Lautaro Martinez

Respekt_III said:

You are being hypocritical here, the whole structure of the team, the width and the lack of penetration with him in the team is evident yet you chose to ignore it when discussing Griezman but gladly mention the actual changing parameters of the team in refrence to the Messi and Suarez comment.

The guy has undeniably been a flop to date, not quite coutinho levels but close.

Secondly running a lot doesn't guarantee you wining games, you have to have the instincts and finishing ability, if you believe that Greizman and Martinez have that fair enough but i don't, and neither do some of the other posters. I could elaborate further but i cant be fucked.

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He is not used well. But he is arguably a world class player. So, when assessing Griezmann, you have 3 options. Top player, almost world class, and world class. Bad, or average, or crap, are not part of the conversation when discussing Griezmann.

Then we can talk about how he is used. And how this impacts his performances. And here some problems appear. But his quality as a player was never in doubt and is not to this day.

mc_lovin said:

Dont know what Messi983 wrote and I am too lazy to look, but Martinez is not the reason for an unbalanced formation. Messi and Griezmann say hi. Ridiculous to fault Martinez for that.

As for Haaland/Werner: I seriously doubt you watched a lot of Werner, hes a terrible fit. Haaland is not possible - I dont think he pictures himself in blaugrana. His preferences are quite clear.

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TLDR: The issue is that he wont solve the problem it will only exacerbate it because saurez, Messi and 100m+ signings have to play.


As for plans and preferences apparently these players all supported the rivals of the team they played for.
Modric - Barca Fan
Isco - Barca Fan
Neymar - Madrid
Harry Kane - Arsenal
and so on.

Respekt_III said:

TLDR: The issue is that he wont solve the problem it will only exacerbate it because saurez, Messi and 100m+ signings have to play.

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So, accept Griezmann-Suarez-Messi next season then? There is no hope.

I get the Haaland vs Lautaro sentiment, but its preference. We badly need a CF sooner rather than later (see this season).

serghei said:

He is not used well. But he is arguably a world class player. So, when assessing Griezmann, you have 3 options. Top player, almost world class, and world class. Bad, or average, or crap, are not part of the conversation when discussing Griezmann.

Then we can talk about how he is used. And how this impacts his performances. And here some problems appear. But his quality as a player was never in doubt and is not to this day.

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We all knew he wasn't going to be used well; he didnt really have a role in the team before he signed and thats why so many of us were against the signing. The issue is we have to judge him on his actual output here, we know why his contribution hasn't been optimal. If you buy a player but that player cant contribute to the team for what ever reason then that transfer will be a failure.

mc_lovin said:

So, accept Griezmann-Suarez-Messi next season then? There is no hope.
I get the Haaland vs Lautaro sentiment, but its preference. We badly need a CF sooner rather than later (see this season).

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I most definitely want suarez out and without hesitation I'd take Lautaro if he was priced in the region of 50-70m.

Respekt_III said:

We all knew he wasn't going to be used well; he didnt really have a role in the team before he signed and thats why so many of us were against the signing. The issue is we have to judge him on his actual output here, we know why his contribution hasn't been optimal. If you buy a player but that player cant contribute to the team for what ever reason then that transfer will be a failure.




I most definitely want suarez out and without hesitation I'd take Lautaro if he was priced in the region of 50-70m.

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Griezmann has contributed.

One of few players that can play with the intensity off the ball in way other top clubs do and has scored 14 assisted 4. Virtually all of those contributions have been important as well.

He doesnt suit LW but he has been a threat in behind but is not found enough.

Not worth 120m to play left wing and as part of team build up he looks out of sorts at times but to say hasnt contributed is false.

JamDav1982 said:

Griezmann has contributed.

One of few players that can play with the intensity off the ball in way other top clubs do and has scored 14 assisted 4. Virtually all of those contributions have been important as well.

He doesnt suit LW but he has been a threat in behind but is not found enough.

Not worth 120m to play left wing and as part of team build up he looks out of sorts at times but to say hasnt contributed is false.

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I should clarify then, his contributions haven't matched the investment made in him, not even close imo.

Respekt_III said:

I should clarify then, his contributions haven't matched the investment made in him, not even close imo.

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What would it take to match it or even go close?

JamDav1982 said:

What would it take to match it or even go close?

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Unless he plays a more creative role behind the striker i don't see him being able to "contribute", He needs to be more of a threat in attack and be somewhat of a creative outlet on the wing. It seems to me he plays it fairly safe doesn't really take risks and most definitely doesn't try to beat his man (well lets be honest he can't). He has the potential to "contribute" in a team without Messi and Suarez.

Respekt_III said:

Unless he plays a more creative role behind the striker i don't see him being able to "contribute", He needs to be more of a threat in attack and be somewhat of a creative outlet on the wing. It seems to me he plays it fairly safe doesn't really take risks and most definitely doesn't try to beat his man (well lets be honest he can't). He has the potential to "contribute" in a team without Messi and Suarez.

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In terms of goals/assist or important role in trophies what would it take?

He is never going to be a dribbler on the wing. He will be a player that works as hard defensively as anyone in the team and try to make runs in behind when teams are high and come central to try and get goals when teams sit deep.

That is what he will be for Barca. Within that what does it take for him to have a good season? Even outwith his price.

JamDav1982 said:

In terms of goals/assist or important role in trophies what would it take?

He is never going to be a dribbler on the wing. He will be a player that works as hard defensively as anyone in the team and try to make runs in behind when teams are high and come central to try and get goals when teams sit deep.

That is what he will be for Barca. Within that what does it take for him to have a good season? Even outwith his price.

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Don't know how you expect me to answer this really. It would have to be both but at the same time the manner in which we play and achieve those goals has to be also be taken into consideration.

What you've described is a James milner type player, not someone you'd consider a 120m signing for Barcelona. For me unless he scores a number of goals, racks up a few assists and genuinely contributes to the team synergy, he will be classed a failure (the fee is huge factor ).
Edit:
I should probably elaborate on team synergy but it's 4am and I have work in less than 5 hours.

Respekt_III said:

Don't know how you expect me to answer this really. It would have to be both but at the same time the manner in which we play and achieve those goals has to be also be taken into consideration.

What you've described is a James milner type player, not someone you'd consider a 120m signing for Barcelona. For me unless he scores a number of goals, racks up a few assists and genuinely contributes to the team synergy, he will be classed a failure (the fee is huge factor ).
Edit:
I should probably elaborate on team synergy but it's 4am and I have work in less than 5 hours.

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It is not even remotely like James Milner role other than Milner being fit enough to get up and down pitch.

If Barca win the league or the CL Griezmann will have been a big part in it and will have had a good season.

Worth 120m? Probably not even in that scenario but would be a good season nonetheless.

Barca at least now have someone to run in behind even though dont use it enough as team moves ball too slowy from midfield and looks to Messi too often.

Respekt_III said:

Your fanboy-ism is eerily similar to those who strongly advocate for the return of Neymar.

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Umm, no. I cant see the reference with one who is almost past his prime, fucked us over and the player that is young and yet to enter his best years, in a position that we actually need

Respekt_III said:

Suarez is the last person i want to see in leading the line.

Werner 14 apps - 7 goals
Haaland 9apps - 10 goals

so i see them as being fairly similar in their scoring rates (ignoring haaland) except they're half the price with Werner also playing for an inferior side.

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I like both of them too, but werner playing for inferior side is a big laugh. Werner plays in the system where every player knows their duty, bunch of 23 year olds under a what it seems great manager for developing young players. Lautaro plays in 3-5-2 lmao. Haaland is a beast, no doubt about that.


Look, we are linked with lautaro and im all in for that considering that suarez is declining heavily, i think we can all agree that we dont want to depend next season on suarez in attack, so lautaro, werner or haaland - im hyped if any of them come.
Lautaro is a south american and i think he would adapt the best. My opinion, not some fanboyism.

Riordon said:

Think a lot of this Haaland/Martinez debate comes down to how people want us to play. I have for a long time accepted that the tiki-taka we saw under Pep is something we won't see for a long time. Everything was just right then: the president, the manager, the players.

Eventually I would like us to play maybe more like Bayern or Real especially in Europe. Or the way we played under Rijkaard. Or maybe our 08/09 season before Pep went full tiki-taka. Exciting offensive football, with elements of it all: counterattack, crossing, combinations etc etc.

It is just easier to buy players who fit these systems and everything dont have to be 100% ideal for us to win a CL. When we win a CL these days, its need to be a historical good season.

This is why I advocate for players like Haaland, Havertz, Sane, Rashford upfront with guys like De Jong, Arthur, Guimaraes in the middle of the park.

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Congrats bro. Very good post. I have been saying this for a long time. Barca need to start changing its system and playing style from now. Not waiting for the post Messi era.

Lautaro is not exactly scoring or assisting against top teams for Argentina. I worry about how much weight we should put into how he combines with Messi in a lower level and even slower code of football.

If you look at the formations at Lautaro combined with Messi then you can see that those styles of play will suffer in club football.

The majority of the games they played together is either a:-

1) 442 with double pivot and Lautaro-Messi upfront (ie- Valverde ball). With our current squad (and rumoured outgoings considered) we could be something like this.

------- Stegen --------
Roberto - Pique - Lenglet - Alba
--- Busquets - de Jong ---
Trincao/Dembele/Griezmann/Some midfielder? ----------- Ansu/Dembele/Griezmann/Some midfielder?
------ Messi - Lautaro/Suarez ------

2) 442 diamond with Messi behind the forwards in a free role. This is probably the lineup Messi would want as he a) doesn't need to run and b) has Suarez in the lineup.

------- Stegen --------
Roberto - Pique - Lenglet - Alba
--- Busquets ---
------ Arthur?(Pjanic?) -- de Jong -------
---- Messi -----
----- Lautaro - Suarez -----


Basically, there is an F ton of new acquisitions needed for any type of utopian lineup where we are enabling Messi to be in an attack on his terms with Suarez and Lautaro.

Because the rest of the amigos don't have the legs for it. Meanwhile this type of setup in club football has been pretty much dead since 2007.

160mil for Coutinho - no place in the current lineup - labelled a flop
120mil for Griezmann - no place in the current lineup - labelled a flop
110mil for Martinez - no place in the current lineup - labelled a flop?


Suarez and Messi are going nowhere. Martinez won't suddenly break up the two bum buddies so he will be playing on the wing, pressing, tracking back doing exactly what Griezmann is doing while the formers walk around taking it easy

if Barto could actually see past his raging hard on for south american players, we may actually be able to improve the team without risking bankrupting the club