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Thread: Catalan referendum

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAK View Post
    No, he deferred a declaration of independence and basically told Madrid the ball is in your court. If not then we'll declare for independence in a few weeks anyway.
    Don't think so, there is nothing Madrid will do that will satisfy them, short of allowing them to secede. Therefore Madrid will do nothing. Unless like I said earlier, the true intentions of the vote was to force Madrid to grant them more autonomy and power etc.
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  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    Don't think so, there is nothing Madrid will do that will satisfy them, short of allowing them to secede. Therefore Madrid will do nothing. Unless like I said earlier, the true intentions of the vote was to force Madrid to grant them more autonomy and power etc.
    IIRC there was an agreement with government around 2010 that was satisfactory for both but supreme coart (or whatever its name is) has ruled it. What they want probably is to find a way to get that. a more autonomy will settle this almost for good.
    Or that is at least my understanding for it

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    Don't think so, there is nothing Madrid will do that will satisfy them, short of allowing them to secede. Therefore Madrid will do nothing. Unless like I said earlier, the true intentions of the vote was to force Madrid to grant them more autonomy and power etc.
    They'll likely agree a new fiscal deal like the Basques did. Generally you are right, Catalonian politicians do hammer the indipendence-drums every few years, cause a bit of chaos and then get some power, money and gather votes for the reelection. That's how politics work.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yannik View Post
    They'll likely agree a new fiscal deal like the Basques did. Generally you are right, Catalonian politicians do hammer the indipendence-drums every few years, cause a bit of chaos and then get some power, money and gather votes for the reelection. That's how politics work.
    It only kicked off like this after the financial crisis and a deal for more autonomy got struck down.

    Such crisises brings a wave of nationalism.

    Both Spain and Catalunya have seen it in their right. So have other European countries

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    So Puigdemont backed down from declaring independence and instead called for negotiations with Madrid. Negotiations? What negotiations? Certainly Madrid will not negotiate for Catalonia's succession. More autonomy for Catalonia? Less money sent to Madrid? So the whole vote thing was just a bargaining chip used to force Madrid to yield more power to Catalonia? And it backfired, with Madrid condemning his speech and not willing to yield at all.

    I have no dog in this fight and I have no preference of their independence or not but I felt this whole thing was managed very poorly. Initially he was supposed to declare independence within 48 hours after the result of the vote came back. After Madrid threatened to dissolve the Catalan government and the EU turning their backs on them the separatists basically chickened out. The supposed declaration was pushed out to today. And his speech was postponed by more than an hour as the Catalan separatists sought some last-minute mediation. This whole thing made Puigdemont and his fellow Catalan separatists in the Catalan government look like fools. Did they even have a plan? Did they not foresee resistance from both Madrid and Brussels?
    This is not about "chickening out".

    This is about trying to gain leverage, time, and keeping the peace. Had he declared independence there would be negative repercussions and chaos. Had he backed down completely, there would also be chaos as the separatists would have rioted.

    This was the best option to de-escalate the situation imo.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alik View Post
    This is not about "chickening out".

    This is about trying to gain leverage, time, and keeping the peace. Had he declared independence there would be negative repercussions and chaos. Had he backed down completely, there would also be chaos as the separatists would have rioted.

    This was the best option to de-escalate the situation imo.
    But what is the path forward for the separatists? Do they genuinely see a path forward toward independence? I personally don't. Or they are really just trying to get Madrid to concede more power to them?

    The thing is, they should have seen this (reactions from Madrid and Brussels) coming before they planned the vote. So much bravado before and immediately after the vote and now this, that contrast is ironic.
    Last edited by Luftstalag14; 11th October 2017 at 12:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    But what is the path forward for the separatists? Do they genuinely see a path forward toward independence? I personally don't. Or they are really just trying to get Madrid to concede more power to them?
    I don't see a path toward independence either. I think aggressively pushing for it after the highly irregular referendum on the 1st of October was a mistake. They had won a lot of sympathy that day, but lost it the moment they started mentioning the words "unilateral declaration of independence" - which I think was a mistake and why I think Puigdemont is now right in trying to de-escalate.

    In my opinion it's silly to push for it with a voting turnout of 43%. I also think most separatists would consider a deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    The thing is, they should have seen this (reactions from Madrid and Brussels) coming before they planned the vote. So much bravado before and immediately after the vote and now this, that contrast is ironic.
    They might not have expected Madrid's violent response on the referendum day. The turnout might have been a lot higher then. In case of a violent response, they might have expected more support from the international community.

    A unilateral declaration of independence after a 43% turnout, with no international support is not one they wanted. The primary objective to which they have been striving is a free and fair referendum, like the one Scotland had.

    These things are tricky and we should be glad reason rules over bravado. I agree this has not been managed well, but yesterday the Catalan leader did the right thing.

  8. #143
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  9. #144
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    What a mess. So Madrid refuses to deal and Catalonia might end up with less power and autonomy than before the referendum? Or once a new election is held and supposedly the separatists are chased out of power, a new government will get these back? To place Catalonia under the direct control of Madrid indefinitely would be a nightmare scenario.
    Last edited by Luftstalag14; 11th October 2017 at 07:24 PM.
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    If Madrid takes away Catalonia's self governing rights shit will hit the fan even more. But they are crazy enough to do it.

    Will be an interesting couple of weeks.

  11. #146
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    Hmm last I checked, the other day, the Catalan government was open to discussions/negotiations with the Spanish parliament, right? If they sack the regional government it will definitely backfire on Madrid.

  12. #147
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    It just hit me yesterday. Why can we play in epl, ligue 1 etc if we aren't part of their country but not play in la if catalonia isn't part of spain?

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neymessi View Post
    It just hit me yesterday. Why can we play in epl, ligue 1 etc if we aren't part of their country but not play in la if catalonia isn't part of spain?
    well its not a natural law that you cannot play in a country league if youre not part of the country, its just (human) law, which you can change, if you want
    "There is no sin except stupidity." (Oscar Wilde)

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Flaco View Post


    Fascist cocksuckers.