to continue at the same club, and their both first choice seems to be us...would be a dream to get both. They are gonna become world class in whichever club that they're gonna play in, i just wish that that's gonna be Barca.
 
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G

gasgas

Senior Member
........................ter stegen
Wague..upamecano...lenglet....Alba
..de jong........oriol..........arthur
..messi.......kane...dembele
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
gregorrin10 said:
Alongside Arthur and possibly Puig, Alena and Oriol we would then have the new generation of world class midfield all set. Under the guidance/mentoring of Busquets for the first few years.
Click to expand...

Post Pep, the only La Masia product who is good enough for Barca was Thiago.
And Roberto as a squad player.

Isn't it extremely highly unlikely than more than 1 out of Alena, Puig and Oriol will turn into squad/starter level for Barca?

4 years ago, we had lots of posts how we are set in attack for the next 10 years.
Sine back then we had promising Adama, Sandro, Munir, Dongou, Halilovic.
It seems that we won't need to buy a single forward for the next 10-12 years.
A few years later, not only that NONE of them is good enough for Barca, but none of them is nowhere near the level even of Uefa cup clubs.

This will sound like a blasphemy for majority of fans here, but Rabiot has statistically higher chances to make it at Barca than any of those La Masia kids mentioned here.

So, imo, instead of putting all eggs into one basket (Alena, Puig, Oriol), it is better to buy more "eggs" and see who will make it.
 
Givenchy

Givenchy

Senior Member
BBZ8800 said:
Post Pep, the only La Masia product who is good enough for Barca was Thiago.
And Roberto as a squad player.

Isn't it extremely highly unlikely than more than 1 out of Alena, Puig and Oriol will turn into squad/starter level for Barca?

4 years ago, we had lots of posts how we are set in attack for the next 10 years.
Sine back then we had promising Adama, Sandro, Munir, Dongou, Halilovic.
It seems that we won't need to buy a single forward for the next 10-12 years.
A few years later, not only that NONE of them is good enough for Barca, but none of them is nowhere near the level even of Uefa cup clubs.

This will sound like a blasphemy for majority of fans here, but Rabiot has statistically higher chances to make it at Barca than any of those La Masia kids mentioned here.

So, imo, instead of putting all eggs into one basket (Alena, Puig, Oriol), it is better to buy more "eggs" and see who will make it.
Click to expand...

BBZ how in the hell did you come to this conclusion? the only 'answer' i could think of is probably since EV is our manager and he hates youth and therefore wont play La Masia kids
 
Joan

Joan

Well-known member
Givenchy said:
BBZ how in the hell did you come to this conclusion? the only 'answer' i could think of is probably since EV is our manager and he hates youth and therefore wont play La Masia kids
Click to expand...

It's a very logical conclusion. Most La Masia players never make it in the top quality football. Rabiot has already shown he's a skilled player able to perform on the highest level.
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Givenchy said:
BBZ how in the hell did you come to this conclusion? the only 'answer' i could think of is probably since EV is our manager and he hates youth and therefore wont play La Masia kids
Click to expand...

Some indications to consider:

Number of Nt matches for youth Nt teams:
Xavi 57
Rabiot 53
Iniesta 45
Thiago 42
Fabregas 42
Busquets 3

Age 21, number of club senior matches:
Fabregas 198 matches for Arsenal
Rabiot 118 matches for Psg
Xavi 100 matches for Barca
Iniesta 72 matches for Barca
Thiago 65 matches for Barca
Busquets 41 matches for Barca

Alena 31 youth Nt matches
Oriol 27 matches
Puig 0

Club matches:
Alena 13 matches for Barca
Oriol 0
Puig 1

Alena will be 21 in 3 days.
Oriol will be 20 this Month.

My point is, guys who made it from La Masia plus Rabiot:
1. All played an important role in youth Nt teams
2. Some were worlds best young players like Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas
3. All of them played huge amount of club matches by the age of 20 and 21

The only exception is Busi.
Now, look at Alena, Oriol and Puig.
Puig is not a youth Nt player at all.
That raises eyebrowses right away.
How is he supposed to make it at Barca if he is not among best youth Spanish midfielders at all. Yet, Xavi and Iniesta were the best youngsters in the world.

Further, matches for a club.
You will blame only Ev.
But do you think that EV is the only reason why 21 years old Alena hasn't played 100 or 120 senior matches for Barca already, like Xavi or Rabiot?

So, my point is: statistically a very low amount of La Masia players reach Barca's level.
And further, some objective stats and indicators (youth Nt teams, number of matches for Barca in the early age and the famous eye test) are implying that all 3 out of Alena, Puig and Oriol are way below/behind guys who have made it at Barca.

Of course, there are always Late bloomers or weird cases like Busi and Pedro.
But objectively, when you remove Barca's glasses, Alena, Puig and Oriol don't look nowhere as near as good as our forum is hyping them.

So once again, no matter how weird it sounds, if even ONE out of Alena, Puig, Oriol will have a better career than Rabiot, that will be a huge success and it will mean that we have finally found a nice local midfielder.

But... we have already seen that people lost a part of hope in Alena.
Some of his skills are questionable plus he is not a true CM.
Puig has a very questionable physique and zero Nt matches.
And suddenly it is way clearer why stats are so cruel towards La Masia kids...
 
Givenchy

Givenchy

Senior Member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

so you rather we sign a technically limited troublesome midfielder with high wages instead of giving a promising (note: promising, never said next Xaviesta) home grown la masia product the chance to prove himself?

our current midfield of: Vidal, Busi, Rakitic, Alena, Arthur and possibly Frankie. bar Alena, who exactly does Rabiot bench? imo Vidal, Raki and Busi are easily superior and Frankie/Arthur have alot more potential.

you can point of Rabiots national team experience but as of 2019, hes nowhere near starting for them and its not only down to his poor attitude. this smells like an opportunity 'too good to pass up' on a free but this will end up with Alena and co leaving and the la masia exodus/draught will continue. would EV of given a young Xavi/Iniesta the play time? i doubt it sadly. we took risks in the past and they paid off, we gave youth a chance and from that we got a golden generation. 2019 and we have a safety first manager, barely any faith in youth and shit playstyle that sends most fans to sleep

fwiw i hope Rabiot proves us wrong, matures and becomes a key player but i just don't see it, maybe this current EV-style Barca but i have hopes we ditch him in the summer
 
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BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Givenchy said:
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

so you rather we sign a technically limited troublesome midfielder with high wages instead of giving a promising (note: promising, never said next Xaviesta) home grown la masia product the chance to prove himself?

our current midfield of: Vidal, Busi, Rakitic, Alena, Arthur and possibly Frankie. bar Alena, who exactly does Rabiot bench? imo Vidal, Raki and Busi are easily superior and Frankie/Arthur have alot more potential.

you can point of Rabiots national team experience but as of 2019, hes nowhere near starting for them and its not only down to his poor attitude. this smells like an opportunity 'too good to pass up' on a free but this will end up with Alena and co leaving and the la masia exodus/draught will continue. would EV of given a young Xavi/Iniesta the play time? i doubt it sadly. we took risks in the past and they paid off, we gave youth a chance and from that we got a golden generation. 2019 and we have a safety first manager, barely any faith in youth and shit playstyle that sends most fans to sleep

fwiw i hope Rabiot proves us wrong, matures and becomes a key player but i just don't see it, maybe this current EV-style Barca but i have hopes we ditch him in the summer
Click to expand...

You are biased again.
Look at your sentence:
1. technically limited
2. troublesome midfielder
3. high wages

So, when you mentioned Rabiot, you mentioned 3 flaws in one sentence.
While for these 3 you mentioned only:
1. promising players

Why not saying, equally as you said in Rabiot's case:
Alena:
1. already 21 and only 13 senior matches
2. a player without a clear position in our team
3. a player without clear strengths and virtues
4. a player with a questionable first touch

Puig:
1. a player with an insanely questionable physique for the highest level of football
2. a player not recognized by any youth NT coach which is quite weird

The point of my post, majority of you guys are always leaning towards players who have way smaller chances to make it (let's say 10-15%, this is pulled from my ass, but you get the point, based on our La Masia history in the last 30 years) compared to a guy who has already made it on the highest level.

What is worse, some guys are saying: we are "set for the future".
Ok, I will not say that chances for these 3 of making here are 0%, since everything is possible in life.
But chances are close to 0%.
Even that 2 out of these 3 (Alena, Puig, Oriol) will become Barca's level of players are probably extremely close to 0%.

Further, I have wrote youth NT teams and senior matches so that you guys can compare their current level with the level of Xavi, Iniesta and Cesc/Thiago/Rabiot in their age.
Let's say that we won't compare players with Xavi-Iniesta since they were one of a kind.
But still, Alena-Puig-Oriol are miles, miles, miles behind in their development even behind guys Fabregas, Thiago, Rabiot compared to their age 20 and 21.

Just try to remove Barca's glasses, and imagine that RM has one Riki Puig in their team.
And that you are reading about him, and you see stats: 0 youth NT matches, extremely weak physique, playing in a 2nd division, 0 matches for A team.
Would you be scared of that new RM's prospect?
Lol, of course not.
You would say: meh. Just another talent with whom probably absolutely nothing will happen.

I have wrote a lot of times, it is NOT about particular players.
Our fans have the human need to ALWAYS have 1-2 young players who will create sweet dreams and hopes.

So: if there is really the next Xavi at La Masia=people will say: HE is the next Xavi!
But also, if there is absolutely NO ONE at La Masia currently, people will again find 1 guy, who looks the best in this moment and say again: HE could be the next Xavi!

Just imagine that Alena/Puig/Oriol disappear tomorrow and that aliens take them.
Do you know what would happen?
Our fans would find "the new gem" in a space of 1 Month.
They would just move their attention/love/hopes towards the next best guy (or currently, the 4th best La Masia midfielder).
And they would say: we don't need Rabiot/insert any new player, we need to give chances to THIS, 4th guy from La Masia.
Let's be honest, this is exactly what would happen...

For years, we have been reading Alena this, Alena that.
And when we have seen him playing a few times this year and when we have seen that he is quite meh for now, people just turned their attention to Puig immediately.
Isn't it weird?
If Puig will play badly, do you know what people will do? They will just say: ok Alena is meh, ok Puig didn't make it, but we have a guy who is better than all of them: Oriol! This guy is way different, he is a true real deal!

Imo, you just have to realize that skills and potential of Alena/Puig/Oriol/Insert every future La Masia kid are overhyped by probably 200-300%.

This is why I don't like posts: we shouldn't sign AN ACTUAL player so that we could develop players who are extremely questionable and overhyped (and yet, who's current development don't look nowhere near as shiny).
So, this is not about Rabiot, this is about any ACTUAL proven midfielder.
Should we buy Rabiot and maybe screw chances for Alena/Puig? Of course.
Should we buy Frenkie and screw chances for Alena/Puig? Of course.
Should we buy Ndombele and screw chances for Alena/Puig? Of course.
Should we buy some 4th or 5th guy of similar ACTUAL skills and screw chances for Alena/Puig? Of course.

Just imagine if we didn't buy Neymar, Suarez, Coutinho, Dembele, Paco and other guys in the last and we had waited for Munir, Sandro, Adama, Dongou for 5 years.
We wouldn't win a CL in 2015 and we wouldn't win any La Liga in the last 4-5 years.

Imagine if we had said no to Neymar, because we had an amazing potential in Adama.
And Neymar's arrival could have killed Adama's chances.
In the end, Neymar didn't kill Adama's chances.
Adama would have never made it here, no matter what.
Or imagine if we hadn't bought Suarez to develop Sandro and Munir as CFs.

To be totally objective, the most realistic chance is that both:
1. Rabiot
2. Alena
3. Puig
4. Oriol
= will all fail here

But, instead of putting all eggs in one basket, it is better to have 3-4-5-6 guys and hope that 1 of them will make it.

But the idea: let's not buy players and let's "stop" the development of our club since we need to wait what will happen with Alena/Puig is beyond crazy for my taste.
If Alena will set the world on fire, we will soon sell Raki, Vidal, and Busi will be gone.
His only opponents in our team will be Arthur, Frenkie and Rabiot.
And again, as always, 1 or 2 out of Rabiot/Arthur/Frenkie will fail. It is highly unlikely that all 3 will make it and stay here for 5 years.

So, even if Alena will make it, we will have only 4 young midfielders.
And in reality, 1 or 2 out of Frenkie/Arthur/Rabiot will fail and be sold in 2 years.

2019: Rabiot, Frenkie
2018: Arthur, Vidal, Coutinho
2017:
2016: Gomes, Denis
2015: Arda
2014: Rakitic

That is 9 midfielders bought in the last 5 years.
Now, look at Rakitic, Arda, Gomes, Denis, Coutinho, Arthur, Vidal:
= 7 players
= 0 reached Godlike level of Xavi, Iniesta, Busi
= 1 turned into a starter (Rakitic)
= 2 are between being a starter and a squad player currently (Vidal and Arthur)

So, out of 7 midfield signings, we hit the "jackpot" and found a starter in only 1 player Rakitic.
And we found two squad players Vidal&Arthur for now.
So, in the last 5 years:
1. a chance that the next midfield signing will be a starter: 1/7=14%
2. a chance that the next midfield signing will be a starter or a squad player (a success to some extent): 3/7=43%
3. a chance that the next midfield signing will be a total failure: 4/7=57%

Now, let's go back to Frenkie.
Do you think that he is a sure thing? Fine, numbers from the last 5 years say that only 14% of midfielders turned into starters.
But let's say that Frenkie is different and that he is "a sure thing" even though such things don't exist in football.
Let's move to Rabiot then. His chances are probably similar to these numbers from above.
He probably won't be a starter, and he probably has 30:70 chances to end as a sub or as a failure.

But also, you need to look at Alena/Puig/Oriol with the same eyes.
Do you know how low are their chances of making it here?

So, once again, we should buy A LOT of available players and and buy as many "lottery tickets" as we can.
And then, out of Arthur/Rabiot/Frenkie/Alena/Puig/Oriol, 1 or 2 will turn into starters, 1-2 will be squad players, 2-3-4 will fail and turn horrible.

This is Barca, 99% of players are nowhere near as good for Barca.
Let's not stop our development as a club for single players who's chances for making it here are extremely low, just because people are emotional and biased towards those La Masia kids.
 
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